Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

ilvl capped Level 50 dungeons?Follow

#1 Oct 01 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
This is a random thought that came to mind after reading through complaints about overgeared players, but how do you people feel if the level 50 dungeons also had an ilevel cap on gear? So if your gear is above the cap for the zone, the higher pieces would be automatically synced down to the stats of a more appropriate level item for the run.

For example, using some of the current dungeons/trials/fights:

CM/Praetorium/Wanderer's Palace: ilevel 55
Amdapor Keep/Ifrit/Chimera/Hydra: ilevel 60
Garuda/Titan: ilevel 70

We already know the mechanic to sync item levels down is in the game with how level sync works anyway.

Any thoughts?

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 6:43pm by Ravashack
#2 Oct 01 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
***
3,450 posts
Quote:
Any thoughts?


Why?
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#3 Oct 01 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Any thoughts?


Why?


It was partly a reaction to people complaining about over-geared players farming zones with under-geared or appropriately geared players.

It was also partly a reaction to people making fun of those who shout for over-geared players for a fight -- especially when the person yelling doesn't fit his/her own criteria.
#4 Oct 01 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
53 posts
I still don't understand why would you want this to be implemented D: , I hate being gimped (I guess that's why I don't like GW2)
#5 Oct 01 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,084 posts
I'm pretty much against arbitrarily capping as the harm it does seem to outweigh the niche good.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#6 Oct 01 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Toyototoyo wrote:
I still don't understand why would you want this to be implemented D: , I hate being gimped (I guess that's why I don't like GW2)


I haven't put it in as an actual suggestion. But given the tools that are already available, it sounds like something that is going to eventually come up, even if I don't say anything.
#7 Oct 01 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,653 posts
Yeah I can't see this happening, you'd be effectively be making people's runs slower. Given how many times the average 50 is going to run CM/AK, it just wouldn't fly. People would quit en-masse and it would be a PR disaster. It's already too much of a grind.

Aside from that it doesn't solve any real issues that I've seen out there in game. Now, having a minimum iLvl is a very good idea. You don't hinder people who've put the time in, and you reduce the chances of the entire run being a waste due to under geared players.

Having said all that, the standard in DF is improving, it's been a while since I've actually had what I'd class as a "bad" group. I think the last person who was under-prepared for AK actually came from the FC.
____________________________
I tell you, we are here on Earth to **** around, and don’t let anybody tell you different.
#8 Oct 01 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,450 posts
Why gear up if gear is useless?

Overgearing and steamrolling content is one of the ways people know their character has increased in power. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#9 Oct 01 2013 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
I could see AK having an ilvl55 cap. that's it. not necessary though plenty of people think it is /shrug

edit: nevermind, i misread OP. no just no. bad idea, not fun at all, no thanks.


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#10 Oct 02 2013 at 1:11 AM Rating: Excellent
**
640 posts
I'm all for having iLvl cap on PVP related content so I don't end up fighting a iLvl 90 PLD as iLvl50 WAR.
#11 Oct 02 2013 at 2:05 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:

Why gear up if gear is useless?

Overgearing and steamrolling content is one of the ways people know their character has increased in power. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2


Of course. But every time you hit level sync in a FATE or go into a dungeon that's not intended for your level, your gear DOES sync down with you in the first place. It's practically an expected consequence now.

I mean, if gear is really useless in an game environment with synced gear, why are people still gearing up?

After all, we are already playing in an environment with synced gear in FFXIV. Yes, it's blended in with syncing your level or some other "level appropriate" reason but it's practically an accepted form of practice now. It's easy to verify too. Just walk into a FATE, look at your stats, sync, and then change to another lower-level-but-higher-than-the-synced-level item with a common stat. No change in the common stat if the items were boosting them high enough, regardless of the quality of the item.

------------------

I am not saying I want or don't want it to happen. I'm purposely trying to keep my opinion out of the thought as much as possible, because I want to be as objective about it as possible. But so far, the only content I can think of that's not synced in some way are field mobs. After all, even the level 50 content is technically synced. We're just not actually above the maximum level for it to kick in yet. Once we are...
#12 Oct 02 2013 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
***
1,112 posts
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/87509-Gear-level-the-final-nail-in-the-games-coffin.?p=1258750#post1258750

Camate, SE Rep wrote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#13 Oct 02 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
4,506 posts
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/87509-Gear-level-the-final-nail-in-the-games-coffin.?p=1258750#post1258750

Camate, SE Rep wrote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.

Bad idea though. I'd rather have a cap in place than a requirement. As a healer or a tank, having a decent ilvl weapon for HM Ifrit, Garuda and Titan helps, but it certainly shouldnt be a requirement. Knowing SE they'll make it so you need to HAVE Ifrit's weapon before you can proceed to Garuda, then spam that endlessly till you have Garuda's weapon before you're even allowed to do Titan... I can imagine a DD needing a certain amount of power behind them, but a healer or tank? Lets make the shortage of those two jobs even bigger by restricting their access.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by KojiroSoma
____________________________
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
#14 Oct 02 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
*
129 posts
Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:58am by Furiousnixon
____________________________
- The artist usually known as Angrynixon
#15 Oct 02 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,112 posts
My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players? I mean, if I have 7 beefcake players who are willing to carry a fresh 50 through a dungeon well beyond them to get them equipped quickly, who cares?

Similarly though, no one likes turning up to a dungeon and seeing someone so out of their depth that you know they're going to be a liability even with a good head on their shoulders.

Its a tricky balance to find, to be sure.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:14am by Kordain
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#16 Oct 02 2013 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
*
129 posts
Kordain wrote:
My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players? I mean, if I have 7 beefcake players who are willing to carry a fresh 50 through a dungeon well beyond them to get them equipped quickly, who cares?
Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:14am by Kordain


This is a good comment against hard rules on who can enter a dungeon at what point (short of the basic level requirements). FCs that are completion oriented might want to rapidly gear themselves up with alt classes to fill roles they're lacking and this could hamstring that unless the iLVL only applies to DF partial parties and not in cases where you enter with a full party from the start, don't know about that one though.

It would be preferable to say "If you enter with a full party, that's your own business, otherwise there are general guidelines that are enforced when you enter with random strangers to keep the playing field balanced." In other words what's acceptable among friends might not be among strangers.


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:22am by Furiousnixon
____________________________
- The artist usually known as Angrynixon
#17 Oct 02 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
6 posts
Kordain wrote:
My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players?


This is my biggest issue with this feature. I'm OK with limiting who can use duty finder to PUG a dungeon, but I'm leveling with a static group of IRL friends. Even if we wanted to challenge ourselves with a higher level dungeon, we can't because of rules meant to keep randoms from bringing PUGs down :(
#18 Oct 02 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#19 Oct 02 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?

Furiousnixon wrote:
Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:58am by Furiousnixon

OP is not a complaint at all. It's a thought that came up in reaction to the first world complaints.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 10:28am by Ravashack
#20 Oct 02 2013 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
They do this already by simply limiting the actual level of the player in dungeons and syncing the gear down. I don't think the restriction needs to apply to any level 50 dungeon.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#21 Oct 02 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Ravashack wrote:
Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?



this is the quote that i was referencing:

Quote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.



if there is another quote that actually talks about dungeons, please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever it was you were trying to do with that response. i'm quite capable of admitting that i'm wrong, i just haven't seen anything about dungeons yet.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#22 Oct 02 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Furiousnixon wrote:
Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?



I generally agree you, but here is my general reply to the thread.

The real problem from my experience is you have 1 great DPS and 1 AF and lower than lv50 geared DPS. Without solid DPS on these bosses, it's asking for trouble. I've done this dungeon so many times that the only "leech" can be a healer. A poorly geared tank will get smoked by the bosses and the giant guys or heck even all the gargolye and Arhiman. It's not so much about hate management as it is stuff needs to die or else all hope is lost. The demon wall is the perfect example. Tell me that DPS doesn't matter on the wall when you get pushed off if you're too slow.

The bottom line is people that haven't farmed darklight gear or better have no business doing AK or Primals for that matter. This isn't about elitism or preferring the easy path either. It's about all the times I've done content with players that understand the mechanics(skill), but lacked the gear were still dead weight. All the times I've won an instance with an unbalanced party, it's always been a pain. Sometimes it was me who was under-geared until I learned better. Farm, farm, and more farming the easier dungeons like CR until you bring your gear up to standard.

Any new lv50's reading this, here is my advice. The AF gear might look badass, but after the story missions, you're best to replace all of it. As I told my friends, it's complete trash for endgame content. Instead farm some darklight gear and upgrade all your weapons and accessories to lv50 until you get better choices. Start your relic quest and when you do get to the AK requirement, make sure you've upgraded most of your gear by then. Some people say to do Wander's palace, but I think spamming CR runs is best for a newbie lv50. One reason is def/vit for tanks and dmg/vit for dps. Most of these endgame raids will have you being hit regardless of how perfectly you dodge AoE. Titan is the best example, but even during the AK run, stuff randomly targets you.
#23 Oct 02 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Llester wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?



this is the quote that i was referencing:

Quote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.



if there is another quote that actually talks about dungeons, please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever it was you were trying to do with that response. i'm quite capable of admitting that i'm wrong, i just haven't seen anything about dungeons yet.



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.
#24 Oct 02 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

The bottom line is people that haven't farmed darklight gear or better have no business doing AK or Primals for that matter.


Those folks can and should do Ifrit HM. I beat it as blm with the keep of saints rod and AF gear very easily. Smiley: nod As for AK, well, as a dd beforehand you could afford to do a few cm runs to get some darklight pieces, or have a relic dd guide you through your first AK so you can buy the gc weapon that is better than ifrit. It is defintely a tough dungeon to run, even with an ifrit weapon. At best, buy the hq lvl 49 jewelry and slot in materia until you get up there. Those rings will then convert at 100% and potentially grant you expensive materia you can sell back for triple what you bought the ring for (or it could tank and you get an ice materia III Smiley: mad)

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:


Any new lv50's reading this, here is my advice. The AF gear might look badass, but after the story missions, you're best to replace all of it.


Probably two major pieces (like body, pants, head, boots, gloves) are all that is needed to start ak. The drops you get in there are almost as good as darklight. If you can beat the first boss, he drops head stuff usually, then there is a chest with jewelry pieces before you get to demon wall. The wall drops pants, boots and gloves, and the dragon at the end drops body pieces (generally for all of those).


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Some people say to do Wander's palace, but I think spamming CR runs is best for a newbie lv50.


Wanderer's is fun. Decent lvl 55 gear to help you with AK if you are having trouble with AK and are tired of CM. The tonberry king drops a cool shield. The bosses are easy. It is a refreshing run to give you an opportunity to make a little progress.
____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#25 Oct 02 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Ravashack wrote:



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.


ugh just forget it if you're going to be a tool about it. i don;t have a quote, i just remember hearing that it was only applying to primals. christ are you this obnoxious irl?


edit: k found the official quote

Quote:
The development team is aware that there are times when you cannot participate in content so easily and without worry, and I’d like to let you know future countermeasures we have planned to address this.

Significantly reduce repair fees and the cost of dark matter
While the focus will be placed on high-levels, we will be significantly lowering the overall fees for repair and the cost of dark matter.

Addition of item level requirements for high-level dungeon participation
We'll be adding a requirement to participate in high-level dungeons and hard mode primal battles that will make it so you need to have equipment above a certain item level equipped to participate. To coincide with this, we will be implementing a system that will display the average item level for your gear in the character window.


so yeah i was mistaken. kind of weird, since its not needed for dungeons with the sort-of exception of AK

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#26 Oct 02 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Llester wrote:
Ravashack wrote:



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.


ugh just forget it if you're going to be a tool about it. i don;t have a quote, i just remember hearing that it was only applying to primals. christ are you this obnoxious irl?

If you want to take a certain tone with me and I can find an appropriate use for it back at you, then yes, it's highly possible you might find it sent back your way. It's something I've picked up from reading posters in The Asylum board here on Zam, years ago. No hard feelings intended.

Llester wrote:

edit: k found the official quote

Quote:
The development team is aware that there are times when you cannot participate in content so easily and without worry, and I’d like to let you know future countermeasures we have planned to address this.

Significantly reduce repair fees and the cost of dark matter
While the focus will be placed on high-levels, we will be significantly lowering the overall fees for repair and the cost of dark matter.

Addition of item level requirements for high-level dungeon participation
We'll be adding a requirement to participate in high-level dungeons and hard mode primal battles that will make it so you need to have equipment above a certain item level equipped to participate. To coincide with this, we will be implementing a system that will display the average item level for your gear in the character window.


so yeah i was mistaken. kind of weird, since its not needed for dungeons with the sort-of exception of AK

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by Llester


With some of the stories people throw out there, I don't think it's unreasonable speculation that they put it in just to shut down horror stories of "OMG, this guy didn't even do his class quests before getting into queue, he's just a FATE-leveled moron!" (I've definitely heard this one once or twice.)
#27 Oct 02 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Quote:
"OMG, this guy didn't even do his class quests before getting into queue, he's just a FATE-leveled moron!" (I've definitely heard this one once or twice.)


I've heard it a hundred times. In FFXI it is currently "OMG, this guy didn't even get his bayld gear, he's just an Abyssea leveled moron!"

I'm sure every MMO has their own variation on the theme.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#28 Oct 02 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Valkayree wrote:

Those folks can and should do Ifrit HM. I beat it as blm with the keep of saints rod and AF gear very easily. Smiley: nod As for AK, well, as a dd beforehand you could afford to do a few cm runs to get some darklight pieces, or have a relic dd guide you through your first AK so you can buy the gc weapon that is better than ifrit. It is defintely a tough dungeon to run, even with an ifrit weapon.


I'd agree with Ifrit, but we all know that it's likely that same person would try Garuda and Titan which is just going to hurt everyone else. I don't think your advice about doing AK is any good either. We don't need relic holders to help newbies leech zones. This game is about progression and every person should be pull their own weight, not relying on someone else to compensate for their weaknesses. It's not like you need rare drops to progress, just patience doing CR runs. I'm watching people in FULL AF trying to tank and dps Hydra the other night. That's just asking for trouble. Sure you can have people "help" with the fight that don't need it to overcome this, but that's a crappy way to win.

Quote:

Probably two major pieces (like body, pants, head, boots, gloves) are all that is needed to start ak. The drops you get in there are almost as good as darklight. If you can beat the first boss, he drops head stuff usually, then there is a chest with jewelry pieces before you get to demon wall. The wall drops pants, boots and gloves, and the dragon at the end drops body pieces (generally for all of those).


I was referring to accessories more than anything. Players can get AK dungeon gear for the other slots which is a good alternative to DL gear. Sure it's not as good, but it's much better than AF. I stand by my first post. If one DPS is average and one is horribly under-geared wearing AF, you'll most likely never beat the wall. Only when one DPS is carrying the team does what you say ring true. That's a terrible precedent to set if you ask me. I don't understand why you're telling people to do content they're not geared for and then hoping the other party members make up the slack. This should only be done if you're playing with friends. I've done these runs with so many different party settings and gear sets and yet it's almost always a wipe if the conditions I mentioned aren't adhered to.

#29 Oct 02 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,084 posts
As others have pointed out, a minimum ilvl requirement, and likely a reasonable one like having an ilvl 40 average to do a 45 dungeon, is far different than telling people with an ilvl 90 average that they're now ilvl 50 because some people might have their feelings hurt over challenge preservation. When I see games tossing out caps like candy akin to GW2, I think to myself, "What's the point of even having levels?" MMOs basically thrive on the growth of our avatars. Knowing a mob at level 10 that kicked your **** could be obliterated at 50 can be cathartic. As well, instances where mass material farming is involved tends to be optimal when you can kill more in less time, as it's rare to see devs decide, "Well, we have this item in the drop pool of monsters in 5 different level ranges. Let's make the highest range the best drop rate..." More often it's just a flat percentage. Others have also mentioned the benefit of gearing people up who've fallen behind the curve or maybe choose to take up a secondary/tertiary job. If you knew you could clear AK in 30m instead of 45m, you'd be ******* bonkers to want the 45m version when you'll be running it dozens of times just to flesh out a DL set.

Personally, I'm more concerned about people using glitches/exploits to try and cheese past bosses that seriously aren't that difficult. In the case of the tree and the soulflayer, every time I see people insist on it, it takes longer for people to get up the tree than to just kill the ******* legit.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#30 Oct 02 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Valkayree wrote:

Those folks can and should do Ifrit HM. I beat it as blm with the keep of saints rod and AF gear very easily. Smiley: nod As for AK, well, as a dd beforehand you could afford to do a few cm runs to get some darklight pieces, or have a relic dd guide you through your first AK so you can buy the gc weapon that is better than ifrit. It is defintely a tough dungeon to run, even with an ifrit weapon.


I'd agree with Ifrit, but we all know that it's likely that same person would try Garuda and Titan which is just going to hurt everyone else. I don't think your advice about doing AK is any good either. We don't need relic holders to help newbies leech zones. This game is about progression and every person should be pull their own weight, not relying on someone else to compensate for their weaknesses. It's not like you need rare drops to progress, just patience doing CR runs. I'm watching people in FULL AF trying to tank and dps Hydra the other night. That's just asking for trouble. Sure you can have people "help" with the fight that don't need it to overcome this, but that's a crappy way to win.


K, read again, plz, I said Ifrit HM ONLY. Why the heck would someone want to tank Hydra in AF gear? How did they make it past chimera? But AK, I had a ton of trouble with it using keep of saints and my AF gear. I got the darklight armor piece and a few rings, then got ifrit hm weapon and was able to beat the demon wall with a similarly geared dd. It wasnt pretty, but we beat it. That was back before people started doing CM runs, you know, when AK speed runs were the thing to do. But initially, you were almost stuck in a catch 22 back then. You needed the gear from the popular run to get you the gear to beat the popular run.

And regarding assistance from relic ppl, I fully believe that members of a FC should help out others within that FC. Really I am not understanding how it can be referred to as "leeching" when everyone else on the server is able to run AK just the same. Leeching "as in a leech sucking blood" would generally imply that there was a finite amount of blood. As far as I know, any given person can run AK infinitely. And one persons definition of crap is another's definition of treasure. Its why we have swap meets and garage sales. I personally think that it is crappy that I have to be defined by my gear before being recognized by my talent. With my garuda blm weapon I used to outparse relic dragoons thanks to my rotation. But you dont hear me complaining.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

If one DPS is average and one is horribly under-geared wearing AF, you'll most likely never beat the wall.


That's true.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Only when one DPS is carrying the team does what you say ring true. That's a terrible precedent to set if you ask me. I don't understand why you're telling people to do content they're not geared for and then hoping the other party members make up the slack. This should only be done if you're playing with friends. I've done these runs with so many different party settings and gear sets and yet it's almost always a wipe if the conditions I mentioned aren't adhered to.


Not telling people to run things they are undergeared for. I said Ifrit HM and Wanderer's palace for AF people. AK is a stopping point for most people. You need to beat it once to get the good GC stuff. If you can get someone to help you, then do it. Then you go back and try it when you have GC gear. The battle is a catch 22, you need the gear that drops from it in order to run it. Back when I did it, as I said, CM runs werent happening, everyone was running AK speed runs, so you can imagine how hard it was for me to get darklight when I was literally running ifrit and wanderers over and over and over because thats literally the only way I could get tomes. These kids wit their CM runs got it easy, Smiley: lol

You should not be doing Garuda and especially titan in all AF. I said get the darklight gear pieces first due to the defense boost. You need 3200k hp minimum to run Titan regularly without dying. That is not to say you couldn't, I've seen folks with less beat it, but they died when the mass tumults began near the end, and the rest of the team just pushed through.
____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#31 Oct 02 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Valkayree wrote:

K, read again, plz, I said Ifrit HM ONLY. Why the heck would someone want to tank Hydra in AF gear? How did they make it past chimera? But AK, I had a ton of trouble with it using keep of saints and my AF gear. I got the darklight armor piece and a few rings, then got ifrit hm weapon and was able to beat the demon wall with a similarly geared dd. It wasnt pretty, but we beat it. That was back before people started doing CM runs, you know, when AK speed runs were the thing to do. But initially, you were almost stuck in a catch 22 back then. You needed the gear from the popular run to get you the gear to beat the popular run.


Sorry, but it's you who misread the reply. I simply implied players who defeated Ifrit with terrible gear would try to fight more, not you. As for Hydra, I have no clue. I've been stuck with these people on and off so it does happen. If I'm going to queue for DPS to do AK runs, I don't want to risk it. Between the wait time to enter the entrance itself and dps wait times, it's problematic to get under-geared people. Now if anyone reading this thinks this is elitist, I assure you that's not my view. I'll gladly take someone with decent gear and no knowledge of the raid than someone with below average gear who has extorted wins by resting on the laurels of others.

Quote:

And regarding assistance from relic ppl, I fully believe that members of a FC should help out others within that FC. Really I am not understanding how it can be referred to as "leeching" when everyone else on the server is able to run AK just the same. Leeching "as in a leech sucking blood" would generally imply that there was a finite amount of blood. As far as I know, any given person can run AK infinitely. And one persons definition of crap is another's definition of treasure. Its why we have swap meets and garage sales. I personally think that it is crappy that I have to be defined by my gear before being recognized by my talent. With my garuda blm weapon I used to outparse relic dragoons thanks to my rotation. But you dont hear me complaining.


Dead weight, boat anchors, gimp...take whatever label you want and use it if you don't understand leeching. If someone isn't pulling their weight, that's exactly what they are. I'm not going to continue to argue semantics with you. Crap is crap... There is a huge difference between crappy gear and elite gear. DL is not elite gear either despite public opinion. Relic ilv90 gear covers that honor.

Quote:

Not telling people to run things they are undergeared for. I said Ifrit HM and Wanderer's palace for AF people. AK is a stopping point for most people. You need to beat it once to get the good GC stuff. If you can get someone to help you, then do it. Then you go back and try it when you have GC gear. The battle is a catch 22, you need the gear that drops from it in order to run it. Back when I did it, as I said, CM runs werent happening, everyone was running AK speed runs, so you can imagine how hard it was for me to get darklight when I was literally running ifrit and wanderers over and over and over because thats literally the only way I could get tomes. These kids wit their CM runs got it easy, Smiley: lol

You should not be doing Garuda and especially titan in all AF. I said get the darklight gear pieces first due to the defense boost. You need 3200k hp minimum to run Titan regularly without dying. That is not to say you couldn't, I've seen folks with less beat it, but they died when the mass tumults began near the end, and the rest of the team just pushed through.


I realize things were different for you, but that's not relevant to this conversation. We need to focus on the here and now, not the past. Currently there is no **** excuse for anyone to have gimpy gear on an AK run. Unless they're either A) disrespectful, B) unaware of the raid's challenge. It's typically one of those answers. I don't have a problem with B, but A does irk me. There isn't a catch 22 anymore so let's drop that tiresome argument.



Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 10:07pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#32 Oct 03 2013 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Ravashack wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:

Why gear up if gear is useless?

Overgearing and steamrolling content is one of the ways people know their character has increased in power. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2


Of course. But every time you hit level sync in a FATE or go into a dungeon that's not intended for your level, your gear DOES sync down with you in the first place. It's practically an expected consequence now.

I mean, if gear is really useless in an game environment with synced gear, why are people still gearing up?

After all, we are already playing in an environment with synced gear in FFXIV. Yes, it's blended in with syncing your level or some other "level appropriate" reason but it's practically an accepted form of practice now. It's easy to verify too. Just walk into a FATE, look at your stats, sync, and then change to another lower-level-but-higher-than-the-synced-level item with a common stat. No change in the common stat if the items were boosting them high enough, regardless of the quality of the item.

------------------

I am not saying I want or don't want it to happen. I'm purposely trying to keep my opinion out of the thought as much as possible, because I want to be as objective about it as possible. But so far, the only content I can think of that's not synced in some way are field mobs. After all, even the level 50 content is technically synced. We're just not actually above the maximum level for it to kick in yet. Once we are...



AFAIK your gear does sync down, but I think it's still the best gear you can have...at least in dungeons...

My DPS was crazy good when I was in Cutter's Cry with level 45+ gear. Either that or my rotation was better, or the other DD was better than on our previous runs.

Maybe the calculations of sync are different between FATES and Dungeons?

A bit off topic but I think some testing is in order...if I have some free time I might try it out...

----

On topic, as I said in a previous thread, I like the idea, because I'd rather have the game tell me I can't do something rather than elitists. It seems to carry more weight coming from the game which doesn't have an attitude or drops when they see you slightly under-geared...even though I'm sure it will happen to an extent.

But really, endgame PvE is pretty much new to me (as I tend to focus on PvP) so I'll defer to the experts.

#33 Oct 03 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Now if anyone reading this thinks this is elitist, I assure you that's not my view.


No you are not elitist. I think you are just mad at ppl who join pugs undergeared. A true example of an elitist was the **** last night who booted me out of a prae run simply becuase I was on PS3, and instead of waiting 5 seconds to cross the purple barrier he zerg rushed it on purpose so I would get locked out of two battles. Booted me and told me "Get a computer". Grrr. I can cancel immediately when the cs comes up, then another cs comes up and i immediately cancel, then I bum rush to the purple line and one second before I arrive the 15 seconds are up. I really think they do it on purpose to see how many they lock out. I wish their computers would explode so they can play on ps3 and see how it feels.

Quote:

Dead weight, boat anchors, gimp...take whatever label you want and use it if you don't understand leeching. If someone isn't pulling their weight, that's exactly what they are. I'm not going to continue to argue semantics with you. Crap is crap... There is a huge difference between crappy gear and elite gear. DL is not elite gear either despite public opinion. Relic ilv90 gear covers that honor.


There exists a thing in nature, a phenominon quite frankly, which is defined as a symbiote. In the medical field, leeches are used to remove blood clots (beneficial purposes). One member might need protection while providing light, or food, or something else beneficial to the protector. Is a whm leeching off of the tank because the tank provides protection? Or is the tank leeching off of the whm because he can't cure himself effectively? And is the dd just leeching off of them both for protection and heals, or are they both leeching off of the dd because neither the tank or the whm can effectively do damage? Puts it into perspective, and you can't defeat that point unless you are just here to argue.

In the FC, we function a lot like a party of adventurers. Not sure if you quite understand that based on your last post, so I'll clarify. There was a severely undergeared scholar who joined the FC. Cool guy. I helped him through Hydra, then Ifrit, then Garuda. But then guess what, after Garuda, the guy zipped off and got himself geared, got his relic before me, and then helped me get mine. If I would have never helped him, would he have been there to help me through titan? Karma is a *****, and a saint, and could be why you have your current stance.

Quote:

I realize things were different for you, but that's not relevant to this conversation. We need to focus on the here and now, not the past. Currently there is no **** excuse for anyone to have gimpy gear on an AK run. Unless they're either A) disrespectful, B) unaware of the raid's challenge. It's typically one of those answers. I don't have a problem with B, but A does irk me. There isn't a catch 22 anymore so let's drop that tiresome argument.


Ok, focus on the here and now. You want an army. You want a group of soldiers who can rip the crap out of whatever is in front of them. You want the coil. Problem is, you are stuck with a bunch of farmers with pitchforks and potato sacks. Are they disrespectful for wanting to rush into battle in their potato sacks? Nope, they want it as bad as you do. Your job in the FC, with all your awesome gear, is to help those folks get awesome gear so when they are beside you in battle you dont all get mowed down. You are helping them, but you are also helping yourself my building up your companions.

Perhaps you are referring more to duty finder, or pugs. I am referring to a team.



Edited, Oct 3rd 2013 10:39am by Valkayree
____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#34 Oct 03 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
Valkayree wrote:
Grrr. I can cancel immediately when the cs comes up, then another cs comes up and i immediately cancel, then I bum rush to the purple line and one second before I arrive the 15 seconds are up. I really think they do it on purpose to see how many they lock out. I wish their computers would explode so they can play on ps3 and see how it feels.


This is one of many benefits of upgrading to a SSD on the PS3. I had a few douchebags try this to me, I load just as fast as them now.

Quote:

In the FC, we function a lot like a party of adventurers. Not sure if you quite understand that based on your last post, so I'll clarify. There was a severely undergeared scholar who joined the FC. Cool guy. I helped him through Hydra, then Ifrit, then Garuda. But then guess what, after Garuda, the guy zipped off and got himself geared, got his relic before me, and then helped me get mine. If I would have never helped him, would he have been there to help me through titan? Karma is a *****, and a saint, and could be why you have your current stance.


I have no idea what this has to do with my post, but ok.

Quote:

Ok, focus on the here and now. You want an army. You want a group of soldiers who can rip the crap out of whatever is in front of them. You want the coil. Problem is, you are stuck with a bunch of farmers with pitchforks and potato sacks. Are they disrespectful for wanting to rush into battle in their potato sacks? Nope, they want it as bad as you do. Your job in the FC, with all your awesome gear, is to help those folks get awesome gear so when they are beside you in battle you dont all get mowed down. You are helping them, but you are also helping yourself my building up your companions.

Perhaps you are referring more to duty finder, or pugs. I am referring to a team.


This argument you make here is a logical fallacy. First of all, you don't know the motivations behind people. Some are lazy players that are too impatient to care about anyone else's time other than their own. There is a difference between FC members and pickup groups. My views are only addressing the pickup side.There is a path to move forward that is painless. Only time is required which I suppose is asking too much. I'm done explaining myself, you just don't get it.

Edited, Oct 3rd 2013 7:14pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#35 Oct 03 2013 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
***
3,450 posts
Having two completely opposite conversations in this thread is confusing as ****.

How did it go from "do you think an ilvl cap is good?" to "minimum ilvls, rawr!"
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 83 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (83)