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#1 Oct 01 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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I received this item from a quest in Quarrymill recently (lv 47 I think). Its unique and cannot be used in battle. Does anyone know if this item can be used multiple times or if its a one time use and when this would be used since you cant use it in battle to save yourself?
#2 Oct 01 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Only 1 time use
#3 Oct 02 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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And it can't be used in battle I believe... Not sure what SE is thinking with raise items not working in combat. They have the spell so restricted as to who can use it, and with weakness and and the cast time, the only time you would ever use a raise like ability in combat not as a whm is to raise your whm... But now the pressure is on the mages, since if they die it's a wipe. Where are any other player can die, and a party can usually continue (Depending on the situation).
#4 Oct 02 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, i'm guessing there might be some use to it depending on it not being a 10-second use delay. Anytime you freshly raise someone and the healer dies, or in cases where only one person survived and he can get the healer back up if getting back to the starting position and running back is not an option.

But yeah, little use. If it was battle-able, then perfect. Amazing item.
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#5 Oct 02 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Default
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rfolkker wrote:
And it can't be used in battle I believe... Not sure what SE is thinking with raise items not working in combat. They have the spell so restricted as to who can use it, and with weakness and and the cast time, the only time you would ever use a raise like ability in combat not as a whm is to raise your whm... But now the pressure is on the mages, since if they die it's a wipe. Where are any other player can die, and a party can usually continue (Depending on the situation).


Because it would be too Final Fantasy like if you can have multiple people raise you with items and the spells as a cross class skill. Much like it's Too Final Fantasy to have even a tiny reliance on using medicine throughout the battles, especially if low on MP...why boost your MP nicely by popping multiple hi-x ethers when you can pop one for a quarter of 1 cure cost and have a long cooldown afterwards?

The only thing SE was thinking: "This should be like other MMORPGs."


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#6 Oct 02 2013 at 8:42 AM Rating: Default
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Thank you, I am glad I am not the only one that feels this pain.

The other thing I "LOVE" (note the sarcasm) is that now debuff pots have Item levels, and most don't work on the level 50 boss fights... Seriously, what else are you going to use them on???

It just seems that SE is getting lazy with the boss mechanics and not bothering with adding in the option of using pots on/during boss fights. At least the High Elixir and High X-Ether are actually useful, and give enough of a return to come in handy... Though their activation time sucks considering battle speed.
#7 Oct 02 2013 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, in that respect it's like XI. We didn't even have Phoenix downs in XI (well we did but they were a crafting material.) Ethers and Hi pots were so expensive at lower levels that no one ever bothered with them except in boss fights. Drink boosts for regen and refresh were a lot cheaper and more efficient. (Oh Yagudoh Drink, how amazing you were.)

Since everyone in XIV has auto regen and refresh and ethers/potions are cheap and plentiful, SE decided to limit it instead with the cooldown timer. I agree it's stupid long but I can see their reasoning.

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#8 Oct 02 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Actually, in that respect it's like XI. We didn't even have Phoenix downs in XI (well we did but they were a crafting material.) Ethers and Hi pots were so expensive at lower levels that no one ever bothered with them except in boss fights. Drink boosts for regen and refresh were a lot cheaper and more efficient. (Oh Yagudoh Drink, how amazing you were.)

Since everyone in XIV has auto regen and refresh and ethers/potions are cheap and plentiful, SE decided to limit it instead with the cooldown timer. I agree it's stupid long but I can see their reasoning.



Yeah that Yaguda Drink was something else =D
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#9 Oct 02 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
The only thing SE was thinking: "This should be like other MMORPGs."


But do you actually get why MMOs do this now? See, it wasn't always like this.

WoW originally didn't have a cooldown on potions. I know this because when I started, I had the **** things on IV drip. I leveled Alchemy and whatever the Botany/gather was for that to make my own. I literally could not die. Nothing, absolutely nothing, could kill me because all I needed to do was keep right on drinking.

And here's an example from the Beta of this game. I was on MRD, and had not leveled any healer classes. I came up on a quest that spawns diremites in succession. The first time it cause me totally offguard and I died. The next time. I killed each mob by beating it down to a sliver then using sprint and terrain to kite it in a circle, drank a Hi-Potion, and waited out the cooldown before killing the mob. Now if there was no cooldown, I could just get a stack of Hi-Pots and facetank like a pro.

It's called balance.

Edit:

And before you bring up any other FF where items didn't break it, remember that pretty much every other non-MMO FF, using items took a turn, so you had to choose to deal damage or use items, where in MMOs, you can pretty much burn an item relatively quickly and just keep on keeping on.

Edited, Oct 2nd 2013 12:19pm by Pawkeshup
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#10 Oct 02 2013 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Even with that said, I don't understand what the real problem is if the cool down was say 15-30 seconds, they could only be used as a stop-gap. If you are in a serious fight (e.g. Titan), you could use it as a dd to keep yourself alive during Tulmuts, while the Whm focuses on the tank. This doesn't break the game, and doesn't make it so you can avoid moves (especially if the use timer was either on GCD, and/or it's own cast time, requiring you to stand still while using it).

Just as people like using exploits to make things easy, developers like to put in "safeguards" to make development easier.

But to be able to paralize, slow, dot, by potion doesn't throw off the balance of classes (Could you imagine having everyone bring a stack of poison pots to Titan), it would be a stop-gap for bad healing, bad damage situations.

And I know, the idea of elixir spam would be the first thing people would try to do (and personally I like the current level of healing that elixirs provide), but, if they keep the level as it is, where it is enough to save your ****, but not enough to keep you alive (unless you spam them like water), it does create a balance.

The other thing they could do, and this would be my favorite implementation. Make it so that medicated status is like weakness. The first time you use a potion, you get medicated. If you use one while medicated, it is only 1/2 as effective. If you use another it is only ~10% effective. This would neutralize any chance of real abuse, and allow them to work, as well as allow people to use say, a strength potion, and then if necessary a healing pot.
#11 Oct 02 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't want to argue this long, because it will get rather ridiculous, but you're saying that 1 minute is too long, yet 30 seconds would be ok. Let's do some math. So at the current 1 minute, it's 360/minute you can restore. With it at 30 seconds, that jumps to 720, nearing 1k/minute restored. Now, how fast are you taking damage? Well, in the dungeons I've gone through so far, your HP does go down fairly quickly as a DD tanking, but we cannot take that as a norm. We need to look at the tank, who'd be the one IVing if allowed. So, most tanks are not taking nearly that much every minute unless we're on a boss, and then only if they are just standing and eating everything. Now keep in mind I am still low, but we need to look at why I'm using this as an example. You see, potions have no level.

Think on that a moment. Potions have no level. That means that I, as a level 1, can down an Elixir. Sure, it'd be a waste, but I can. Now, let's say I have a friend who's a level 50 Alchemist. He could ship me an inventory-load of potions. Let's say, for sake of argument, they are all elixirs. Now, let's drop that cooldown again, to the lowest you suggested, 15 seconds. I can now, near infinitely, restore 1440HP/minute. Is this balanced? A level one capable of healing themselves for that much every minute?

OK, so let's say that now items are forced to have level-checks. That would stop that abuse, huh? True, but that's extra programming, as well as testing, and it limits content growth. If you look, there's a level 70 recipe out there for X-Potions. How does the level check work then, Item level? How much will they restore? Will they need to be nerfed into uselessness?

You have to understand, the 1 minute was not arbitrary. Math was done on every situation. And keep in mind that you can crossclass a Cure spell if you are truly hurting for heals. I did that on my PUG while solo farming/exping just to give me added survivability and lower downtime. You can argue that there are better systems, but realistically, this is an old argument that already been hashed out a long time ago.
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#12 Oct 02 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
I don't want to argue this long, because it will get rather ridiculous, but you're saying that 1 minute is too long, yet 30 seconds would be ok. Let's do some math. So at the current 1 minute, it's 360/minute you can restore. With it at 30 seconds, that jumps to 720, nearing 1k/minute restored. Now, how fast are you taking damage? Well, in the dungeons I've gone through so far, your HP does go down fairly quickly as a DD tanking, but we cannot take that as a norm. We need to look at the tank, who'd be the one IVing if allowed. So, most tanks are not taking nearly that much every minute unless we're on a boss, and then only if they are just standing and eating everything. Now keep in mind I am still low, but we need to look at why I'm using this as an example. You see, potions have no level.

Think on that a moment. Potions have no level. That means that I, as a level 1, can down an Elixir. Sure, it'd be a waste, but I can. Now, let's say I have a friend who's a level 50 Alchemist. He could ship me an inventory-load of potions. Let's say, for sake of argument, they are all elixirs. Now, let's drop that cooldown again, to the lowest you suggested, 15 seconds. I can now, near infinitely, restore 1440HP/minute. Is this balanced? A level one capable of healing themselves for that much every minute?

OK, so let's say that now items are forced to have level-checks. That would stop that abuse, huh? True, but that's extra programming, as well as testing, and it limits content growth. If you look, there's a level 70 recipe out there for X-Potions. How does the level check work then, Item level? How much will they restore? Will they need to be nerfed into uselessness?

You have to understand, the 1 minute was not arbitrary. Math was done on every situation. And keep in mind that you can crossclass a Cure spell if you are truly hurting for heals. I did that on my PUG while solo farming/exping just to give me added survivability and lower downtime. You can argue that there are better systems, but realistically, this is an old argument that already been hashed out a long time ago.


Sorry for the confusion. Some items have a medicated status of 2-3 minutes, with High Elixirs capping out at a whole 7! (I haven't confirmed all the pots in 2.0, but that was the case in 1.0). And Potions (Both buff and debuff as well as food) have level checks. They do their level check by only providing a percent of return, with a cap of a specific amount. At low levels, you get a better return from a lower item, than you do from a higher item. You would need to have ~2,200 HP in order for you to get the full return from a X-Pot or High Elixir (Both return 24%/560HP per use). At level 5, I have 100 HP give or take. That means using an High X-Pot or High Elixir will ultimately only give me 24 hp back. Where as a Potion will give me 32 HP. Add to that the fact that an X-Pot has a 2 minute cooldown, and a high elixir has a 7 minute cooldown, yeah, I see that as HIGHLY problematic, and completely useless!

Now, do I think that actually just globally dropping all timers to 15 seconds is realistic, practical, or even non-game breaking: No. What I do think is that some of the timers are beyond ridiculous, and they have relegated potions to near (or complete) worthlessness.

And to add insult to injury, they hand them out like candy.

However, after having this discussion, I can definitely see X-Pots coming in as a little bit of a stop gap at 2 mins for level 50, since I don't use any other potions anyways... If there were other potions I might use, something would have to give, as One prevents the other with that duration. Or just don't have 2 oh-no situations in a 2 minute window...
#13 Oct 02 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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rfolkker wrote:


The other thing I "LOVE" (note the sarcasm) is that now debuff pots have Item levels, and most don't work on the level 50 boss fights... Seriously, what else are you going to use them on???

Just to play devil's advocate, I imagine some people would use sleeping/blind/silence potions to do dungeon runs with non-standard party setups (e.g. 3 DPS+1 healer) to help deal with trash. Once PVP comes out, they might see more use as well, even though they have to be used in melee range and are non-instant. Maybe there'll be a Chemist class/job eventually, allowing ranged items usage a la Tactics.
#14 Oct 02 2013 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spammable potions put tanks and healers out of work. That is all.
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