Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Question about rotation Follow

#1 Oct 02 2013 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
*
91 posts
So I keep hearing is better to start off with thunder 2 first. I was wondering why not start with thunder 3 is there a reason for this? Will the proc for TC be lower on T3 or am I missing something here?
#2 Oct 02 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
Read this for the rotation:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=292&mid=137818379182149257

Read this for information about T1/T2/T3:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=138018237310066687
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=138018237310066687&h=100&p=1#27

Basically, T3 takes too long to cast. You're wasting mana by sitting at full while T3 is casting (or has gone off).

As I mentioned in that post, assuming you get two firestarter procs during your burn phase, T2 has the perfect duration. It will fall off as you go into the regen phase.

Its advantage is that it has lower cast time and can trigger thundercloud at the same rate as T3. The DoT component of thunder is just a tiny bit of our DPS.

That said, you could probably use T3 off the bat and never see much of a difference.
#3 Nov 04 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
***
3,178 posts
If you are full-on casting the main, single target rotation:

Thunder 2 > Fire III > (Raging Strikes) > Fire > Fire > Fire > Etc. > Blizzard III

Then the highest % of the time you will be able to re-apply Thunder II (without DoT clipping) as the spell that you cast between Blizzard III and Fire III.

The duration time just happens to last so it ends at exactly the right moment (considering an average amount of Firestarter and Thundercloud Procs).

Secondly, the 2.5 sec cast time can be done in between moving in HM battles, where 3 secs of standing still is often too long!
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#4 Nov 04 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
By the way, one consideration I forgot to mention and am coming across frequently is when a scholar uses fey glow. This increases spell speed for everyone in range of Selene (the fairy).

If I use T2, I will sometimes end up without max MP after I've casted T2 followed by fire 3. What I'm trying to say is, the spell speed gained from the ability is causing me to have to wait a short time after casting T2 so that I have full mana going into the astral fire 3 phase.

Not making sense still? Here is what I mean

Fey glow is used

1) Thunder 2
2) Fire 3
3) Fire 1 till OOM
3a) Cast fire 3 on firestarter proc
4) Cast blizzard 3
5) Cast thunder 2
6) Cast fire 3

7) Cast fire 1

The bolded is the section I am referring to. I will actually not get the last tick of umbral ice 3 while under the effects of fey glow which causes me to enter the burn phase (fire 3 > fire 1) without full MP.

My thoughts are: this might be due to latency or after you reach a certain % of spell speed. If the later situation is the case, you have the option of choosing to wait an extra second (probably less) for the last umbral ice 3 tick OR lead with thunder 3 instead.

I will probably just continue to wait for the umbral ice tick but these situations are going to become more relevant as we start stacking on spell speed so keep this in mind!
#5 Nov 05 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
***
3,178 posts
Hey I know what you mean!!

Remember the discussion about DoT clipping? So the same thing can be said about the timing of the MP regen ticks. (I think) They are based on an internal game timer without regard to when you cast your last spell, etc.

That explains why you get MP immediately sometimes, and have to wait other times.

So going into the end of Fire Spam:

Fire III under Astral III = 638
Blizzard under Astral III = 79

638 + 79 = 717. Don't spam more Fire at less than 717 MP.

-OR-

If you are determined to not wait to cast Thunder II (which I am) then you need to have 12 more MP. (Is that right Thunder 2 is 12 MP cost?).

So then stop Fire spam at less than 729 MP.

With regard to Fey Glow, don't you still get your last tick of MP while casting Fire III?



Edited, Nov 5th 2013 3:18pm by Gnu

Edited, Nov 5th 2013 7:09pm by Gnu
#6 Nov 06 2013 at 3:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
Almost positive T2 costs more than 12 MP! Thank you for hammering those numbers out, though. I'll check in-game tomorrow (if someone doesn't do it for me!) to give you the MP cost.

Yes, with fey glow I will /sometimes/ not get my last tick of MP when fire 3 has finished. Like you said: it's determined internally by the server so there are some rare occurrences where the tick takes its maximum duration and I'm stuck with 3 stacks of astral fire unable to gain the final tick.

Edit:

T1 is 212 MP
T2 is 319 MP
T3 is 425 MP

Edited, Nov 6th 2013 2:27pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#7 Nov 19 2013 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
***
3,178 posts
Ahha!

319 + 717 = 1037

That makes so much sense. Lately, whenever Fire 1 puts me below 1000, I just go ahead and Blizzard III > Thunder II. I suppose I'm hurting DPS doing this though. But it does make sure Thunder II is being cast during MP regen time, with NO waiting.

Another thing I've been doing is Casting Swiftcast+Flare pretty much whenever it's up at the end of my fire spam. Because of the -4 secs casting time when Swiftcast is up, it seems that this actually puts it ahead of other options even though you have to Transpose > Blizzard of some kind afterwards. When Convert is actually up, then that's even better clearly. I think that even without Convert up, using your last ~212 MP to cast Swiftcast+Flare still comes out ahead compared to Blizzard III > Fire III. That is perhaps situational rather than true for a long fight. If your going to win the fight soon anyway Flare is better, IMO.

BTW, have you noticed that if the fight is going to end anyway, casting Fire III before your MP fills all the way, on the first MP regen tick, actually gets the fight done faster? Then you just transpose as you run to the next mobs.

#8 Nov 20 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
6 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
By the way, one consideration I forgot to mention and am coming across frequently is when a scholar uses fey glow. This increases spell speed for everyone in range of Selene (the fairy).

If I use T2, I will sometimes end up without max MP after I've casted T2 followed by fire 3. What I'm trying to say is, the spell speed gained from the ability is causing me to have to wait a short time after casting T2 so that I have full mana going into the astral fire 3 phase.

Not making sense still? Here is what I mean

Fey glow is used

1) Thunder 2
2) Fire 3
3) Fire 1 till OOM
3a) Cast fire 3 on firestarter proc
4) Cast blizzard 3
5) Cast thunder 2
6) Cast fire 3

7) Cast fire 1

The bolded is the section I am referring to. I will actually not get the last tick of umbral ice 3 while under the effects of fey glow which causes me to enter the burn phase (fire 3 > fire 1) without full MP.

My thoughts are: this might be due to latency or after you reach a certain % of spell speed. If the later situation is the case, you have the option of choosing to wait an extra second (probably less) for the last umbral ice 3 tick OR lead with thunder 3 instead.

I will probably just continue to wait for the umbral ice tick but these situations are going to become more relevant as we start stacking on spell speed so keep this in mind!


I have also run across this situation and what I do is use Scathe as a filler. It is essentially an extra GCD for your regen to tick while you do some damage. The same applies to transitioning into the regen phase. I like to go into the regen phase with enough mana to be able to cast T2 and get back to the burn phase. This makes me stop casting Fire 1 if I drop below ~1000 MP. But even then if my MP is hovering just over 1000 MP i still cast Fire 1 and just change the rotation from:

Blizzard 3
Thunder 2
Fire 3

to this

Blizzard 3
Scathe
Thunder 2
Fire 3

And I may be alone in this thinking but I do not like using Flare as a part of my rotation unless Convert is up. I loathe having to use Transpose outside of a Flare/Transpose/Blizzard 2 AOE rotation.
#9 Nov 21 2013 at 4:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
I've been toying with these ideas. I can't really say I have any strong evidence for or against them.

One thing we can all agree on is that we do not like waiting for the server's internal GCD timer to kick in.

One way to get around that is, as you have mentioned, only go down to 1000 MP and then go into the regen phase instead of continuing to spam fire 1. This would be a good rotation when not opening. At the same time, we're still sitting at max MP for longer than a 'tick' while T2 goes off so we're technically wasting DPS.

I find there isn't much of a difference either way and it seems to be based on what you prefer.

I do try to avoid casting flare when it isn't needed. I do not like waiting on the servers timer any time I don't need to. Having to transpose is a pain in the ****...however! I agree with Gnu in the fact that it can be a viable option if convert is up. Generally, I like to save convert for my burn phases to get as much of the astral fire phase out of them as possible. I also like to use it when I need to DPS a target super quickly (conflag in T5) and am out of mana.

Really, you'll have to find out what works for you personally. Lately I've become a bit lazy in parsing myself against others. I usually only look at parses now if there is a DPS problem...such as a person dying in conflag.

Testing most of this is just a matter of performing you rotation on a target dummy for a good 10~15 minutes and then looking at your DPS on Logrep.

Edited, Nov 21st 2013 5:56am by HitomeOfBismarck
#10 Nov 21 2013 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
***
3,178 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

I like to save convert for my burn phases to get as much of the astral fire phase out of them as possible.


Oh yeah. I remember you saying this before. One thing I've noticed is that if you do not get ANY Thundercloud or Firestarter procs, you will run low on MP before Raging Strikes is run out (or if you slide the instant cast in without triggering GCD). That Convert would give you the +2 Fires that would count for at least a Flare + Transpose/Blizz. Not to mention 2 more chances for Firestarter.

On that note, yet another Pro for Thunder II over Thunder III occurred to me. Seeing as every Thundercloud Proc effective causes you to DoT clip, Thunder II's lesser duration actually decreases this loss. In other words, Thundercloud procs can make the +.5 second of extra casting time for Thunder III not count for extra DPS at all.


Edited, Nov 21st 2013 5:46pm by Gnu
#11 Jan 27 2014 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
Konfuzzle wrote:
So I keep hearing is better to start off with thunder 2 first. I was wondering why not start with thunder 3 is there a reason for this? Will the proc for TC be lower on T3 or am I missing something here?



Check out my very short video on how to do Ceelos ST DPS Rotations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjh1kFT7DwM

And here is my Twitch channel, come join us in chat and hang out and spectate !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjh1kFT7DwM

And dont forget to follow the channel
____________________________
Top Tier FC < The Resistance >@ Adamantoise ( HARDCORE ) has open recruitment, apply@ www.theresistancefc.com
ilvl 90 + Allagan Sceptor BLM, ilvl 83 SMN, ilvl 88 PLD, ilvl 72 WHM $ SCH, Farming Turns 1~5 each Reset Night
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 3 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (3)