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A Damage Dealers role?Follow

#1 Oct 01 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hi all, the answer to the topic title sounds so obvious it's dumb, but hear me out.

I'm a little confused about my role and what exactly is expected of me as a damage dealer in dungeons/guildhests and so on. I'm coming from XI, before Abyssea and all that where there were set party camps, one mob, and the only person who was moving around was the puller. Actually moving through dungeons and taking on multiple enemies is really throwing me for a loop so far. I just can't seem to get a handle on it and I'm just waiting to get cussed out sooner or later :P

So a few questions:

If the tank is taking a beating from multiple mobs, do I focus on the target the tank is attacking? Or do I go after adds? This one really confuses me.

Is there an easier way of targeting the tanks target other than manually selecting it? (controller user here btw). I've been in a few guildhests where I was actually just standing there doing nothing while frantically trying to target their target, it was a mess.

For the times when you do actually need to "pull" enemies, who does that job normally go to? In XI it was always a DDs job but I've seen tanks just running in head first and I've even seen some CNJ's doing it... what the heck?

Sorry for all the noob questions. I've just never played a game like this before. FFXI is the only MMO I ever played.

Any general advice or tips you could give me as well would be appreciated. (Oh! playing a Lancer btw).

Thanks!
#2 Oct 01 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Generally with multiple mobs the tank will label them 1-2-3 so they know where to expect DPS hate to be focused. Once I get the target numbers up when I'm tanking I'll often switch between mobs to pin hate from the healer, so trying to follow the tanks target is going to be difficult. I also drop to the next target (#2 for instance) just before the last target is finished (ppl are finishing off #1) if possible to further help shore up hate, so there's that.

If you're in a party that's less organized there's still hope. As a DPS in those situations I'll try to pick the most likely target and wait a second or two to see what in the enemy list is getting knocked down. That's my primary target. Once it's down I do the same for the next. It's not as quick or graceful as numbered tags but it usually works. Boss fights get more complicated though, and you often want to focus on the weaker enemies first.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, at least for the earlier levels. If you can make some friends in-game you'll all figure things out with some time and patience. This game is definitely not like the static pull & rest XI fighting mechanic.


Edited for clarity

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 7:31pm by SkyRaymaker
#3 Oct 01 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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DD job.. Stand back let tanks pull let them get aggro... Hit there target (if they dont mark) If you have CC ask tank if he wants CC if not than repeat what i said.
#4 Oct 01 2013 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anslem81 wrote:
Hi all, the answer to the topic title sounds so obvious it's dumb, but hear me out.

I'm a little confused about my role and what exactly is expected of me as a damage dealer in dungeons/guildhests and so on. I'm coming from XI, before Abyssea and all that where there were set party camps, one mob, and the only person who was moving around was the puller. Actually moving through dungeons and taking on multiple enemies is really throwing me for a loop so far. I just can't seem to get a handle on it and I'm just waiting to get cussed out sooner or later :P

So a few questions:

If the tank is taking a beating from multiple mobs, do I focus on the target the tank is attacking? Or do I go after adds? This one really confuses me.

Is there an easier way of targeting the tanks target other than manually selecting it? (controller user here btw). I've been in a few guildhests where I was actually just standing there doing nothing while frantically trying to target their target, it was a mess.

For the times when you do actually need to "pull" enemies, who does that job normally go to? In XI it was always a DDs job but I've seen tanks just running in head first and I've even seen some CNJ's doing it... what the heck?

Sorry for all the noob questions. I've just never played a game like this before. FFXI is the only MMO I ever played.

Any general advice or tips you could give me as well would be appreciated. (Oh! playing a Lancer btw).

Thanks!


Hiya^^ I am far from the DD (dps) of the Mountain Top but I'm happy to add my experience and impression.



More often than not, you should indeed focus on "trash mobs" during boss fights. Particularly if they slip past the tank and chase casters or are too many to be slept. These type of mobs typically go down fairly easily and you're back to the boss beatdown before you know it. Outside of bossfights, stay on target with tank.

As for easier ways to target, I seem to always target manually due to using a controller but there is a macro you can make for targeting the target of any player you click on. <tt> is it? Someone with more experience can confirm that.

As for pulling, again it depends on pt makeup. This game quite typically makes tank pull almost routinely but conjurer's pets can make good pullers to lure to tank or in a dire situation archers are perfect for kiting. Lancers can kite to a degree but not anywhere near as effectively/safely as archer/bard. What lancers do have in this regard is a heavier armor option. Not as strong as an exclusive mrd/gla setup but typically heavier than anything a arch/mnk can wear (if you're actually wearing said armor. Typically you lose some pretty good attack bonuses for wearing such armor).

All in all, you're primary focus should be to do as much damage as possible after tank has grabbed hate. Utilize your combos and DoT attacks as seamlessly as possible during the big fights in particular. And don't let your casters take a beating. Trash mobs that spawn 2-3+ at a time during a boss fight should be dealt with quickly.


Edited, Oct 1st 2013 7:42pm by ShindaUsagi
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#5 Oct 01 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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<tt> does let you target the target's target. You'd just have to trust that your target doesn't re-target his target too often.

I think /assist is an option as well? Can't check in my current location.
#6 Oct 01 2013 at 6:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah forget what you know about FFXI in terms of PT dynamics.

The tank in FFXIV can take multiple hits from multiple trash mobs. In FFXI just one add could be life or death.

As a DD your role is to burn the marked targets in the order that they are marked.

Don't die.

Keep an eye on aggro, but if you pull too much hate, know when to pull back, and know when to use your defensive abilities.

Don't die.

Stay out of AoEs and keep your damage as focused as you can. It's harder in this game because in later levels you're moving around a lot.

Don't die. :)

You may "tank" off mobs for a bit or even train them, but ideally you want to bring the mobs to the tank if you get aggro and let the tank handle it.
#7 Oct 01 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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If you look under "user macros", there is a macro called "attack marked target".

If you slot that macro on your crossbar, and if your tank marks the target he/she wants you to kill, that macro will automatically have you select and face the marked target.

I hope that helps.
#8 Oct 01 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If the tank is taking a beating from multiple mobs, do I focus on the target the tank is attacking? Or do I go after adds? This one really confuses me.
Always hit the same thing your tank is hitting, in order to organize hate in this game is very important to focus the same target as the tank, the tank will usually let you know in advance if you have to behave any other way.

Quote:
Is there an easier way of targeting the tanks target other than manually selecting it? (controller user here btw). I've been in a few guildhests where I was actually just standing there doing nothing while frantically trying to target their target, it was a mess.
Make a macro, one line macro can help you to target your tank's target in a single action.
/assist <t>
[You have to select your tank from the party list before using this macro]

if your tank is marking the enemy group with 1-2-3 you can make a macro like this to engage them in order:
/ac "Auto-attack" <attack1>
/ac "Auto-attack" <attack2>
/ac "Auto-attack" <attack3>
[Just fire it once at the beginning of the fight and once each time a monster dies]

Quote:
For the times when you do actually need to "pull" enemies, who does that job normally go to? In XI it was always a DDs job but I've seen tanks just running in head first and I've even seen some CNJ's doing it... what the heck?
The official puller in this game is the tank, unless your healer has enough range to pull something the tank cannot, DPS almost never pull in this game.

Quote:
Any general advice or tips you could give me as well would be appreciated. (Oh! playing a Lancer btw).
If you haven't played a game with GCD (global cool down) before, it's worth to check a guide for your class, as a DPS you are basically looking to maximize the damage your class can do per second (hence DPS) in order to do that, you have to understand how the abilities of your job "rotate", checking a beginner's guide can help you to understand the basic concepts.
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#9 Oct 02 2013 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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This is all very complicated. Nuke everything until it's dead. Still alive? You're not nuking enough, keep going. Aggro'd you? That means it's still alive, despite what I told you to do earlier. Shame on you. Nuke it some more.

-A black mage.

As an aside, if you're ripping hate of the tank during a boss, this is bad. If you're doing it during trash, don't get all excited, it is literally meaningless. Dungeon trash in this game is boring anyhow, at least unpredictable hate on trash keeps it interesting since we're supposedly "properly" supposed to actually kill it. I say that genuinely, monsters bouncing around during trash pulls makes it slightly more interesting and I occasionally get to bother using my other two abilities like manawall and manaward.

re: pulling. Again, who really cares with the exception of bosses. Things that break the routine and monotony are good.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:48am by Furiousnixon

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 7:51am by Furiousnixon
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#10 Oct 02 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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I don't have as in depth advice to give but I can give you my little bit as an up and coming WRD/WAR

The first thing I do is establish the roll. Simple question, "what would you like me to focus on?" This lets the tank decide how they want to handle themselves. They may say, "I'll mark, you get adds, CC," etc.

Know what else is in your party too. If you have a CC job in the party, you will focus on the tanks targets and helping keep/grab hate from the healers. Of course be prepared to handle your own if you steal hate from the tank. That means watch your hate gauge, the colored circles next to the mobs, Red = you have it, Yellow = be cautious, you are about to get it, Green = attack away. Once I get yellow, I move to another target or not use an ability for a second, or use my take that time to use my own buffs. Someone had a good thread about hate and how to tell what's what. *Healers should know the hate dots too.

After that its really just knowing, for me, what abilities to use and how to use them. Some are for CC, some are for Hate, some are for DPS. Understand the abilities and how you should be using them for each combat situation.

Last thing: be sure you can tank if you need too. There will be a time when the tank has more than he can handle and you will need to pull hate fast and hold it on your own. Learning how to keep mages safe is another thing too. No mage, no HP.

I hope that helps a little.
#11 Oct 02 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Adds go after squishies, you go save the squishies. This includes adds going after mage DPS. Accept that you will likely die for the greater good of keeping others alive. Its these moments where you can experience what a tank must face every day of their lives.
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#12 Oct 02 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T RUN IF YOU GET HATE, ESPECIALLY TOWARDS THE HEALER! THANK YOU!
- Every healer, ever.
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#13 Oct 02 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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If you know how to not stand in stuff then you have a leg up over most newcomers. As a ranged DPS learn to utilize it (e.g. Max range).

Best thing to do is learn all the encounters in the dungeon and you'll learn when to burn and when to ignore and whatnot. The easiest way to do this is to grind them. You'll usually be on burn adds and "click the widget" duty but not always.

Most "DPS checks" involve either a pure check of having to do a certain amount of damage within X amount of time (usually referred to as gear check) or some kind of competency check that is a combination of mechanics you'll most likely have already seen in earlier encounters but combined with others, e.g. don't stand in stuff + break bubble/rocks and burn add + stand/move to X + click widget or both, e.g. gear check + competency.

The dungeons do a pretty good job of holding your hand by starting you off with simple encounters that only have one gimmick, e.g. don't stand in the fire. Then you'll do another fight where the boss summons adds, then a dungeon or two later you might have a combo of don't stand in stuff while burning adds. Finally you'll be doing encounters with multiple mechanics all going at once, if you paid attention to the earlier dungeons and know your role then eventually instinct will take over, especially after you've done the encounter and understand all the gimmicks. Don't panic, learn the mechanics, pay attention and execute and you'll be fine.




#14 Oct 02 2013 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T RUN IF YOU GET HATE, ESPECIALLY TOWARDS THE HEALER! THANK YOU!
- Every healer, ever.

Good point. If you get aggro from an add or out of turn monster or w/e then run to the tank (assuming it is safe and you won't get a cone AOE to the face for it).

Don't run in circles, don't run away. A good tank already knows that it lost agg on something and doesn't need to chase you around while you panic. Just run to the tank and the tank should have Provoke on standby to get it off of you.
#15 Oct 02 2013 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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And quite frankly, OP, the fact that you are DPS and are taking the time to ask questions and learn to play your class and know your role, as opposed to just going in a blowing everything up, tells me that you'll probably be just fine.

I consider any dungeon before 35 (and to a lesser extent Brayflox) as training wheel dungeons. If people rage at anyone in those dungeons for pretty much any reason then they are jerk offs because most mistakes are simply due to ignorance. I'd rather have you learn about kill order and learn to use your CC macros and other stuff and mess them up while building the muscle memory in a forgiving level 28 dungeon than an unforgiving level 50 dungeon where multiple mechanics you should already be familiar with are all happening at once.

If your tank is a real leader (which is part of its role) then it will talk to the group, solve the problem, win and collect loot, if not it will **** and moan and never get anywhere.
#16 Oct 02 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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OK I suppose I should do something more helpful.

Be a Boxer
The keys to being a great boxer IRL make you a great DD in FFXI.

- Watch your opponent for weakness
Is the mob naturally slow moving? Do certain abilities hurt worse?

- Train, train train
When you get a new ability, use it till you know exactly what it does so you know when and where to use it.
Read every single help text on every single ability.
Check out forums and wikis dedicated to the game to find ways to tweak your performance

- Stick and Move
See those red areas? Get out of those red areas.
Keep toggle, not hold. You can jump, use it if you need to.
Practice using Sprint in combat while soloing. Can be really handy to pop mid-fight to get out of a huge AoE.

- Keep your guard up
Watch your surroundings, use them to you and your party's advantage
Watch where your opponent is facing. If you draw hate, and you have the healers in cone behind you, you've likely killed the healer
Bring pots of all sorts to remove your own status ailments if the healer is having issues doing so.

- Train some more
Buy/craft/farm gear that is both effective and level-appropriate
Use solo and party experiences to broaden your knowledge of your role

- Know when to stay down
If you are drawing hate, slow down your damage. Your death will hurt in a number of ways
If you do die, and get raised, stay down for a few extra moments if combat is still ongoing. Pick your time to get up.

- And know when to get up
If you die, don't go all ****** and start whining for heals. sh*t happens.
Once you are back up, don't totally hold back to save another death.
Evaluate why you died, and see if you had a chance to change things for next time
And if you get a raise late in a boss fight, target the boss and be ready to attack to drop it

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 5:32pm by Pawkeshup
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#17 Oct 02 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Another thing to add, but it's really MMO 101, is (as a DD) use your keymapping efficiently.

You're going to need to move around and use abilities and that's where a good keymap (along with macros) really help.

MMOs are strange because they are everchanging. So you're going to constantly be changing your keymaps, when you get new abilities, or when there's a new, more efficient way to play.

I'm actually not looking forward to changing up my keymaps, because on MNK (since I've hit 50) there's a lot to do; there's at least two rotations (that you have to keep up) and DoTs, as well as instants and defensive abilities.
#18 Oct 03 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks a lot for all the info, guys! I've already put a lot of it to use in the first 3 dungeons and so far so good. I haven't caused a wipe yet at least but there's plenty of time for that still I'm sure :P

Thanks again :)
#19 Oct 05 2013 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Another tip is to keep your eye on the hate meter. It's right beside your name on the party list. It tells you how much hate you have relative to the person who has the highest hate. The person who has the highest hate (usually the tank) will have a full meter with an "A" (probably stands for Agro) next to his name. If you have the number 2 next to your name, you're second in line.

If you see your meter filling up fast and about to get full, just hold back a bit.

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