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ilvl capped Level 50 dungeons?Follow

#1 Oct 01 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a random thought that came to mind after reading through complaints about overgeared players, but how do you people feel if the level 50 dungeons also had an ilevel cap on gear? So if your gear is above the cap for the zone, the higher pieces would be automatically synced down to the stats of a more appropriate level item for the run.

For example, using some of the current dungeons/trials/fights:

CM/Praetorium/Wanderer's Palace: ilevel 55
Amdapor Keep/Ifrit/Chimera/Hydra: ilevel 60
Garuda/Titan: ilevel 70

We already know the mechanic to sync item levels down is in the game with how level sync works anyway.

Any thoughts?

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 6:43pm by Ravashack
#2 Oct 01 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Any thoughts?


Why?
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#3 Oct 01 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Any thoughts?


Why?


It was partly a reaction to people complaining about over-geared players farming zones with under-geared or appropriately geared players.

It was also partly a reaction to people making fun of those who shout for over-geared players for a fight -- especially when the person yelling doesn't fit his/her own criteria.
#4 Oct 01 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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I still don't understand why would you want this to be implemented D: , I hate being gimped (I guess that's why I don't like GW2)
#5 Oct 01 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm pretty much against arbitrarily capping as the harm it does seem to outweigh the niche good.
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#6 Oct 01 2013 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Toyototoyo wrote:
I still don't understand why would you want this to be implemented D: , I hate being gimped (I guess that's why I don't like GW2)


I haven't put it in as an actual suggestion. But given the tools that are already available, it sounds like something that is going to eventually come up, even if I don't say anything.
#7 Oct 01 2013 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah I can't see this happening, you'd be effectively be making people's runs slower. Given how many times the average 50 is going to run CM/AK, it just wouldn't fly. People would quit en-masse and it would be a PR disaster. It's already too much of a grind.

Aside from that it doesn't solve any real issues that I've seen out there in game. Now, having a minimum iLvl is a very good idea. You don't hinder people who've put the time in, and you reduce the chances of the entire run being a waste due to under geared players.

Having said all that, the standard in DF is improving, it's been a while since I've actually had what I'd class as a "bad" group. I think the last person who was under-prepared for AK actually came from the FC.
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#8 Oct 01 2013 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why gear up if gear is useless?

Overgearing and steamrolling content is one of the ways people know their character has increased in power. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2
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#9 Oct 01 2013 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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I could see AK having an ilvl55 cap. that's it. not necessary though plenty of people think it is /shrug

edit: nevermind, i misread OP. no just no. bad idea, not fun at all, no thanks.


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55am by Llester
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#10 Oct 02 2013 at 1:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm all for having iLvl cap on PVP related content so I don't end up fighting a iLvl 90 PLD as iLvl50 WAR.
#11 Oct 02 2013 at 2:05 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:

Why gear up if gear is useless?

Overgearing and steamrolling content is one of the ways people know their character has increased in power. Otherwise you just get Guild Wars 2


Of course. But every time you hit level sync in a FATE or go into a dungeon that's not intended for your level, your gear DOES sync down with you in the first place. It's practically an expected consequence now.

I mean, if gear is really useless in an game environment with synced gear, why are people still gearing up?

After all, we are already playing in an environment with synced gear in FFXIV. Yes, it's blended in with syncing your level or some other "level appropriate" reason but it's practically an accepted form of practice now. It's easy to verify too. Just walk into a FATE, look at your stats, sync, and then change to another lower-level-but-higher-than-the-synced-level item with a common stat. No change in the common stat if the items were boosting them high enough, regardless of the quality of the item.

------------------

I am not saying I want or don't want it to happen. I'm purposely trying to keep my opinion out of the thought as much as possible, because I want to be as objective about it as possible. But so far, the only content I can think of that's not synced in some way are field mobs. After all, even the level 50 content is technically synced. We're just not actually above the maximum level for it to kick in yet. Once we are...
#12 Oct 02 2013 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/87509-Gear-level-the-final-nail-in-the-games-coffin.?p=1258750#post1258750

Camate, SE Rep wrote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.
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#13 Oct 02 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/87509-Gear-level-the-final-nail-in-the-games-coffin.?p=1258750#post1258750

Camate, SE Rep wrote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.

Bad idea though. I'd rather have a cap in place than a requirement. As a healer or a tank, having a decent ilvl weapon for HM Ifrit, Garuda and Titan helps, but it certainly shouldnt be a requirement. Knowing SE they'll make it so you need to HAVE Ifrit's weapon before you can proceed to Garuda, then spam that endlessly till you have Garuda's weapon before you're even allowed to do Titan... I can imagine a DD needing a certain amount of power behind them, but a healer or tank? Lets make the shortage of those two jobs even bigger by restricting their access.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by KojiroSoma
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#14 Oct 02 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:58am by Furiousnixon
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#15 Oct 02 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players? I mean, if I have 7 beefcake players who are willing to carry a fresh 50 through a dungeon well beyond them to get them equipped quickly, who cares?

Similarly though, no one likes turning up to a dungeon and seeing someone so out of their depth that you know they're going to be a liability even with a good head on their shoulders.

Its a tricky balance to find, to be sure.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:14am by Kordain
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#16 Oct 02 2013 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players? I mean, if I have 7 beefcake players who are willing to carry a fresh 50 through a dungeon well beyond them to get them equipped quickly, who cares?
Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:14am by Kordain


This is a good comment against hard rules on who can enter a dungeon at what point (short of the basic level requirements). FCs that are completion oriented might want to rapidly gear themselves up with alt classes to fill roles they're lacking and this could hamstring that unless the iLVL only applies to DF partial parties and not in cases where you enter with a full party from the start, don't know about that one though.

It would be preferable to say "If you enter with a full party, that's your own business, otherwise there are general guidelines that are enforced when you enter with random strangers to keep the playing field balanced." In other words what's acceptable among friends might not be among strangers.


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 8:22am by Furiousnixon
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#17 Oct 02 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
My concerns is since you have to use Duty Finder to access the instances in the first place, will we lose the ability to quickly gear friends or newer players?


This is my biggest issue with this feature. I'm OK with limiting who can use duty finder to PUG a dungeon, but I'm leveling with a static group of IRL friends. Even if we wanted to challenge ourselves with a higher level dungeon, we can't because of rules meant to keep randoms from bringing PUGs down :(
#18 Oct 02 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester
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#19 Oct 02 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?

Furiousnixon wrote:
Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?


Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:58am by Furiousnixon

OP is not a complaint at all. It's a thought that came up in reaction to the first world complaints.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 10:28am by Ravashack
#20 Oct 02 2013 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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They do this already by simply limiting the actual level of the player in dungeons and syncing the gear down. I don't think the restriction needs to apply to any level 50 dungeon.
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#21 Oct 02 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Ravashack wrote:
Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?



this is the quote that i was referencing:

Quote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.



if there is another quote that actually talks about dungeons, please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever it was you were trying to do with that response. i'm quite capable of admitting that i'm wrong, i just haven't seen anything about dungeons yet.
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#22 Oct 02 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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Furiousnixon wrote:
Nothing wrong with over-geared players enjoying content with under geared or appropriately geared players. Not a big deal. So you'll rip hate off the tank more often... First world problems.

To use AK as an example if you have two over geared DDs and 1 appropriately geared or under geared tank, which has happened in my FC as we run alts through or new people, who really cares? Stuff dies before it has a chance to see it coming and on bosses the DDs should be smart enough to realize it might be an issue and throttle just a bit, not earth shattering. This game is generous anyhow with hate mechanics you don't have to adjust that much. Under geared healer over geared everyone else? Again who cares. The fact that everyone else is over geared (especially the tank) means they take less damage. In this situation the healer might have even less to do than normal and can coast for the whole dungeon DDing if they felt like it half the time.

What's the real complaint here? "This run went too smoothly because people had good gear. boo hoo" ?



I generally agree you, but here is my general reply to the thread.

The real problem from my experience is you have 1 great DPS and 1 AF and lower than lv50 geared DPS. Without solid DPS on these bosses, it's asking for trouble. I've done this dungeon so many times that the only "leech" can be a healer. A poorly geared tank will get smoked by the bosses and the giant guys or heck even all the gargolye and Arhiman. It's not so much about hate management as it is stuff needs to die or else all hope is lost. The demon wall is the perfect example. Tell me that DPS doesn't matter on the wall when you get pushed off if you're too slow.

The bottom line is people that haven't farmed darklight gear or better have no business doing AK or Primals for that matter. This isn't about elitism or preferring the easy path either. It's about all the times I've done content with players that understand the mechanics(skill), but lacked the gear were still dead weight. All the times I've won an instance with an unbalanced party, it's always been a pain. Sometimes it was me who was under-geared until I learned better. Farm, farm, and more farming the easier dungeons like CR until you bring your gear up to standard.

Any new lv50's reading this, here is my advice. The AF gear might look badass, but after the story missions, you're best to replace all of it. As I told my friends, it's complete trash for endgame content. Instead farm some darklight gear and upgrade all your weapons and accessories to lv50 until you get better choices. Start your relic quest and when you do get to the AK requirement, make sure you've upgraded most of your gear by then. Some people say to do Wander's palace, but I think spamming CR runs is best for a newbie lv50. One reason is def/vit for tanks and dmg/vit for dps. Most of these endgame raids will have you being hit regardless of how perfectly you dodge AoE. Titan is the best example, but even during the AK run, stuff randomly targets you.
#23 Oct 02 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
Llester wrote:
Kordain wrote:
Like it or dislike it, iLevel requirements for dungeons is a feature coming to 2.1:


right but that's not what the thread is about (yes i made the same mistake), and they don't actually mention dungeons either....afaik its just for primals

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 9:46am by Llester


You don't think Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep are dungeons? Or CM or Praetorium?



this is the quote that i was referencing:

Quote:
Hello,

We understand that some of you have some concerns regarding the item level restrictions for content; however, the development team is aware that there are players who are trying to challenge high level content without the proper amount of attack and defense, and would like to ensure that everyone participating in the content is on the same level.

Just to reiterate, this adjustment will be made in patch 2.1, and your average item level will be displayed in your character window. To coincide with this, we will also be adding a display for the required item level in the Duty Finder.



if there is another quote that actually talks about dungeons, please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever it was you were trying to do with that response. i'm quite capable of admitting that i'm wrong, i just haven't seen anything about dungeons yet.



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.
#24 Oct 02 2013 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

The bottom line is people that haven't farmed darklight gear or better have no business doing AK or Primals for that matter.


Those folks can and should do Ifrit HM. I beat it as blm with the keep of saints rod and AF gear very easily. Smiley: nod As for AK, well, as a dd beforehand you could afford to do a few cm runs to get some darklight pieces, or have a relic dd guide you through your first AK so you can buy the gc weapon that is better than ifrit. It is defintely a tough dungeon to run, even with an ifrit weapon. At best, buy the hq lvl 49 jewelry and slot in materia until you get up there. Those rings will then convert at 100% and potentially grant you expensive materia you can sell back for triple what you bought the ring for (or it could tank and you get an ice materia III Smiley: mad)

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:


Any new lv50's reading this, here is my advice. The AF gear might look badass, but after the story missions, you're best to replace all of it.


Probably two major pieces (like body, pants, head, boots, gloves) are all that is needed to start ak. The drops you get in there are almost as good as darklight. If you can beat the first boss, he drops head stuff usually, then there is a chest with jewelry pieces before you get to demon wall. The wall drops pants, boots and gloves, and the dragon at the end drops body pieces (generally for all of those).


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

Some people say to do Wander's palace, but I think spamming CR runs is best for a newbie lv50.


Wanderer's is fun. Decent lvl 55 gear to help you with AK if you are having trouble with AK and are tired of CM. The tonberry king drops a cool shield. The bosses are easy. It is a refreshing run to give you an opportunity to make a little progress.
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#25 Oct 02 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Ravashack wrote:



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.


ugh just forget it if you're going to be a tool about it. i don;t have a quote, i just remember hearing that it was only applying to primals. christ are you this obnoxious irl?


edit: k found the official quote

Quote:
The development team is aware that there are times when you cannot participate in content so easily and without worry, and I’d like to let you know future countermeasures we have planned to address this.

Significantly reduce repair fees and the cost of dark matter
While the focus will be placed on high-levels, we will be significantly lowering the overall fees for repair and the cost of dark matter.

Addition of item level requirements for high-level dungeon participation
We'll be adding a requirement to participate in high-level dungeons and hard mode primal battles that will make it so you need to have equipment above a certain item level equipped to participate. To coincide with this, we will be implementing a system that will display the average item level for your gear in the character window.


so yeah i was mistaken. kind of weird, since its not needed for dungeons with the sort-of exception of AK

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by Llester
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#26 Oct 02 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Llester wrote:
Ravashack wrote:



Where is there official clarification that specifies that the quote you responded to is only about primals, as you claimed? Especially when the quote never says one way or another. Especially when the quote is being taken from a thread complaining about ilevels in general, with a decent of posts from players that use Amdapor Keep runs as a primary example? Please, by all means enlighten me instead of whatever you were trying to do with that response. I'm quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong, as I haven't been keeping up on my dev post stalking, but you're not providing any actual evidence to the contrary yet.


ugh just forget it if you're going to be a tool about it. i don;t have a quote, i just remember hearing that it was only applying to primals. christ are you this obnoxious irl?

If you want to take a certain tone with me and I can find an appropriate use for it back at you, then yes, it's highly possible you might find it sent back your way. It's something I've picked up from reading posters in The Asylum board here on Zam, years ago. No hard feelings intended.

Llester wrote:

edit: k found the official quote

Quote:
The development team is aware that there are times when you cannot participate in content so easily and without worry, and I’d like to let you know future countermeasures we have planned to address this.

Significantly reduce repair fees and the cost of dark matter
While the focus will be placed on high-levels, we will be significantly lowering the overall fees for repair and the cost of dark matter.

Addition of item level requirements for high-level dungeon participation
We'll be adding a requirement to participate in high-level dungeons and hard mode primal battles that will make it so you need to have equipment above a certain item level equipped to participate. To coincide with this, we will be implementing a system that will display the average item level for your gear in the character window.


so yeah i was mistaken. kind of weird, since its not needed for dungeons with the sort-of exception of AK

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:55pm by Llester


With some of the stories people throw out there, I don't think it's unreasonable speculation that they put it in just to shut down horror stories of "OMG, this guy didn't even do his class quests before getting into queue, he's just a FATE-leveled moron!" (I've definitely heard this one once or twice.)
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