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A bit confused on endgame crafted gear...Follow

#27 Oct 04 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Vawn43 wrote:
This is why I miss FFXI equipment swapping macros along with different abilities requiring different stats.

This, I do not miss. At all. Ever. It was a terrible system.

"HAY GUIES I GOT A GREAT IDEA LETS MAKE A GAME WITH 20 PLAYABLE JOBS BUT THEN INCENTIVIZE CARRYING 70 PIECES OF GEAR FOR EACH ONE TO BE UBER AT IT!!!"


Honestly, it wasn't difficult and didn't take all that long to create a macro or XML to swap in gear. Being 'uber' at your job didn't require much, but understanding how stats affected your spells and abilities would definitely fall in that category.
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#28 Oct 04 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Honestly, it wasn't difficult and didn't take all that long to create a macro or XML to swap in gear. Being 'uber' at your job didn't require much, but understanding how stats affected your spells and abilities would definitely fall in that category.


- Not everyone used Windower
- You obviously weren't a mage
- You likely didn't try to gear more than one 75 back in they days of limited space

Seriously, it was a @#%^ing annoying system. Hated it.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 3:59pm by Pawkeshup
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#29 Oct 04 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seriha wrote:
And it's mentalities like this that basically stagnate the evolution of progression schemes within MMOs. Why does equipment crafting inevitably become useless to people in so many of these games? Because people foolishly demand dungeon drops be better. Why? So people will want to run dungeons. What if you don't like dungeons?


Why would you even care about gear for raids if you're not... you know, raiding? If you don't care about dungeons then what you wear doesn't really matter and shouldn't be a concern.

I think his point is that if you don't earn the gear then you haven't really proven that you have the necessary skill to put it to use, even if you could craft it. If you make it available to anyone, it kinda defeats the purpose of raiding.

Thanks for proving this point:
I wrote:
Enjoy the dungeons for the challenge, not the ability to lord over people who don't have the same gear. Every time I see someone advocating this kind of gap, ultimately I just see someone petty over the possibility someone they'll never interact with might not work as hard as they did for some pixels.


Quote:
The general idea of raiding is that each subsequent raid becomes increasingly more difficult and the rewards become better as you progress. That's what progression is about and that's why it's the more popular and most common model for running dungeon content. Sure it's not for everyone, but it works the way it does because that's how people(the majority anyway) who do enjoy it, want it to work.

I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.

When I said that work is work and the only benefit raiding should offer is speed in acquisition, I meant it. You don't tell a guy who's worked a minimum wage job for years that he can't buy a car because he's not a doctor making six figures. What you're essentially advocating is that no matter how many people and for how long they work at non-raid (low wage) environment, they will never, ever, ever, be able to get that new piece of gear (the car). Surely you're not blind to the fact that this creates a wall of progression that, if perceived insurmountable, can tempt players to, you know, quit? And you're arguing against remedying this essentially because some people will have their feelings hurt and that those who only tolerate the raiding game because it's the only way to progress might actually flip it the bird and do things the other way?

Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 4:22pm by Seriha
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#30 Oct 04 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.


I really wish that day were here. I loved the concept of 1.0 that you could start and level as a crafter. I always viewed it as a missed opportunity to have an entire alternate storyline. This time, you aren't the hero. You are his camp follower. Mending and making for them. Scouting ahead using Stealth.

But then, yea... not so much.
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#31 Oct 04 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Why would you even care about gear for raids if you're not... you know, raiding? If you don't care about dungeons then what you wear doesn't really matter and shouldn't be a concern.


Just to add to what Seriha wrote, there is definitely going to be that group of people who LOVE crafting their own gear (we have a bunch of them on the forums here, myself included). Some of these people may not have the drive or time to commit to intense raiding (myself not included - fully intend to get to it eventually) but would still like their gear to be on par for things like FATEs, quests etc. Even if the reason to keep up in terms of gear progression is as simple as not being perceived as a 'gimp' - who cares what the reason is? It doesn't matter in the end really.

Not to mention that getting the appropriate craft(s) up to max level and getting all your crafting gear HQd so you can make the highest iLvl70 HQ battle gear and meld it with rare mateira actually does take quite a bit of work.

That being said, not too sure how to remedy the situation. There will always be people who fall on both sides of the debate.
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#32 Oct 04 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perhaps a slight derail, but I feel its relevant.

I have no interest in Endgame raid content. Too many egos, too much focus on the prize and not enough on just enjoying the game. That's how I see it, but there are clearly a large number of players who thrive and enjoy that. And its only fair they should be able to advance their characters through raids to upgrade their gear, be it from drops or tokens or whatever may be the case.

But for those of us who have no interest in raiding, I wish some kind of solo "endgame' content would be devised. It would be nice for those of us who like to see just how far we can take a class on our own, without the particular issues that come with raids.

In terms of gear, there would possibly (and I emphasize "possibly") be a greater emphasis on crafted gear, maybe the recipes could drops along with some of the mats. I'm sort of rambling about this, just sort of came to me while I was typing, but its something I think would be nice for those of us who happen to appreciate solo content.
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#33 Oct 04 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ideally, they can put the super high end ingredient at the end of the raid, they get the ingredient and ask the crafter to made the item like how they did with vrtra and kirin back then. It would actually made crafter being needed. Then again we run into this issue.

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#34 Oct 04 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seriha wrote:
And it's mentalities like this that basically stagnate the evolution of progression schemes within MMOs. Why does equipment crafting inevitably become useless to people in so many of these games? Because people foolishly demand dungeon drops be better. Why? So people will want to run dungeons. What if you don't like dungeons?


Why would you even care about gear for raids if you're not... you know, raiding? If you don't care about dungeons then what you wear doesn't really matter and shouldn't be a concern.

I think his point is that if you don't earn the gear then you haven't really proven that you have the necessary skill to put it to use, even if you could craft it. If you make it available to anyone, it kinda defeats the purpose of raiding.

Thanks for proving this point:
I wrote:
Enjoy the dungeons for the challenge, not the ability to lord over people who don't have the same gear. Every time I see someone advocating this kind of gap, ultimately I just see someone petty over the possibility someone they'll never interact with might not work as hard as they did for some pixels.



Quote:
The general idea of raiding is that each subsequent raid becomes increasingly more difficult and the rewards become better as you progress. That's what progression is about and that's why it's the more popular and most common model for running dungeon content. Sure it's not for everyone, but it works the way it does because that's how people(the majority anyway) who do enjoy it, want it to work.

I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.

When I said that work is work and the only benefit raiding should offer is speed in acquisition, I meant it. You don't tell a guy who's worked a minimum wage job for years that he can't buy a car because he's not a doctor making six figures. What you're essentially advocating is that no matter how many people and for how long they work at non-raid (low wage) environment, they will never, ever, ever, be able to get that new piece of gear (the car). Surely you're not blind to the fact that this creates a wall of progression that, if perceived insurmountable, can tempt players to, you know, quit? And you're arguing against remedying this essentially because some people will have their feelings hurt and that those who only tolerate the raiding game because it's the only way to progress might actually flip it the bird and do things the other way?

Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 4:22pm by Seriha


Well if you are working a minimum wage job for years, no you can't buy a Bentley get a Toyota. If you want that super expensive car raise you level in life through school hard work and lots of sacrifice. I fail to why not put the best gear and best items in the game in the hardest raids where you great gear to complete. If not what is the point Of progressing to the next hard challenge or even doing raids not then a few times. But the biggest question I have is if you are not tackling the hardest raids doing endgame why care about those drops? What would you need that gear for fates? Farming? Levee?
#35 Oct 04 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Canadensis wrote:
That being said, not too sure how to remedy the situation. There will always be people who fall on both sides of the debate.

First step would be to obviously add the recipes for such synths.

Second is to pin the source of these materials.

I'm not exactly a fan of the Unspoiled node dynamic because its a factor of RL time and being on at a specific point. Rather, from the gathering end, I'd rather each tier of node have specific materials that could randomly spawn for gathering as you engage them. So, if we're talking gear for level 50s, then level 50 nodes would occasionally have these materials available. Of course, SE would need to get on the ball about RMT gathering here.

Another source would be from the GC vendors, not unlike how you can use tomes to buy materials there. FATEs have none of the baggage of needing to sit in the DF queue if you're a DPS. They're always up somewhere. There's no pressure to do it for hours straight. Just play at your own pace knowing eventually you'll get to the reward.

Third avenue is actual mob drops, but I'm exceedingly hesitant about this for reasons associated with Diremite Webs and the like. Mob populations, especially specific types, are perhaps too sparse to be advocating scorched earth farming policies. Instead, perhaps broaden it to world drops. For the level 50 gear mentioned above, give all level 46-50 mobs a small chance to drop a material specific to these crafts. I am aware there are no non-FATE level 50 mobs in the open world right now, but that's something a patch could fix easy peasy.

Fourth is more a mix of two and three with specific FATEs rewarding materials based on your performance rank. I don't want them on Odin/Behemoth tier spawn frequency, but let's say killing Cancer and getting gold would reward you with something for some mid-30s gear.

Fifth could include the "treasure hunting" thing they teased where gathers could find maps to loot in a given zone.

Sixth could tie in leves, either as the randomized reward associate with some, or even within coffers or the rare NM drops.

Finally, integrating existing recipes into the mix isn't a bad idea. Let's run with point 4, there, and add the caveat that to make this mid-30s piece of gear, you need an HQ armor piece from the current list. When people feel inclined, you'll see them burning through the mats to make such items, thus making gathering more profitable for those who enjoy it. Granted, I do see people skipping these synths if they know they'll be outleveling them quickly, but here's where the impending vanity system can come into play by giving all this gear cool looks. So even if they don't use an item for combat, they may want it to look cool.

SE's got options. They just have to be willing to endure the temporary bellyaching.

Quote:
If not what is the point Of progressing to the next hard challenge or even doing raids not then a few times.

Is the fun of conquering these challenges not enough?
Quote:
But the biggest question I have is if you are not tackling the hardest raids doing endgame why care about those drops?

Consider people wouldn't actually care about the drops if there were alternatives for them to chase with their own play style. Until then, kindly divorce yourself from that ugly "hard work and sacrifice" philosophy you're carrying there. This is a game. Not RL 2.0. Escapism's a cool thing. Even therapeutic at times. Or perhaps I should be crass and psychoanalyze this into the belief your own life sucks and you need the prestige an MMO offers to feel better about yourself and the ****** life you've failed to level up in. No? Okay then.
Quote:
What would you need that gear for fates? Farming? Levee?

Fun. Progression. Something to do without suckling the teats of other players and tolerating endgame politics with all their parroting a guide someone else put uphard work and sacrifice.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 5:12pm by Seriha
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#36 Oct 04 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:

I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.



I could be wrong, but I think Blizzard said this at the end of Burning Crusade, that they were tired of making end game content that only 5% of the player base were actually playing though. Hence the hard modes they had in Wrath of the Lich King, That way the "hardcores" still get their prestige mode with better drops, and the casuals can still got to play through end game content. Which personally I am a huge fan of this model, mostly cause I'm a casual and I just don't have time to turn my game time into a second job.
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#37 Oct 04 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jeskradha wrote:
Seriha wrote:

I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.



I could be wrong, but I think Blizzard said this at the end of Burning Crusade, that they were tired of making end game content that only 5% of the player base were actually playing though. Hence the hard modes they had in Wrath of the Lich King, That way the "hardcores" still get their prestige mode with better drops, and the casuals can still got to play through end game content. Which personally I am a huge fan of this model, mostly cause I'm a casual and I just don't have time to turn my game time into a second job.

Indeed. And while other games can be fickle about numbers, I recall a blurb from TERA devs about how only 15% or so of people had completed a certain tier of content by the time they released their next. FFXI had census data relative to mission progression in the past, and it was obvious for things like pre-nerf CoP where people were held up. I still wish Rift would get this message, though, as while they finally released some upgrade infinity stone gear with their 2.4 patch, it's still inferior to raid counterparts and sorely grindy for that diminished result.

Of course, Blizz tackled the "never see" thing another way, too, with the LFR buff that builds on wipes. I know the purists utterly loathe such a thing and claim it a death knell to MMOs, but if it means I get a game where I don't have to put up with this 5-15% stinking up the community telling everyone what they're not allowed to do, bring it on.
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#38 Oct 04 2013 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Why not just have no gear at all? Just have abilities open up when you level and just make great free vanity models that just customize how you look. Make everything baseline stats so everyone is on the same level. And remove gill so no need to grind and everyone has the same access to everything.
#39 Oct 04 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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The "now you just want everything handed to you" defense, everybody.

See, this is what happens when you threaten the raiders' ego. No middle ground. No compromise. Their way or GTFO.
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#40 Oct 04 2013 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
Why not just have no gear at all? Just have abilities open up when you level and just make great free vanity models that just customize how you look. Make everything baseline stats so everyone is on the same level. And remove gill so no need to grind and everyone has the same access to everything.


I like it! And while you're at it get rid of those annoying experience points. I am sick of elitests who say I can't do their end-game dungeon because I'm only level 19. Well EXCUSE ME for having a life and not living in my mom's basement, so I don't have time to gain levels.

We should just have no levels at all, no gear (except for vanity reasons) and should all be equal in every sense. Then we don't even need to do those annoying dungeons or kill anything. Instead we can just sit around town and chat about our day. THIS is what a MMO should be.
#41 Oct 04 2013 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.


I really wish that day were here. I loved the concept of 1.0 that you could start and level as a crafter.


You do realize that day IS here and that game not only exists but has a HUGE following right? Now, I'm not saying quit FFXIV, it's class system makes it a fine game, but Guild Wars 2 is literally constructed just has you described, with a variety of means for alternative progression. Even the end game "raid like" dungeon they got and it's "ascended" gear can be acquired through other means AND crafting is a necessity for a variety of things, exotic tier accessories, for example. FFXIV has the potential to be the better game, but until they flesh out some of this stuff, like crafting and add simple features like right click blacklisting of gil sellers and chat functions that allow discussion of items in a way you can view their stats etc. are all things the game desperately needs. The archaic quest architecture would also dramatically benefit from a major overhaul. FFXIV has the potential to be number one, but it needs a lot of fine tuning to get there. I for one would be ecstatic to see such changes in the game and for certain aspects of the game to be modernized, instead of trying to copy archaic mechanics from WoW that no one ever really liked in the first place.
#42 Oct 04 2013 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Zettomer wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.


I really wish that day were here. I loved the concept of 1.0 that you could start and level as a crafter.


You do realize that day IS here and that game not only exists but has a HUGE following right? Now, I'm not saying quit FFXIV, it's class system makes it a fine game, but Guild Wars 2 is literally constructed just has you described, with a variety of means for alternative progression. Even the end game "raid like" dungeon they got and it's "ascended" gear can be acquired through other means AND crafting is a necessity for a variety of things, exotic tier accessories, for example. FFXIV has the potential to be the better game, but until they flesh out some of this stuff, like crafting and add simple features like right click blacklisting of gil sellers and chat functions that allow discussion of items in a way you can view their stats etc. are all things the game desperately needs. The archaic quest architecture would also dramatically benefit from a major overhaul. FFXIV has the potential to be number one, but it needs a lot of fine tuning to get there. I for one would be ecstatic to see such changes in the game and for certain aspects of the game to be modernized, instead of trying to copy archaic mechanics from WoW that no one ever really liked in the first place.

Not quite. Despite the good things GW2 does with crafting (mat stash, for example), you can't craft ascended quality gear, which comes most reliably from fractals (or dungeons). Acquiring the laurels otherwise restricts you to daily limits and the occasional achievement tier. With achievements cross-account, leveling multiple avatars creates the impossibility of gearing them all equally at a decent pace. Their legendary weapons are pretty much a joke and the epitome of that paradise RMT and hardcores adore. As well, the fixation with temporary content really isn't friendly for those who can't be there in the moment. I stopped GW2 shortly before SL launched for Rift. The endgame is pretty much the same now as it was then. Coincidentally, this "nothing to do" problem is why I left XI because I had no care for XI's emphasis on alliance content, or as close to dungeon running as it got. In turn, trying to make money as an open world PvEer was basically an impossibility between teleport and repair costs with how how little cash open world content generated. Basically, Anet caved to the RMT bogeyman by making things bad for the players to be bad for them (diminished drop rates over time being one such mechanism). Trying to buy gems via gold for basic functions like more bag or character slots is pretty much a losing battle because. There's also something to be said about all the game's forced capping staving off that sense of progression, too.

More aptly, when the raiders get their "next tier" then the open worlders should get their "next tier" of stuff to do, too. In XIV's case, that means more zones, quests (with plot), FATEs, crafts, and gatherables. You can get fancy with other stuff, too, but PvP and raiding isn't as popular as some posters would want us to believe.
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#43 Oct 05 2013 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Honestly, it wasn't difficult and didn't take all that long to create a macro or XML to swap in gear. Being 'uber' at your job didn't require much, but understanding how stats affected your spells and abilities would definitely fall in that category.


- Not everyone used Windower
- You obviously weren't a mage
- You likely didn't try to gear more than one 75 back in they days of limited space

Seriously, it was a @#%^ing annoying system. Hated it.


You didn't need windower to create a normal macro and (if needed) you could swap your entire gear set and cast with two button strokes(kb). Whether or not you were a mage isn't really relevant. I was mainly WAR COR and MNK and all of those jobs(as well as any other job you wanted to excel at) required gear swaps for almost everything you'd do outside of standing there waiting on TP. I played from 2003 on so yes, I did gear several 75s in the 'PS2 limitations' days.

I'm not saying it was the most intuitive system and I'll agree that it was annoying, but it didn't require spreadsheets and calculators.

Seriha wrote:
I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.


I completely agree, but that doesn't remove progression from the equation. When new content is released it's difficult. Most players don't reach it and they do level off at a plateau before seeing it, but that doesn't mean they won't see it at all. Obvious example; in WoW most players plateau out in LFR raids that they can run on their own time a la duty finder. When the next tier of raids come out, the previous tier is 'nerfed' and becomes something that players who previously didn't have the time to dedicate can do because it's more casual friendly. I would imagine that is the reason why current raids in XIV are going to be watered-down come 2.1 and beyond.

I think Yoshi realizes that this was a major flaw in the design of XI. While they did add jobs and tweak abilities to add new content to the game, they didn't overhaul the main mechanics of(at the time) level 75 endgame. It stagnated and I think Yoshi and crew are going to try and move away from that regardless of where they settle in before levels are capped for good.

Seriha wrote:
When I said that work is work and the only benefit raiding should offer is speed in acquisition, I meant it. You don't tell a guy who's worked a minimum wage job for years that he can't buy a car because he's not a doctor making six figures.


Great example. No, I wouldn't tell someone they could or couldn't buy a car, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Look at it this way instead:

Your job doesn't dictate whether or not you can buy a car, but it does dictate what type of car you can afford. Now reapply that to raiding. Your hard work in raids will afford you the gear you need should you prefer the sports car over the economy coupe.

It's not about prestige, it's about the ability to set and measure your goals. Some people want to push to their limits and some just enjoy a casual challenge. By allowing for both, SE won't be catering to casual or hardcore; just gamers in general.

Canadensis wrote:
Just to add to what Seriha wrote, there is definitely going to be that group of people who LOVE crafting their own gear (we have a bunch of them on the forums here, myself included). Some of these people may not have the drive or time to commit to intense raiding (myself not included - fully intend to get to it eventually) but would still like their gear to be on par for things like FATEs, quests etc. Even if the reason to keep up in terms of gear progression is as simple as not being perceived as a 'gimp' - who cares what the reason is? It doesn't matter in the end really.


Most people, if given the option, will completely skip out on tiers of content if given the option to craft gear equivalent to the highest level raid drops. Take FATEs for example... Gear in FATEs is a non-factor. Why then would anyone bother gearing themselves out if they will still be just as efficient wearing stuff from 10 levels prior? Why would someone spend the time grinding through primals or early coils if they can craft equivalent drops in less time?

The only way I've ever seen it work well is in WoW where you have the ability to craft a few pieces of raid quality gear. It's not broken if you allow crafters to make a helm and gauntlets on par with top tier content, but allowing much more only promotes people skipping over content that they might otherwise enjoy; at the least they'd learn from it.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#44 Oct 05 2013 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

The only way I've ever seen it work well is in WoW where you have the ability to craft a few pieces of raid quality gear. It's not broken if you allow crafters to make a helm and gauntlets on par with top tier content, but allowing much more only promotes people skipping over content that they might otherwise enjoy; at the least they'd learn from it.


I do think being able to craft high end gear is an interesting concept, I didn't like this in wow simply because these items almost became a "must have" just to get into raiding, The best example I can think of is a weapon called the Titan Steel Destroyer, In Wrath it was a must have for Death Knight tanks just because it was the BiS pre-raid, which is something I think Blizzard said they wanted to get away from. The Frozen Shadow Weave set from Burning Crusade is another perfect example of this which Blizzard admitted was a mistake.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Obvious example; in WoW most players plateau out in LFR raids that they can run on their own time a la duty finder. When the next tier of raids come out, the previous tier is 'nerfed' and becomes something that players who previously didn't have the time to dedicate can do because it's more casual friendly.


While I think this is somewhat true, I also think its wrong just in the fact that most people are not going to be interested in running a dumb downed version of a raid that was already dumb'ed down that they have already been farming in LFR. When new content is released, people are going to want to play the new content.

And someone who is a casual, in my opinion, is not going to have an easier time forming a raid just because the content is now easier. If I cant find 10 people to get together at a set time now, its highly unlikely that I will a month from now just because the content is easier.

Honestly, this is why I think just having different tiers of difficulty is the best option, you have your hard modes for your "hardcore" players, and your easy modes for people who are not interested in banging their head against the same boss for 4 weeks in a row. Cause for me its really not about the gear, its about being able to see the content.

That being said though, I personally was not a fan of the LFR in Cataclysm simply because of the fact that it was too easy to get carried through it. I haven't played WoW in quite some time so I'm not sure if that's changed or not. I guess its just hard to find an easy balance where everyone is happy.
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#45 Oct 05 2013 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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Just skipping on quoting since it's late for me and I'm getting tired. So tangential babbling will also result.

A lot of times I feel like the concept of working hard in MMOs is a bit too skewed. In my multiple MMO career, working hard is actually rarely what wins a battle, but simply understanding its mechanics and having the gear to make sure you push through DPS checks or don't get facerolled by hits as a tank both with mitigation and healing. I could argue this a fault of attacks largely never missing unless they're part of a "get out of the red" mechanic, but even in TERA or GW2 where combat was more reactive, gear was still pretty clutch. There's just no amount of skill to be had that changes the fact 2 is greater than 1.

Knowledge, nonetheless, accumulates. Maybe you lose a few times, then you win. Then you keep winning. Then it goes on farm. Then you're calling something stupid easy months later while someone else is grumbling about difficulty. That understanding may be a sense of progression, but I'd also propose that if you're someone looking up guides or watching videos, you're not so much developing your skills as it is borrowing the work of others. Fundamentally, I don't really have a problem with that. It's social interaction in what people tout to be social games. My issue, however, is when you see these rank and file sheep players who aren't the leaders of their guilds talking **** like they figured it all out and everyone must obviously be in the same position as they are. When I clamor for alternate progression, it's not because I believe the people that would take advantage of it have no skill. It's simply an understanding that the raiding game isn't for everyone for numerous reasons, but that doesn't mean the game has to be not for them on the whole once they finish their quests and level to cap. Overcoming those hurdles isn't as simple as just saying, "Start your own party!" or to wait for the nerf that may or may not come in the future. Wanting to play together in the now, not three months from now, isn't a bad thing!

But on the working hard thing, most often it'll be the healers that wind up genuinely taxed. It's why this role is often in demand because the pressure isn't something everyone can cope with and certainly don't enjoy when seeking their entertainment. I did my time in FFXI as the sub-optimal healer on RDM in Dynamis parties and all that jazz. It just wasn't fun and part of why I clamored so hard for RDM melee buffs so the job could actually break away from that fate. Right now, in XIV, I don't think I've actually fought anything truly hard. In examining the occasional failure, if it's a fight our group didn't know, it'd require pointing out some things that happened to avoid them. I've died on the Demon Wall because I derped and forgot it was the second goop cycle post-bugs and got bounced off the edge. **** happens. I laugh about it. Tried doing Garuda Hard tonight, and while I understood everything that was going on, our group just didn't have enough DPS to really handle her clones reliably, nevermind the secondary tank not understanding the fact that stacking the red one on the green really hurt the healers with the double cleaves going on. I have no doubt I'll beat her in the future, though. So when it does happen, there won't really be that rush for me that some seem to thrive on. I hear Titan horror stories, but I'm not exactly worried there, either. Maybe this is just my MMO vet-ness having "seen it all" in one form or another.

There's also a part of me that outright finds it insulting when people insist this stuff is work, too. When I think of work, I think to a month back when I'm helping my sister unload a U-Haul, carrying dozens of heavy boxes down a steep hill into her basement and then the eventual lugging of a 600 pound piano down a number of uneven steps. Or the job I had a decade back working at a dog track with 14 hour shifts going up and down steps the whole time. Or how my brother-in-law works in a coal mine. Sitting in a chair clicking buttons doesn't come anywhere close in comparison, so thee are times I sit here thinking when I see people defending this system of tiering that they're just kids with no actual responsibility and understanding for why people may think differently and want different things in their games. It's actually a bit maddening at times to even think I have to be typing things out like this, that it should be common sense that not everyone can throw countless hours into these games with no other obligations. But then I realize that some of the people making the flawed games a decade ago are still at it today, with some fresh blood who grew up on those games trying to recreate those glory days through their rose-tinted glasses. And too often it doesn't work. Not so much because of lack of innovation, but a simple lack of respect for the lives people live beyond the keyboard. It's why I tend to abandon courtesy when I see the same old tired excuses thrown out for why things are the way they are. It's those things that keep me from trying to get my brother-in-law into these games, or my sisters, or bluntly why I never actually tell anyone I play them unless I learn they play MMOs first. The bad mental exhaustion that can come with them is not a torture I believe all of them could endure. And I'm not blind to the fact it can make me a *****. I don't want to be, but as long as the genre's basically advocating caste systems, it's gonna be there by virtue of my white knight personality wanting to stick up for the little guy.

Of course, even if I did get my wish, I know there'd be some who'd take the path of least resistance just because they could. Doesn't bug me, honestly. Could see one person using mixed methods to max a job more quickly. The next could gear one job one way, then another the other. No dev will ever eliminate the reasons for why people can't or won't do dungeons, though. It's even a bit risky to tie them story content like they have here, too. Overall, there's a fine line between incentive and pressure, and pressure seems more the genre norm.
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#46 Oct 05 2013 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Jeskradha wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Obvious example; in WoW most players plateau out in LFR raids that they can run on their own time a la duty finder. When the next tier of raids come out, the previous tier is 'nerfed' and becomes something that players who previously didn't have the time to dedicate can do because it's more casual friendly.


While I think this is somewhat true, I also think its wrong just in the fact that most people are not going to be interested in running a dumb downed version of a raid that was already dumb'ed down that they have already been farming in LFR. When new content is released, people are going to want to play the new content.


It's a progression and the 'dumb'ed down' version we're referring to is the same new content minus some health and possibly a mechanic here or there. The only difference is that in WoW this content is gated differently. People are interested in running these types of raids because:

1) It introduces you to the content
and
2) The rewards for running these raids gear you up for normal content

It's not much different than what they have planned with requiring ilvl in coming content. I have no doubt that they'll expect you to run and gear from certain instances or by using currency to gain gear(and experience) required to satisfy whatever the ilvl conditions are.

Seriha wrote:
But on the working hard thing, most often it'll be the healers that wind up genuinely taxed. It's why this role is often in demand because the pressure isn't something everyone can cope with and certainly don't enjoy when seeking their entertainment. I did my time in FFXI as the sub-optimal healer on RDM in Dynamis parties and all that jazz. It just wasn't fun and part of why I clamored so hard for RDM melee buffs so the job could actually break away from that fate.


By 'earning' the gear I meant putting in the time. I'll be the first and probably one of the most vocal about how trivial most of FFXIV's encounters are, but it's still an MMO and it still needs to have a mountain to climb. Run instance A a certain amount of times to accumulate a number of currency to purchase gear or even unlock harder content. Things like this need to be in the game for players to set goals to achieve and to make some sort of progress on those goals.

XI was a different beast in that you had crap RNG to battle. I ran some areas in dynamis 50+ times before receiving the specific piece of gear I was after. Now as it stood, I felt like my wheels were spinning. I know it may sound odd but if they had instead made some sort of currency(separate from ABC) that dropped from zone bosses and they required you to trade 50 of these to a goblin for the gear, I would have felt much better about it. Yes, it still sucks to run a dyna zone 50 times for a piece of gear, but at least you leave your run knowing that you're that much closer to a goal. The same applies to raid rewards.

SE just needs to add tiered incentive for people to run the content. Complete 5 runs for a tome bonus. Complete 10 runs for a piece of rare crafting material. Complete 20 runs for a guaranteed piece of gear. Complete 40 runs to unlock hardmode ect. ect. You've got a reason for casual players to participate, a reason for crafters to participate(or incentive for players to reach out to crafters at least) and a goal for hardcore players to keep coming back to unlock harder content. It's clear they're trying to move out of the sandbox and into the themepark. It works out better when there are attractions that appeal to more than just a small group of the playerbase. It's not easy, but it's not impossible either.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#47 Oct 05 2013 at 5:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Not long ago, forbidden-melded gryphonskin gear was actually better than the best you could obtain via raiding.
I think it's reasonable to have the best gear be the rare/ex result of your own skill (raiding), not the product of
the gil you bought at www.chinesegil.com.

And it's mentalities like this that basically stagnate the evolution of progression schemes within MMOs. Why does equipment crafting inevitably become useless to people in so many of these games? Because people foolishly demand dungeon drops be better. Why? So people will want to run dungeons. What if you don't like dungeons? "@#%^ off and enjoy being gimp." I don't even agree with the sentiment another expressed the dungeon-quality crafts should require dungeon drops, direct or token-based, because they're rather unlikely to hit the market at a fair cost. Forget about that RMT bogeyman for a minute and understand that raiding isn't for everyone. People will still want their characters to grow, though, and ideally by ways other than farming thousands of shards just to get enough gil to buy something second-rate before considering best case materia scenarios that'll add even more expense and uncertainty. Enjoy the dungeons for the challenge, not the ability to lord over people who don't have the same gear. Every time I see someone advocating this kind of gap, ultimately I just see someone petty over the possibility someone they'll never interact with might not work as hard as they did for some pixels. Work is still work, be it solo or in an alliance. The only benefit grouped content should offer is quicker access given the expected difficulty.

Well, I don't agree. If you can buy the best gear in game from a crafter, for whatever reason,
it will enable lame asses to simply buy their way to the top. I'm not o.k. with that. Call it fairness,
call it envy, call it what you want. I would be o.k. with crafted gear that is rare/ex so the crafter
gets something for his (mindless buttonpressing I wanted to say, but let's call it) dedication.

You cannot expect to obtain the "best" gear simply by pressing the same buttons over and over.
There's no "challenge" in crafting except the amount of time you are willing to invest; and games
have (luckily) progressed beyond the stage where trading copious amounts of lifetime = success.

If you want the best fighting gear, fight for it. It's actually that simple. And if you don't want to
overcome the challenges of a coordinated high-end raid: settle for the second best. Because
chances are you'll never need that uber-gear anyway.
#48 Oct 05 2013 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seriha wrote:
And it's mentalities like this that basically stagnate the evolution of progression schemes within MMOs. Why does equipment crafting inevitably become useless to people in so many of these games? Because people foolishly demand dungeon drops be better. Why? So people will want to run dungeons. What if you don't like dungeons?


Why would you even care about gear for raids if you're not... you know, raiding? If you don't care about dungeons then what you wear doesn't really matter and shouldn't be a concern.

I think his point is that if you don't earn the gear then you haven't really proven that you have the necessary skill to put it to use, even if you could craft it. If you make it available to anyone, it kinda defeats the purpose of raiding.

The general idea of raiding is that each subsequent raid becomes increasingly more difficult and the rewards become better as you progress. That's what progression is about and that's why it's the more popular and most common model for running dungeon content. Sure it's not for everyone, but it works the way it does because that's how people(the majority anyway) who do enjoy it, want it to work.

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#49 Oct 05 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Well, I don't agree. If you can buy the best gear in game from a crafter, for whatever reason,
it will enable lame asses to simply buy their way to the top. I'm not o.k. with that. Call it fairness,
call it envy, call it what you want. I would be o.k. with crafted gear that is rare/ex so the crafter
gets something for his (mindless buttonpressing I wanted to say, but let's call it) dedication.


First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing. Please don't feel special because your mindless button pressing involves virtually hitting stuff, where as a crafters involves virtually crafting stuff. Second, there are many instances where crafted gear can compete with certain tiers of end-game gear. The idea is to allow people the option on how they play. A person rocking crafted gear will still need to mindlessly press buttons and kill things for virtual currency to buy the virtual gear, so that's just another form of grind. If they grind crafting, there's another form of grind. Dungeons, farming, crafting, all three just mindless grinds to reach an end goal.

Rinsui wrote:
You cannot expect to obtain the "best" gear simply by pressing the same buttons over and over.
There's no "challenge" in crafting except the amount of time you are willing to invest; and games
have (luckily) progressed beyond the stage where trading copious amounts of lifetime = success.


Actually, to make an HQ item in FFXIV, it's harder than you think. First, you need to gather your resources. That can mean either, again, farming/selling items to make gil to buy them, or going out and acquiring the items in-world, off of enemies or rare nodes that require you to be there at a certain time. Then you need to HQ those into materials, which can be tricky and takes some work to make happen. Then you have to roll the dice and risk NQing the item itself, blowing all that work.

It's not the FFXI craft and hope, it takes skill and prep. For example, I have several crafts leveled to 20 specifically because I get crossclass skills like Waste Not, Careful Synthesis, Rumination and Tricks of the Trade. It took a good deal of time to get those, and it takes some knowledge to calculatedly use them. Right now I'm working on CUL to get its level 15 ability. I'm sure if there are more cross skills that are equally as useful, my crafts will all have to level up accordingly.

In essence, I'm grinding my own "dungeon". In some ways, I'm more dedicated than some raider that might get lucky, fall in with a good group and get handed gear for being a good little monkey with a fixed playtime schedule. Just because I don't live my life around this game, that I don't literally book off hours of my week to go repeatedly bash my forehead into my keyboard running the same rote dungeon time after time until I am granted the amount of items that will allow me to get the next time to go off and repeat the whole ******** again in the next event.

Rinsui wrote:
If you want the best fighting gear, fight for it. It's actually that simple. And if you don't want to
overcome the challenges of a coordinated high-end raid: settle for the second best. Because
chances are you'll never need that uber-gear anyway.


Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.
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#50 Oct 05 2013 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

Unless you go in blind with a group that doesn't have weapons/gear that were unobtainable prior to beating it.

Also, crafted gear with melds is better than dungeon gear with the same ilvl. That's how it works and that's how it's going to continue to be, for the most part.

Edited, Oct 5th 2013 10:15am by Deadgye
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#51 Oct 05 2013 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear. This would add a tremendous incentive for people to level their crafting jobs, because they'd then have two pathways to good endgame gear... WITHOUT pulling people away from dungeons, but while also adding use to crafting.
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