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A bit confused on endgame crafted gear...Follow

#52 Oct 05 2013 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
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Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

Unless you go in blind with a group that doesn't have weapons/gear that were unobtainable prior to beating it.


OK, granted. If you just try the fight blind, that first time can be a challenge.

Deadgye wrote:
Also, crafted gear with melds is better than dungeon gear with the same ilvl. That's how it works and that's how it's going to continue to be, for the most part.


And so long as that stays the norm, I'm perfectly OK with that. It takes time to soulbind gear, and judging from the fails I see running through the market sections, it's not guaranteed success for that.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#53 Oct 05 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.

Thayos wrote:
This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear. This would add a tremendous incentive for people to level their crafting jobs, because they'd then have two pathways to good endgame gear... WITHOUT pulling people away from dungeons, but while also adding use to crafting.


Crafting needs adjustments elsewhere. Adding the ability to craft more than just a few pieces of gear(and this should be done independently of running dungeons for materials) is just redundant. You're running dungeons to get gear in the first place. A material that is crafted into gear is essentially the same thing as gear.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Oct 05 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.


No encounter is truly "difficult" as you say. Every encounter boils down to following the same pattern of actions each time you meet with that encounter. Name any MMO, any one, that has a truly skill-based check. There isn't one. That's because, and I hate to break it to you, MMOs take little to no skill. It's push buttons in X order while standing in Y spot. That's it. That's what every fight boils down to. Skill-based games are extremely rare, and you will never see a major MMO go that route, simply because the longer you play, the more money they make. Skill-based games are taxing on your mental and physical capacities. Look at something like Super Meat Boy. How long could you play it, non-stop, at the highest levels? Repeating those highest levels always hitting A+ on the score? Sure, they do become rote after a while once you learn them, but that becomes true for anything in life. But, by and far, those games that require true skill are those that require both fast mental decisions and rapid dexterous movements.

Does FFXIV? **** no. Has any MMO? **** no. That level of tension would cause a meltdown if you were keeping yourself keyed up for a 90-minute raid. As I said, the first time, you will face adversity if you've not studied the fight or decided the strategy. After that, you just have to pay attention to the pattern.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 3:25pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#55 Oct 05 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Something I think that could help. Is if they add like a relic recipe. It could be rare drop from dungeon bosses that requires dropped mats from trash mobs. Then the items could be given to a crafter of that level to craft it and once the recipe it's used its gone and can't be used again unless you get the mats and recipe again. Have the success rate not be that high so it can rival the best end game gear and have the hq version be the best gear this way everyone wins
#56 Oct 05 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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xellosalpha wrote:
Ideally, they can put the super high end ingredient at the end of the raid, they get the ingredient and ask the crafter to made the item like how they did with vrtra and kirin back then. It would actually made crafter being needed. Then again we run into this issue.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-jc-pennys-effect



Ugh! Just goes to show that most consumers are brain dead and would rather be deceived than be told the truth. Some people make me wonder if they have anything going on in the brain pan. I actually like the idea they talk about in that video, that's what I imagine when I think great crafting in an MMO.

Why is it we can't have that? Have mats drop instead of gear?

I'm sure the masses will cue in and say something along the lines of, "Maybe I don't want to craft!" and that's fine but I believe that doing the same raids all day long for a chance at some gear is rather annoying. I like the idea of having sell-able mats drop from raids that can be used to make multiple items. This way those who enjoy doing raids have an insensitive for doing them and those that don't can simply buy the items they need. Why is this a bad thing? A person who would rather craft than raid getting the same opportunity for gear as the guy doing the raid and the guy doing the raid not having to pick up a craft because they know if they get the mats they can have it made. Everyone gets theirs in the end by different means.
#57 Oct 05 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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The issue with having sellable items from raiding is that you have gilsellers turn to grinding these items.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#58 Oct 05 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
The issue with having sellable items from raiding is that you have gilsellers turn to grinding these items.


Ok good point. Here's a better idea then.

Make the raid drop unsellable tokens of some sort, varying in quantity compared to difficulty and associated with that raid. Have NPC in major hub exchange said tokens for unsellable crafting materials with token prices varying again based on difficulty of raid. Adding bonuses to clear time and whether or not you killed everything on your path to the end wouldn't hurt. Also a boost in exp so we can actually use them for leveling wouldn't hurt either but keeping FATE grinding on equal ground in terms of exp. Make all raid drops meld-able.
Edit: Maybe make hard mode raids that drop HQ tokens that one can buy HQ versions of the mats.

Introduce a system where a Disciple of Hand can que for an instance just like any Disciple of War or Magic. Have the DoH and anybody needing something spawn in a small instanced room. Use a system similar to this for crafting: http://eorzeareborn.com/materia-consignment/
Have the DoH set the price before entering but also give them the option of doing it for free if they choose. Maybe give the DoH the ability to HQ said raid gear? Just putting that bit out there.

Now how about those DoH classes that want shiny battle gear compared to raid gear but without the raid? Introduce a separate system from leves where DoH classes can acquire same gear but instead of doing raids they turn in crafted items for same tokens that are dropped in raids (not gonna get into ratio).

Introducing these systems also gives people who decide to level both DoH and DoW/M a slight boost. Incentive to, if not level completely, at least dabble in both aspects of the game. Now this can fail or win depending on how well they balance it.

Here you have different paths leading to the same endgame shiny loot. Everybody wins?

Edit 2: Imagine free companies dedicated to DoH classes that have nothing but DoH and DoL exp boosts on all day. The moment this system would go into effect is the moment I make one. /dream

Edited, Oct 5th 2013 3:00pm by CupDeNoodles
#59 Oct 05 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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domice wrote:
Something I think that could help. Is if they add like a relic recipe. It could be rare drop from dungeon bosses that requires dropped mats from trash mobs. Then the items could be given to a crafter of that level to craft it and once the recipe it's used its gone and can't be used again unless you get the mats and recipe again. Have the success rate not be that high so it can rival the best end game gear and have the hq version be the best gear this way everyone wins

Hated this in Rift, and half the time the recipes were still sub-par. What it turned into is everyone just Need lotting on the recipes to sell even though you'd have someone in the group who could actually use it. The mark-up on the scrolls almost often took too long to make up buy actual sales of the product due to material cost and AH fees, too. I feel like I'd prefer a system where I had to manually HQ 10 of a certain item before it'd unlock a relic version, but even that's a bit RNG pandering, though obviously easier for those who work to level all crafts.

Meanwhile, people need to get away from this exclusive mat idea. It's letting the RMT win (Hint: Tireless manpower), for one, but you may as well stick a fork in the economy, too. Part of the economic issue of dungeon gear superiority is that ruins incentive to craft. This isn't magically fixed by dungeon craft drops from tomes, either, as it just builds resentment from those who dislike that type of grind. As a comparison, it'd be like telling someone to level BRD in FFXI to run Delve so later on they could Delve with their DRK. The people spewing that drivel don't seem to care that it'll also take time to level and gear the second job on top of acquiring its abilities. And just because knuckledragging basement dweller could do it in a day, it could take weeks for someone else. And by then Delve becomes harder to do by virtue of PUGs further escalating their standards on top of less people wanting to do it now that they got what they wanted out of it.

The whole "My Time Doing X Thing > Your Time Doing Y Thing No Matter How Much Y Thing You Do" dynamic used to shoot down desires of equal progression methods needs to go.
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#60 Oct 05 2013 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.


No encounter is truly "difficult" as you say.


What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

There are encounters in other MMOs where if someone fails to execute you may as well all join hands and sing kumbaya as you watch your attempt go down in flames. Your healer might be pushed out of range of a tank at a critical time, maybe they didn't move in time or maybe someone misses an interrupt. Any and all of those things (including a laundry list more) could go wrong and mean defeat. The execution isn't always exactly the same either(AoE in the exact same spot, timing and number of adds spawning and who they aggro, ect ect.).

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#61 Oct 06 2013 at 2:11 AM Rating: Default
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@Thayos
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This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear.

Yes. I am o.k. with that.

The main problems I have with crafted stuff that rivals top-level dungeon drops can be summed up in two sentences:
1.) It would allow people to buy their way to the top
2.) The only challenge with crafting is wasted time. And we should be beyond the stage in gaming history where wasted time = success.

@Pawkeshup
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First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.

P.S.: ZAM is experiencing serious server issues today, isn't it?

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:12am by Rinsui
#62 Oct 06 2013 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

[...]

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
Rinsui wrote:
@Pawkeshup
Quote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.


It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content? If it's on such a razor's edge, if it all hinges on crucial, amazing timing, why is it that, once a strategy has been found, that people run the content collecting gear? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it comes down to gear and mindless button pressing. That's it, that's all. I'm so sorry to tell you that your hours of training in your job amounts to repeating the same actions in the same order to win the same encounter each and every time.

Raiding isn't special. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Unless you are trying to beat content that has not yet been beaten, you aren't doing anything special. I get that you feel the need to make it seem that way, to place value on what it is you are doing, but realistically, everything you posted comes down to mindlessly repeating actions that bring success. The first time you run the encounter, you've done it. You've done it all. Every time after is just a repeat of the same content. You know the boss phases. You know the adds. Can things happen slightly differently? Sure, but slightly. It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.

And is repeatedly executing that hard? No. Sorry, but no. If it was, then people would not win the instance as often as they do. It would be a rarity for anyone to win, ever. That's just not the case. It simply isn't. It might be with Coils right now, but that's because strategy and gearing are still being sorted out. Once that's done, people will run the content day in and day out, racking up wins over and over. And not because they are so picture perfect that they make Jesus weep. It's because MMOs are designed to respond to proper strategy. Period. It's a puzzle. Find the solution, and win.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#63 Oct 06 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

[...]

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
Rinsui wrote:
@Pawkeshup
Quote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.


It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content? If it's on such a razor's edge, if it all hinges on crucial, amazing timing, why is it that, once a strategy has been found, that people run the content collecting gear? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it comes down to gear and mindless button pressing. That's it, that's all. I'm so sorry to tell you that your hours of training in your job amounts to repeating the same actions in the same order to win the same encounter each and every time.

Raiding isn't special. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Unless you are trying to beat content that has not yet been beaten, you aren't doing anything special. I get that you feel the need to make it seem that way, to place value on what it is you are doing, but realistically, everything you posted comes down to mindlessly repeating actions that bring success. The first time you run the encounter, you've done it. You've done it all. Every time after is just a repeat of the same content. You know the boss phases. You know the adds. Can things happen slightly differently? Sure, but slightly. It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.

And is repeatedly executing that hard? No. Sorry, but no. If it was, then people would not win the instance as often as they do. It would be a rarity for anyone to win, ever. That's just not the case. It simply isn't. It might be with Coils right now, but that's because strategy and gearing are still being sorted out. Once that's done, people will run the content day in and day out, racking up wins over and over. And not because they are so picture perfect that they make Jesus weep. It's because MMOs are designed to respond to proper strategy. Period. It's a puzzle. Find the solution, and win.


That's not true I remember in ffxi ehinjeir (sp) there was a strategy for every wing. But even if everyone knew the strategy more times then not people failed, heck even in this game lots of times boss end in wipes the first few times it's just that in ffxiv if you all die its no problem to start again and tweek a strategy used by others to fit your group best.

And on a side note yes repeating actions in life is hard. A surgeon can perform the same operation a thousand times difficulty doesn't change just how comfortable he is with it. And no he will not succeed every time he dose that surgery.

Also on another side not that same surgeon didn't come up with that surgery he is just following a guide that someone else before him came up with. Does that mean surgeons are not skilled? No because if something goes wrong a accident happens they have the knowledge to recover. Same with a mmo something happens miss a stun is the run over our will people be able to recover. It's the something in football and blown plays, basketball and missed free throws, and baseball and errors.
#64 Oct 06 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
And on a side note yes repeating actions in life is hard. A surgeon can perform the same operation a thousand times difficulty doesn't change just how comfortable he is with it. And no he will not succeed every time he dose that surgery.

Also on another side not that same surgeon didn't come up with that surgery he is just following a guide that someone else before him came up with. Does that mean surgeons are not skilled? No because if something goes wrong a accident happens they have the knowledge to recover. Same with a mmo something happens miss a stun is the run over our will people be able to recover. It's the something in football and blown plays, basketball and missed free throws, and baseball and errors.


Now you are taking something that takes actual skills versus pressing buttons in a given order. Earlier, I even said playing some games (Like Super Meat Boy) do require skill and manual dexterity. MMOs, by their nature, just do not. So you cannot trot out other disciplines or even other game genres and say "Look, my raiding takes just as much skill as all of that!" Doctors need to learn how to cut, cauterize, sew, and use a various amount of equipment, not just pick up a controller and press buttons. People who are amazing at fighting games cannot just repeat the same buttons over and over versus other live opponents, even though they are holding a controller and pressing buttons. Face facts, it doesn't take skill to do what you do in an MMO.

As for your example, that event had a random selection of monsters, so therefore it is much more difficult to have a set strategy for it, and poor luck can stick you with two hard families. So, realistically, a wipe is possible if the RNG is not on your side. However, most endgame raids don't feature that level of randomness. There are a few examples in FFXI that I know of, and most of those are criticized for their randomness being a factor at all.

I realize that I've obviously struck a nerve daring to have the opinion that no MMO takes true skill to play it, but the very fact that you can design bots to play the game, or that RMT can obtain the same items regular players can screams that I'm right. All you need is a strategy and the right order of commands. That's it.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#65 Oct 06 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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My thing is, I'd that you keep saying things like super meat boy require skill but it is literally the same thing as a mmo. Timing and button pressing implying different is the timing of when to press said button
#66 Oct 06 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't really follow the talk here, so I think I'll get to my doubt about gears.

In short, how do the 3 end-game gear sets compare with each other; Allagan sets (from BC), AF2 sets (from Myth tomes), and Green crafted gears (those that require materials purchased by Philo tomes).

Having a brief look, Allagan and AF2 seem similar and just a difference in 1 type of stat given by each. Does it mean they are in par with each other in regards to performance, and it's just a matter of preference of which particular stat type we want between those 2?
Also given the fact that BC is somewhat challenging early on, so for the casual ones they could just be patient and farm weekly Myth tomes to get AF2 - as they are in par with Allagan sets in performance.

How about the green crafted sets that require Philo tome materials? Is it any better in performance after being melded with full slot materia compared with Allagan and AF2? I notice a lot of people buying the Philo tome materials, so I'm just wondering if the sets are really worth the effort of gathering all the required materials, or perhaps it's just for fashion purpose.
#67 Oct 06 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
My thing is, I'd that you keep saying things like super meat boy require skill but it is literally the same thing as a mmo. Timing and button pressing implying different is the timing of when to press said button


I can tell you right now that you are incorrect there. It is much harder to play a game that requires physical co-ordination over just rotating what buttons you press and where you stand. Go ahead, and pick up that game. Record your hands playing the game. Now do the same with an MMO. The amount of manual dexterity required is greatly different. I play several kinds of games, and I find MMOs relaxing in comparison to most others. You don't need razor sharp reflexes or twitchy thumbs to deal with MMO combat. MMOs focus on finding the pattern you need to do, and not losing focus on that pattern. It's because, mechanically, they are less skill/reflex based and more puzzles/mathematical equations.

Take Dark Souls versus FFXIV for just a moment.

In Dark Souls, you can beat any boss you want at any time you want for the most part, with few exceptions. The issue is that you have to be ready to outplay the game, and work from a true disadvantage. You could literally go up against the final boss of the game using the starting weapon. You truly can. However, you have to be perfect, utterly flawless, in both strategy and execution. One slip and it truly does end in a loss. Gear and levels make it greatly easier to beat the bosses in Dark Souls, though. That allows you to win with less skill and bigger numbers, and in a shorter time.

In FFXIV, if you are 10 levels or more below something, there is a strong likelihood that you're ******* It's because numbers, not skill, determines your victory. You cannot beat FFXIV's final boss as a level 1, even if you would be able to access the fight. It doesn't matter how much skill you exert. Simply put, using your base weapon and your base skill, you will not even damage the boss. You can use every kiting trick, every potion, but you will lose, 100% of the time.

Therein lies the divide between the skill-based and strategy-based games.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#68 Oct 06 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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bWhite1 wrote:
I didn't really follow the talk here, so I think I'll get to my doubt about gears.

In short, how do the 3 end-game gear sets compare with each other; Allagan sets (from BC), AF2 sets (from Myth tomes), and Green crafted gears (those that require materials purchased by Philo tomes).

Having a brief look, Allagan and AF2 seem similar and just a difference in 1 type of stat given by each. Does it mean they are in par with each other in regards to performance, and it's just a matter of preference of which particular stat type we want between those 2?
Also given the fact that BC is somewhat challenging early on, so for the casual ones they could just be patient and farm weekly Myth tomes to get AF2 - as they are in par with Allagan sets in performance.

How about the green crafted sets that require Philo tome materials? Is it any better in performance after being melded with full slot materia compared with Allagan and AF2? I notice a lot of people buying the Philo tome materials, so I'm just wondering if the sets are really worth the effort of gathering all the required materials, or perhaps it's just for fashion purpose.


The way I see it now it's a mix of AF2 and Allagan, at least for Monk anyway but I can only assume it's the same for most. Each class has its preferred stats and mixing the two seems to get you the best outcome.
#69 Oct 06 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no divide its all just timing. I played demon and dark souls. There is no great coordination all pve games are just recognize patterns and press button. In video games the harder the game just means the less margin of error that is afforded to you. And I'm not saying that mmos are my fav type of games, but what I am saying is people dismiss what skill is and what it's not due to what you perceive is hard. Typing is a skill that I'm sure most people on here think is trivial but to others it's very difficult. Heck even reading is a skill along with pattern recognition. Playing a mmo is no less a skill then walking and running.
#70 Oct 06 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
There is no divide its all just timing. I played demon and dark souls. There is no great coordination all pve games are just recognize patterns and press button. In video games the harder the game just means the less margin of error that is afforded to you. And I'm not saying that mmos are my fav type of games, but what I am saying is people dismiss what skill is and what it's not due to what you perceive is hard. Typing is a skill that I'm sure most people on here think is trivial but to others it's very difficult. Heck even reading is a skill along with pattern recognition. Playing a mmo is no less a skill then walking and running.


It isn't skillful. Can you read a wiki article, then have perfect jogging form? No, that's something that you have to learn, to co-ordinate and train. Can you read a wiki article, then beat a boss on an MMO? Yes, you can. You might get more efficient with time doing it, but the fact remains that you can actually win a fight solely by duplicating the same series of buttons as someone else. You don't have to apply any form of skill to it outside of how to hold a controller and how to press buttons. However, you can watch/read all you want about Dark Souls, you still need to reflexes and ability to execute.

And again, MMOs are not even close to doing anything that demands physical co-ordination and conditioning like running. I get it, you want to feel skillful by playing an MMO. It's just not true. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the true skills you apply in MMOs have nothing to do with the game, and are even from different disciplines. Communication, puzzle solving, research, mathematics... all of these are far more important than the actual play of an MMO.

Even typing is a skill. It requires accuracy, practice to increase speed, proper form to avoid injury. Reading is a skill that can be developed. It has nothing to do with perceived difficulty. All of your examples further the point that following a rote strategy that anyone, literally anyone, can follow and win, takes 0 skill. None, zip. You just need to match up with the gear and tactics provided, and you win! I cannot go read a wiki on typing, then turn around and type 200 wpm. I cannot go read a wiki on football, then become an NFL starter. I can go read a wiki, then immediately go win a fight in an MMO. Skilled tasks take time, ability, practice, and are subject to physical and mental conditioning. MMOs simply are not in that arena.

Edit:

The one thing that I will grant you is that if you do have sharp reflexes, a more adaptive mind, et cetera, then you will have an easier time playing MMOs, because those will transfer over into the game, but you cannot outskill an MMO.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 3:26pm by Pawkeshup
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#71 Oct 06 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Nevermind the skill debate, because it's already been beaten into glue...

If it wasn't difficult then people wouldn't fail it repeatedly to the tune of hundreds of times prior to World's First achievements being awarded. Following that, guilds still fail hundreds of times anyway. You're way over-simplifying it Pawkeshup. Not all aspects of an encounter happen the same way everytime. Your logic is so broken.

"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode". That's what you sound like here. Maybe you're just so much better than everyone else that every instance ever made actually is easy for you. It's completely possible Smiley: nod

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:17pm by FilthMcNasty
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#72 Oct 06 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode".


Do you understand the amount of stupidity contained in this one sentence? The sheer level of arrogance to even compare something like climbing Everest to playing an MMO?

This is where the raiding culture has led your brain? Seriously? Look, if you are resorting to this level of ridiculousness, then there's no hope in getting you to see any sort of reason. The sheer fact that you ignored me saying, initially, that developing that first strategy does take skill. I've said several times that testing and developing that does take skills. You have to watch the numbers, observe and test. Just like planning a chess gambit, it takes skill. Or discerning the solution to a puzzle. However, following that subsequent strategy takes none. You cannot argue that.
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#73 Oct 06 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup wrote:
However, following that subsequent strategy takes none. You cannot argue that.


There is a strategy for climbing the mountain face just like there is a strategy to defeat an encounter. Both require that you execute and both are adjusted either prior to the attempt and/or on the fly depending on conditions that are not in your control. There is no one path to conquering an instance or a mountain face that is the easiest path everytime. You make it out as though there is, but there is not.

The analogy wasn't to compare the difficulty of playing a videogame to climbing Everest. It was made to prove the point that something doesn't just become easy because it's been done before. It could have been compared to anything really, but since you used chess then lets roll with that...

You can't just follow a list of moves from a game of chess you won before and expect to win every game unless your opponent makes the exact same moves against it. That doesn't happen in chess and it doesn't happen in MMO encounters. Because they deal with AI, there are certain elements and events that happen at specific times or when known conditions are met, but there are also elements you don't expect or are not aware of how to deal with before they happen. In chess you expect your opponent to react in a certain way, but that isn't always the case either.

Don't make it out to be that one single strategy removes all aspects of difficulty from an encounter. It simply isn't true.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 8:22pm by FilthMcNasty
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#74 Oct 06 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode". That's what you sound like here. Maybe you're just so much better than everyone else that every instance ever made actually is easy for you. It's completely possible Smiley: nod

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:17pm by FilthMcNasty



http://www.alpineascents.com/everest.asp

It is easy-mode now. You can buy guided tours to the top.

The guy who did it first had it the hardest. Actually, the ones who failed to get the top first had it hardest, because a few of them died. And everyone learned from their mistakes.

Bringing us to today, where people can pay for other people to run them to the top for exorbitant fees.

Kinda sounds familiar.
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#75 Oct 06 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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@Pawke
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It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content?

We are good. And work as a team.

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It is much harder to play a game that requires physical co-ordination over just rotating what buttons you press and where you stand.

Try doing your job in raid for starters, then talk about not requiring physical coordination. Or quick reflexes. Or situational awareness. Because if you don`t need those you should thank your team for dragging a fifth wheel along all the time you`re online.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 2:57am by Rinsui
#76 Oct 06 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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or try pvp. i mean, when like, pvp is in this game. that's where the real challenge is; although i suspect, at least in the case of Frontlines, the real challenge will be overcoming the lag that will surely be destroying framerates the world over.
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#77 Oct 06 2013 at 11:44 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Can you read a wiki article, then have perfect jogging form? No, that's something that you have to learn, to co-ordinate and train. Can you read a wiki article, then beat a boss on an MMO?


So you go read a wiki article on a boss fight to learn the mechanics, then get a group together and coordinate and train on how to do it, and this isn't the same thing?

I'm sorry but this whole "ER MY GURD raiding is the eazy modez all u does is push buttons" argument is stupid. I heard it all the time in WoW from hardcore elitists PVP'ers. IMO all PvP is, is learning what abilities X class can do, learning to recognize those abilities, and learning what buttons I needed to push to stop them from doing it.

Sure there might (big emphasis on might) be just a little bit more randomness to it. But coming from experience, cause I've PvP'ed, (been there done that, got the T-shirt) once I learned how to kill a warrior (or whatever class) while playing my rogue, I could easily kill any warrior. And then PvP just turns into mindless farming of BG''s/Arena's while mindlessly repeating actions that bring success. Sound familiar? And, as far as I'm concerned, this holds for any game regardless of its difficulty level.

I'm sorry, but really all it is, is an elitist attitude to justify what someone is doing is harder, or requires more skill, then what someone else is doing. Cause in the end, I don't care what game your playing, your still just learning when to push buttons.

skill (skl)
n.
1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
2.
a. An art, trade, or technique, particularly one requiring use of the hands or body.
b. A developed talent or ability:

So learning a boss fight, becoming proficient at it through training and experience, and then developing a talent to do it over and over again isn't a skill just because I read a wiki article on it and other people can do it too?

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
I can go read a wiki, then immediately go win a fight in an MMO


I have a friend at work who plays video games. Hes really big into COD, loves the God of War series, and loves playing sports games like madden. If I understand what your saying, I can just give him a guide to Titan HM, a controller, a toon with the proper gear, and he will be able to just go in with a group of equal geared player who also have no prior experience except a wiki guide and one shot him? Didn't think so.

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Skilled tasks take time, ability, practice, and are subject to physical and mental conditioning. MMOs simply are not in that arena.


Is this not the definition of an MMO?

I invest how much time just to get to end game content, gear out, and learn my class? I spend hours mentally conditioning myself, or practicing, to hold a DPS rotation and pump out sustained DPS regardless of what is happening on screen. And that's just for a DD role, Playing a tank or healer just adds even more to the equation IMO.

Sure its all timing and pressing buttons, but with out experience, which is developed through training, which if I'm training, would mean that I'm learning a skill. Which leads me to believe that I am becoming skilled at my class/game. Which, to me, leads to the fact that playing an MMO requires skill.

It is what it is, and I'm doubtful that you will agree with me. But the simple fact alone that some people can do it, while others can't, and we have all ran into people who just can't coordinate themselves enough to raid, regardless of what kind of guides there are out there, just lends more to the fact that raiding requires some form of skill.
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#78 Oct 07 2013 at 1:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't understand the argument. You are saying that you can become an expert on any encounter just by reading it (and not by doing it)?

You know this is what we call theoretical strategy. What works nicely on paper: assuming everyone thinks the same way you do, plays the same way you do, and is as quick to react as you are.

Things are much different in the field. I think the most challenging part of raiding is not the content but working with 7 different minds. If your BRD has severe ADHD and is assigned to silence something every 20 seconds, it's going to be rough and you might wipe a lot. Does this mean it's challenging? Well, I don't know what you consider challenging. You may think, "Wow, I can easily do his job...but I don't have the tools to do it." then you may think this is not challenging content: you're just being held up by someone who is not performing their functions properly.

I know, as a BLM, I've sat there on fights where we've wiped and thought, "Geesh I could easily have prevented this had I been x job." but that's on a fight where my role was to just sit there and DPS. It becomes harder for others when they are put on the spot due to unique encounter mechanics. The success of one encounter may rely on the tanks one time, the healers another, the ranged DPS another, and the melee DPS yet another! And then, sometimes they throw the whole trunk at you and require everyone perform their job flawlessly or you fail.

Your turn usually ends up coming down the road anyways so it's better to just accept the fact that learning things, initially, can be challenging for everyone.

Generally speaking, if the content you're doing is not on 'farm' status, it's probably a little challenging for your group.

Ever notice how things go the next time you try a boss that you've downed the previous week? They go a lot smoother, yes? So your theoretical research and your application of the research in the field have synced up. The rest of your group now knows what to do without having to focus much. This is called practice, yes? Doing something repeatedly till you've learned it well enough.

'Difficult' is such a vague term. What I think is difficult (coughchemistrycough) may not be difficult for some but what I think is easy (physics), others may think is difficult.

I find this argument akin to the following:

A person teaches themselves how to read music because they want to play the piano and says, "Well, this is going to be easy: I already know how to type (on the computer)." What do you do? Do you try to convince them that typing and playing the piano are different things? I mean, you're pressing keys with both hands on each, right?

Well, if you play the piano, you know how different the two worlds are. Trying to impart this on the person who insists that playing the piano is as easy as typing is a waste of time: it's better to let them experience the frustration for themselves because personal experience leads us to discover neat things about our own opinions.

So next time this scenario happens, make sure to sit that person down in front of a piano, put the sheets for Chopin's Etude Op. 25 No. 11 in front of them, and screech, "PLAY! PLAY YOU FOOL!". They'll be like, "Oh, this is easy. 8 notes by itself, then the same notes but with an accompanied chord in the left hand, and then...what the **** is this witchcraft?!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx6-Z0nsWnw

Or, as the analogy relates to us, you could just tell people to try the content before they judge it to be too easy. :)

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 3:53am by HitomeOfBismarck
#79Rinsui, Posted: Oct 07 2013 at 1:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well. Seems like we all at least agree that crafting is not difficult.
#80 Oct 07 2013 at 2:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
'Difficult' is such a vague term. What I think is difficult (coughchemistrycough) may not be difficult for some but what I think is easy (physics), others may think is difficult.

Well. Seems like we all at least agree that crafting is not difficult.
As such, I see no reason why it should provide the best gear available.


Crafting is the most difficult part of this game for me. ; ; You have to sit in town...and press synthesize over and over. The agony!

I think their system right now is perfect:

AF2 covers people who have sh*tty RNG on boss drops
Allegan provides good gear for people who farm the content
HQ crafting gear is a step up from base darklight and enhances your performance in coil should you ever decide to do it

I could have waited for my Allegan earring to drop. Who knows when that will be, though? Made more sense to have an HQ earring crafted, boosting my performance a little than to rely on the RNG gods (who don't seem to like Lalafell sacrifices as much as the dynamis gods). This allowed me to free of myth. tome allocation to other pieces I needed instead of going for the earring eventually.

I really don't see why there is any fuss. Each gearing route has its purpose. Yes, you can wait till you have enough tomes for your AF2 (will take months) or have obtained your Allegan (probably will take even longer). Should you if you're progressing in coils? **** no. You go craft or get someone to craft that Vanya hat and robe in the mean time.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 4:44am by HitomeOfBismarck
#81 Oct 07 2013 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I don't understand the argument. You are saying that you can become an expert on any encounter just by reading it (and not by doing it)?

You know this is what we call theoretical strategy. What works nicely on paper: assuming everyone thinks the same way you do, plays the same way you do, and is as quick to react as you are.


The way Pawkeshup is describing it makes it sound like he thinks all encounters are exactly the same every time they're run. The group composition is always the same, it always takes x seconds to get the mob to whatever percentage needed for events to happen, AoE always lands in the same place, the mob always targets party members for focused attacks in a specific order, ect. I won't say it's never the case, but for anything people would try to attach the words 'skill' or 'difficulty' to, it isn't.

I could give numerous examples of times where something happened(or something that was supposed to didn't) and the normal strategy had to be abandoned and adapted. I can think of just as many or more encounters where things happen randomly and a strategy can't really be formed. I honestly can think of only one or two times where I was a part of a 'clean' attempt where everything happened exactly as it was supposed to.
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#82 Oct 07 2013 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I really don't see why there is any fuss.


My thoughts exactly, this thread seems to feature a lot of people asking for things that already exist.
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#83 Oct 07 2013 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, I've tried to say that time spent is time spent no matter how you actually spend that time. The problem, of course, arises in the perception of that time's worth relative to the RMT phantom menace. You then get some wise guys coming in basically saying that crafting isn't work,so it should reward sh*t in a gross simplification of the process with XIV. That perception is then flipped on the raiders in attempt to define what work is, and of course tables are flipped. Ironically, I'm pretty sure Filth said he perceived MMO work as time spent, too. So this all seems to be weaving back into that "My Time > Your Time" sentiment I've expressed both directly and indirectly through far more words.

Honestly, I wonder if some of these guys have issue with people buying Titan HM clears or partaking of whatever other mercenary service is out there. In theory, that gil could've come from RMT. Obviously if they're buying it they're not earning the reward. But looking at it objectively, is something like that not actually providing a service? And isn't crafting by its very nature providing a service of its own? Personally, I tend to avoid merc services because their costs are aimed at paying multiple individuals for their time instead of just one, as is often the case with a crafter. I really hope I wouldn't have to reiterate that not everyone can play these games at the same manner, but at the same time, a fair effort should yield comparative rewards. What the individual does with that loot after is really none of our business, but the One True Path to MMO Progression is getting kind of old after a decade.

Let's have some hypothetical fun, though. 4 man dungeon takes 45 minutes at an expected average. This translates to 180 minutes of manpower for rewards relative to completion. For simplicity's sake, let's reference that to something like 40 mythic tomes. The cheapest tome armor is, what, 475 tomes? Applying a little division, we find one minute of manpower will yield .88 tomes in an expected environment. That 475 tome item now becomes 418 minutes of 4-man dungeon running.

Utilizing my philosophy that the more people you employ to the task, the faster an item should be to acquire, an 8-man run should then yield 475 tomes in 214 minutes of activity. Conversely, a soloist should be able to acquire the equivalent in 732 minutes of play. For the record, that's over 12 hours for a single item.

This is a fair perception of work being time and honoring the thought that activities that require more people should be more rewarding, no? Or are we just going to fall back into the trap of some being petty because someone could actually spend all that in their lonesome and later compete with the big boys who maybe deep down know they hadn't "worked" as hard as they like to claim?

But whatever, XIV's got numerous jobs/classes we should be expected to level, and with that their own gear needs. Right now the weekly currency cap puts a brick wall at gearing multiple jobs at a higher level. I personally disagree with this cap vehemently, but I also have a philosophy that no singular item you work toward should take more than 10 hours to get, especially in a class environment like this with 13 equipment slots to cover. Peanuts for the hardcore player, some might think, who plays that amount in a single day, if not more. But then I think of the guys who may be lucky to play 10 hours a week. They really aren't gearing sh*t well anytime soon, which just feeds into the whole problem MMOs face of people "falling behind" when the gear metric focuses too hard on raiding the problems of manpower requirements. Where's the ambition in thinking, "Yay, I'm gonna work hard and be third-rate!" Because that's the message I see some expressing and ultimately defending. Motivation has no singular source. Neither should gear.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 8:30am by Seriha
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#84 Oct 07 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't really bother me like it would for some if you allow crafters to create gear that is as good(normal mats) or better(rare mob mat drops) than you could get running raids. The reason why I brought it up is that I think it will have an adverse effect on how I feel progression should work.

If you limit the better raiding gear to instance drops, progression looks like this:

Level to cap > Run normal raids > Obtain gear > Increase item level > Run harder raids > Further increase item lvl > Run top tier raids

However, if you allow crafters to create equivalent gear, progression changes to this:

Level to cap > Level craft > Craft best gear available > Skip normal and intermediate level content and go directly to top tier raids


I'm not gonna call people lazy or anything. What they choose to do with their time is up to them, which is why it wouldn't bother me either way. I would just like to point out that generally, people take the path of least resistance. If it's 'easier'(read: faster or less tedious) to just craft the gear then people will completely skip much of the content unless they are forced to run it. Even if they restricted raids to those who defeated prior raids, they'd only run them once for clears before moving on.

I just see this leading to mediocre content. As a developer, I wouldn't focus a lot of time trying to make challenging and engaging raid content if I knew people were only looking to clear it once. It's like the thread about the airship cutscene. I don't care that I was given a CS of myself alone on the airship because beyond what was required for the quest, I haven't set foot on it again. I did what was required to progress the story and moved on.

As people have said, you could make high tier crafted gear from rare material drops. Seems redundant to me though. Grind raids for the finished gear or grind them for materials to create the equivalent. What's the difference?
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#85 Oct 07 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just see this leading to mediocre content. As a developer, I wouldn't focus a lot of time trying to make challenging and engaging raid content if I knew people were only looking to clear it once. It's like the thread about the airship cutscene. I don't care that I was given a CS of myself alone on the airship because beyond what was required for the quest, I haven't set foot on it again. I did what was required to progress the story and moved on.

On the other hand, you get content that a like sub-20% of your demographic will experience. Some devs nerf it later, much to ******** of purists, but not even that might not be enough because the time nerfs happen, people who just want to "see it" have to somehow tempt those who already have with drops they likely don't need anymore.

Quote:
As people have said, you could make high tier crafted gear from rare material drops. Seems redundant to me though. Grind raids for the finished gear or grind them for materials to create the equivalent. What's the difference?

And why does the material have to come from raids? I have a post a bit back pointing out options. I wouldn't call them the only possible options, either, but a start. Frankly, I could be daft and propose raids drop no gear at all, ultimately leaving us to doing endgame content in our AF. Fundamentally, the spirit of this content should be challenge, right? But it seems pretty evident to me that challenge isn't enough of an incentive for people, so enter the carrot. Might people choose the easier path (AK speed runs serve as an example, even)? Sure. I'd honestly be quite pleased with not having to put up with certain unpleasant personalities knowing I wouldn't have to "play nice" when in their presence, but because they're someone else's friend, simply bowing out obviously isn't conducive to personal progress (and doubly so if you've sat in a queue for an hour+). Not all players will find that perfect guild (one reason I believe server transfers should be permanently free, personally). Not everyone wants to log in to drama or cope with slurs, discrimination, and all the ugly punishment-less internet anonymity ****.

I've always tried to say that even if you're playing solo in an MMO, you're truly not alone. The presence of others can set into motion countless chain reactions and butterfly effects that can affect us both directly and not. Low on HP and a healer passes by? If they're having a good day, they'll hopefully patch you up. People been treating 'em like dirt? You might be eating it soon as they just keep running. One way or the other, old content is likely to feel like a grind. I just find it a bit too convenient to not even bother, though, under the assumption it'd only be something people would want to do once and GTFO. That isn't quite the casual element I'm shooting at, but rather that thee should always be something available to better yourself without the tether of others. If that's not there, you risk losing people to disinterest, boredom, frustration, or some combo of those.
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#86 Oct 07 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Quite obviously, I've stuck a nerve with all of you who consider the MMO genre a skill-based thing. ****, there was a time I'd have agreed with you. It has just been my experience that it isn't the case. Yes, I've taken a rote strategy, filled in the roles, told it to people that, like myself, haven't done the encounter, and won. Maybe I am just a magnificent, perfect leader, or surround myself with this wellspring of ultimately talented individuals, gods of the MMO universe...

I'd be more inclined to say that it's because once a working strategy is hammered out, so long as you follow it, you win.

Now, I won't try to further refute your opinions. I could go, line by line, and pick apart your arguments. I could say how mountain climbing and learning to play piano take great amounts of skill, yet that will fall on deaf ears. It's obviously important to all of you arguing that skill is required that you need it to be true to enjoy the game. By all means, hold to that opinion. I disagree vehemently with it, have dis-proven it in my own experience, and won't be convinced otherwise.
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#87 Oct 07 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, you cant argue from ignorance.
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#88 Oct 07 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It doesn't really bother me like it would for some if you allow crafters to create gear that is as good(normal mats) or better(rare mob mat drops) than you could get running raids. The reason why I brought it up is that I think it will have an adverse effect on how I feel progression should work.

If you limit the better raiding gear to instance drops, progression looks like this:

Level to cap > Run normal raids > Obtain gear > Increase item level > Run harder raids > Further increase item lvl > Run top tier raids

However, if you allow crafters to create equivalent gear, progression changes to this:

Level to cap > Level craft > Craft best gear available > Skip normal and intermediate level content and go directly to top tier raids


I'm not gonna call people lazy or anything. What they choose to do with their time is up to them, which is why it wouldn't bother me either way. I would just like to point out that generally, people take the path of least resistance. If it's 'easier'(read: faster or less tedious) to just craft the gear then people will completely skip much of the content unless they are forced to run it. Even if they restricted raids to those who defeated prior raids, they'd only run them once for clears before moving on.

I just see this leading to mediocre content. As a developer, I wouldn't focus a lot of time trying to make challenging and engaging raid content if I knew people were only looking to clear it once. It's like the thread about the airship cutscene. I don't care that I was given a CS of myself alone on the airship because beyond what was required for the quest, I haven't set foot on it again. I did what was required to progress the story and moved on.

As people have said, you could make high tier crafted gear from rare material drops. Seems redundant to me though. Grind raids for the finished gear or grind them for materials to create the equivalent. What's the difference?


Well, then I must ask, why even have a crafting and or more specifically materia system in place then? Why not have everything drop from monsters in its complete form? While crafting may not require skill, for the most part it does require time. I just want it to be relevant because make no mistake right now it isn't. They put all that time and effort in for naught if every good piece of gear is dropped from raids. Sure, you can walk into The Binding Coil of Bahamut with a full set of crafted gear and be fine because it is equal to darklight but what would be the point when you can just obtain darklight at a much faster rate?

Let me reiterate, crafting as it is now is irrelevant when it comes to gear. This makes people like me who put a lot of effort into it feel as though their time is wasted. I have posted an idea that when balanced correctly can let all types of people obtain endgame gear for an equal amount of effort (read: time put in). For anyone who says that their time is worth more than someone else's because they believe their way requires more skill than the other person is simply asinine because one not need engage in the activity. Why shouldn't there be several paths to the same goal? Why the blazes even have something irrelevant in the game?

Please, if crafting is to be irrelevant let it be known outright and quit teasing me with it and telling me how awesome it is when it isn't.
#89 Oct 07 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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stopped reading thread when people started using phrase "been there, done that, t-shirt" etc
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#90 Oct 07 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
Please, if crafting is to be irrelevant let it be known outright and quit teasing me with it and telling me how awesome it is when it isn't.

As far as I understand it, right now you can make some gear and infuse it with materia, and make it work well enough to be comparable to the near-end game gear. I assume that raid gear will be a tier above that, eventually. And then, also eventually, they will make crafted gear to pass it when the next tier of raid gear rolls out. That'd be the best I think crafters can hope for, realistically.

Edit: And yes, I know it was said somewhere in the thread that HQ enfused gear does already bypass raid gear in spots, but I can assume that the Coil will likely have gear that goes above that.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 12:52pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#91 Oct 07 2013 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
Please, if crafting is to be irrelevant let it be known outright and quit teasing me with it and telling me how awesome it is when it isn't.

As far as I understand it, right now you can make some gear and infuse it with materia, and make it work well enough to be comparable to the near-end game gear. I assume that raid gear will be a tier above that, eventually. And then, also eventually, they will make crafted gear to pass it when the next tier of raid gear rolls out. That'd be the best I think crafters can hope for, realistically.

Edit: And yes, I know it was said somewhere in the thread that HQ enfused gear does already bypass raid gear in spots, but I can assume that the Coil will likely have gear that goes above that.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 12:52pm by Pawkeshup



I feel its working well, eather farm or craft your ilvl 70 gear and use that to get that ilvl 90 gear from the coil, and down the line i could see them makein like 3 star recipes to be on par with the ilvl 90 stuff.

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#92 Oct 07 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Einherjar isn't really an apples to apples example because the conditions in each wing did change every time you went in. The mobs were placed differently, the random NM could be different each time, and one critically badly timed disconnect could destroy the whole run (e.g. the guy with the lamp after the run was already reserved.)

Same thing with Nyzul Isle, and Salvage ,to some extent. The challenge on each of those was their unpredictability and a nice big F U from the random number generator on bad days. (2 floor jumps in Neo Nyzul Isle make baby Jesus cry.)
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#93 Oct 07 2013 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear. This would add a tremendous incentive for people to level their crafting jobs, because they'd then have two pathways to good endgame gear... WITHOUT pulling people away from dungeons, but while also adding use to crafting.


That's a cool idea. Can you get this submitted to SE? Sounds just right.
#94 Oct 07 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
Please, if crafting is to be irrelevant let it be known outright and quit teasing me with it and telling me how awesome it is when it isn't.

As far as I understand it, right now you can make some gear and infuse it with materia, and make it work well enough to be comparable to the near-end game gear. I assume that raid gear will be a tier above that, eventually. And then, also eventually, they will make crafted gear to pass it when the next tier of raid gear rolls out. That'd be the best I think crafters can hope for, realistically.

Edit: And yes, I know it was said somewhere in the thread that HQ enfused gear does already bypass raid gear in spots, but I can assume that the Coil will likely have gear that goes above that.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 12:52pm by Pawkeshup


So if this is to be the path then crafting is going to be a sort of, skip the lesser content and go straight to the current top end raid content? To use the current situation as an example, skipping the darklight grind and going straight to The Binding Coil of Bahamut? Again, I must ask, why even bother to either A: make a raid you can skip or B: make crafted gear when you can raid, with the end result having to raid anyway? Seems rather redundant wouldn't you say?

Right now time and effort put in is better utilized raiding and forgetting about crafting entirely. To me crafting right now is an artificial hurdle put in place to slow down people by requiring them to make use of high level crafters for things like relic weapon instead of it being its own relevant path to gear.
#95 Oct 07 2013 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
So if this is to be the path then crafting is going to be a sort of, skip the lesser content and go straight to the current top end raid content? To use the current situation as an example, skipping the darklight grind and going straight to The Binding Coil of Bahamut? Again, I must ask, why even bother to either A: make a raid you can skip or B: make crafted gear when you can raid, with the end result having to raid anyway? Seems rather redundant wouldn't you say?

Right now time and effort put in is better utilized raiding and forgetting about crafting entirely. To me crafting right now is an artificial hurdle put in place to slow down people by requiring them to make use of high level crafters for things like relic weapon instead of it being its own relevant path to gear.

Well, here's how I see it:

FFXI is experiencing a major issue where you are supposed to raid into a tree of gear. You get 99, then buy your pink/teal/perle gearm then you get your Empy +1 at least (preferred +2) armor set, then buy your Bayld gear, then you get your first tier of Skirmish, then some Delve, then more Skirmish, then end tier Delve. Now that is a @#%^ton of work, and the further down the rabbit hole you go, the worse the chain gets. Soon there will be 6 or 7 layers of raiding to reach endgame from having nothing. And while you can rely on established players powering people through content, it's not a guarantee.

FFXIV is trying something different. Basically, eventually raiding pre-crafted level will be meaningless unless you need it to unlock a clear. It does relegate it to abandoned status, but then you only have two options with old content: Update or make irrelevant. By using this system, however, it means that a fresh 50 can hit the AH and buy into endgame-capable gear, and start raiding at whatever content is current. This keeps the gear grind from becoming an endless tier slog upwards, begging for people to come do that ilvl80 dungeon when the entire server has moved to the ilvl100 dungeon, let's say. It allows for people to catch up, keep the player base together in their raiding, and allows people who don't raid often to buy in when they are capable of rejoining the rat race.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 1:38pm by Pawkeshup

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 1:40pm by Pawkeshup
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The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#96 Oct 07 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Quite obviously, I've stuck a nerve with all of you who consider the MMO genre a skill-based thing. ****, there was a time I'd have agreed with you. It has just been my experience that it isn't the case. Yes, I've taken a rote strategy, filled in the roles, told it to people that, like myself, haven't done the encounter, and won. Maybe I am just a magnificent, perfect leader, or surround myself with this wellspring of ultimately talented individuals, gods of the MMO universe...

I'd be more inclined to say that it's because once a working strategy is hammered out, so long as you follow it, you win.

Now, I won't try to further refute your opinions. I could go, line by line, and pick apart your arguments. I could say how mountain climbing and learning to play piano take great amounts of skill, yet that will fall on deaf ears. It's obviously important to all of you arguing that skill is required that you need it to be true to enjoy the game. By all means, hold to that opinion. I disagree vehemently with it, have dis-proven it in my own experience, and won't be convinced otherwise.


I won't patronize you (because your post is really begging for it) but then again it's a little arrogant to have this kind of attitude.

I play the piano. Playing it and learning it is no less difficult than me trying to work with 7 other people to down a 'difficult' (we will use that term loosely, ok?) boss encounter.

Let's say I'm learning a new piece. I sit down and start to practice it. If it's within my skill level to master the piece, theoretically I should be able to accomplish learning this piece in a respectable amount of time like 3 months. Indeed, I have found this to be the case.

What about pieces that are not within my skill level? I'm not going to be arrogant enough to tell you I could play any piece of music given enough time. I couldn't. It's so mind boggling difficult (we're not going to use this term loosely here) to play something like one of Listz's transcendental etudes that it isn't even funny to take seriously in an argument like this. I could practice for 100 years and NEVER learn the piece at all. It is out of my skill range.

Your assumption is that people have infinite capacity to learn anything given a relatively short amount of time. 3 months is a lot less than 100 years, right?

This is flat out wrong. There are some people in this game who will never be able to kill even Titan HM. I most likely will never be able to beat coils. We all have our limits: even you who thinks he knows an encounter just because he reads about it.

And what is wrong with this? Are we really this petty? Do I get frustrated and upset because I can't play a transcendental etude? No, I just accept my limitations like any adult can and move on. But here we have a scenario where Yoshi-P is now going to release a modified version of the transcendental etude that allows me to play it without going mad. Despite your feelings about nerfing dungeons, I think it is a good thing. You can try it out and if you don't succeed, you can try it again when things are easier. This way you still get to see the story, still get to do the fights, and still get the feeling that you've done something fun.

I used to be arrogant enough like you to assume I could do any encounter if I read up on it. In fact, both of us probably could. I've played the standard MMOs, spending around 6+ years on average in each. I've seen it all and done it all. So why is it that I am having trouble with coil then? It's not a particularly hard dungeon: just some gear checks and tank/healing checks right?

No, not at all. The difficulty comes from getting 7 other people to work together so well that they never make one mistake: ever. You let high voltage go off on ADS? You may die. You get hit by piercing laser? You'll probably die. You decide to get cleaved by ADS? You'll put some stress on the healers who need to focus ont he tanks and if they die, you die. Someone isn't paying attention to how long rot has been on them? Someone passed it to the wrong person causing people to get immunity to the debuff for 30+ seconds? Your entire raid dies. Are you sitting in a gravity field while piercing laser goes off? You'll probably sustain a lot of damage, causing stress on the healers, and will end up dead. How about if your off tank doesn't provoke ADS off of the main tank and the main tank ends up with 5 stacks instead of 4? A tank might die, another will put substantial pressure on the healer. Did your DPS just pull aggro off of the tank during a tank swap? Ever been smacked by ADS as a clothie? What if your melee were the ones on stun duty and now find themselves unable to stun because ADS just bolted for the ranged? Dead, dead, and dead.

That is the challenging part of raiding, Pawkeshup, that you are failing to take into account. Not the actual encounter mechanics but getting people to do their job. And when you have really steep road blocks that require everyone to perform their job flawlessly or you die, then things get 'difficult'.

My advice would be go try turn 2. If you clear it in one attempt or even 10, I'd be impressed and would gladly yield this debate to you.

CupDeNoodles wrote:
Right now time and effort put in is better utilized raiding and forgetting about crafting entirely. To me crafting right now is an artificial hurdle put in place to slow down people by requiring them to make use of high level crafters for things like relic weapon instead of it being its own relevant path to gear.


Completely incorrect. Go take a look at the people in progressing guilds. Do you know what they're wearing? Crafted gear with melded materia in it. It is the best possible option until they obtain their AF2 and allagan gear. As I've stated before, this will take a very long time. So now I ask you: why would you purposefully gimp yourself and not get the crafted gear that will most likely be with you for 3+ months (or until we get a patch that nerfs the content)?

Do you not want every advantage you have upon entering a raid like coil? There are gear checks in there where darklight might not always be the best solution. No one has full AF2 yet and, unless you're really lucky, full allagan isn't feasible either. And here's the rub: the higher the discrepancy between your group's average skill level, the more crafted gear will help you in the end.

Just like on Titan. No, full darklight and Garuda's weapon is definitely not necessary for this fight. Certain payers have done it in AK gear and scattered DL gear here and there with Ifrit's weapon. But not everyone is going to be able to do that. So, you get gear to allow you to make more mistakes which will hopefully be enough to net you a win in the end.

If you think crafting right now is nonviable, there are some bigger issues to deal with. Next you will ask, "OK, what about crafting's state down the road?" Well, there are two possibilities: it either keeps up with raiding gear and becomes useful when raiding gear begins to have materia slots in it or it dies off and the crafting system goes poof.

Which do you think is more realistic outcome?

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 2:34pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#97 Oct 07 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't feel like continuing on a losing cause to convince you of the difference between actual skilled actions and the actions required for an MMO, what I will clarify is this:

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I play the piano. Playing it and learning it is no less difficult than me trying to work with 7 other people to down a 'difficult' (we will use that term loosely, ok?) boss encounter.

Let's say I'm learning a new piece. I sit down and start to practice it. If it's within my skill level to master the piece, theoretically I should be able to accomplish learning this piece in a respectable amount of time like 3 months. Indeed, I have found this to be the case.

What about pieces that are not within my skill level? I'm not going to be arrogant enough to tell you I could play any piece of music given enough time. I couldn't. It's so mind boggling difficult (we're not going to use this term loosely here) to play something like one of Listz's transcendental etudes that it isn't even funny to take seriously in an argument like this. I could practice for 100 years and NEVER learn the piece at all. It is out of my skill range.

Your assumption is that people have infinite capacity to learn anything given a relatively short amount of time. 3 months is a lot less than 100 years, right?

This is flat out wrong. There are some people in this game who will never be able to kill even Titan HM. I most likely will never be able to beat coils. We all have our limits: even you who thinks he knows an encounter just because he reads about it.


That was an utterly ridiculous read at the end. It's a video game. Of course anyone can beat Titan HM. You are debasing your own skills at the piano to even compare the two. It takes true talent and skill, not to mention months of effort to learn to play any instrument. To compare the two lessens that fact. I realize you don't agree, but please, don't fool yourself. Beating encounters in a video game =/= being accomplished in a real life proficiency like the piano, being a surgeon, or mountain climbing, or virtually any of the terrible, terrible comparisons made in this thread.

And when I reach the coils, I'll be happy to even record success or failure for you.
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#98 Oct 07 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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You're playing with semantics and using fallacies at this point. You are purposefully devaluing a person's skill when it comes to video games because you perceive it as something that is not a serious profession or endeavor. Can we really speak this way when there are competitive tournaments held all over the world over these 'lowly' video games?

Ever watch one of those tournaments? They always amuse me. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owmol4LXAJc

I have no idea what's going on but a lot of people seem to be really involved in something as basic as Street Fighter. It looks like there is prestige and even rewards for performing well in these events. People who are 'less' skilled than others in these events fall out of the bracket and do not acquire said prestige and victory loot.

How is this different from any other hobby? Ever watch a Chopin competition? It's amazing. So many talented pianists but only one person gets first prize and has their own concert in the end. They've spent years of their life refining their 'hobby' to play at the professional level just like you and I have spent years of our lives perfecting our hobby to be able to play at the professional level if we so choose.

In fact, not only are you devaluing other individuals' skills when it comes to video games but also your own even after professing how much you've spent playing them.

I think it's rather silly to say that one hobby is of greater value than another just because your opinion is that one hobby does not benefit mankind, cure diseases, and, an event greater miracle, cure stupidity in congress. We spend time here doing things we enjoy and some of us seek to be the very best at what we do. If a human chooses a hobby like video games and seeks to be the best at it, why cast it aside like it is a worthless waste of time?

Don't say my posts are utterly ridiculous reads. Yours have been extremely silly as of late despite your normal level-headed nature and posting habits. I still will take the time to address what you've written so show me at least the same amount of respect in return.

I wish you luck in your coil adventures. I've haven't experienced that level of frustration since FFXI, to be honest. And you know what? It is/was fun!

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 3:11pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#99 Oct 07 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
You're playing with semantics and using fallacies at this point. You are purposefully devaluing a person's skill when it comes to video games because you perceive it as something that is not a serious profession or endeavor. Can we really speak this way when there are competitive tournaments held all over the world over these 'lowly' video games?

Ever watch one of those tournaments? They always amuse me. Like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owmol4LXAJc


I've said, multiple times, MMOs do not require skill to play them. I've also used, multiple times, other gaming genres as requiring skill. It's partly why I'm sick of trying to get through to people here. You're all so defensive of your MMO skills that you immediately dismiss any other comments I've made outside of that one.

So far, in this thread I've said:
- It takes skill/ability to clear the first time to build a strategy
- It takes skill/ability to play certain games
- It takes no skill to clear sections of MMOs by simply executing a pre-done strategy

Yet, all you hear is:

OMG YOU HAVE NO SKILLS BECAUSE YOU PLAY MMOS!!!

I've even said that if you have good reflexes or having good improvisational skills are good at improving, those will make you better at MMOs, as they would in any other game, yet all of that is lost in the above summary dismissal of anything else I've said.

I've taken a group of skilless hacks, people who, on their own, couldn't virtually wipe their *** if you glued the paper to their hand, stuck it in the crack and told them to pull, taken them up against an end-game mob with a strategy, and won. Either that makes me @#%^ing General Patton of cyberspace (unlikely), or it means so long as you dot the I's, cross the T's, and use someone else's work, you will win (highly likely). The reason is simple: MMOs are intended to be this way. They aren't going to be a hardcore skill game, not in the sense of execution. Their hardcore element is the research, the deep diving of the database, the configuring and testing of gear and party setups. It's the dissection of the game into tiny, manageable, teachable parts. It's the creation of tools to read, analyze, and present data. There's a reason you can multibox these games, and it isn't because they are manually complex.

Let's hit your example above. Could a fighting game competitor reasonably fight using 30 different characters at the same time, even if all 30 of these were only fighting one enemy? **** no. Not only would the controls not allow for it, to focus on key entry at that level would be utterly insane. Your brain would just melt down, seeing only gibberish. It just would not work. And yet, MMOs have multi-boxers galore. I remember one all Warlock guild in WoW that was just one guy behind a rack of PCs. ****, there's even a website now discussing multiboxing. Does this scream skillcheck to you?

Like I said, I was once in the other camp, seeing MMOs as requiring skill. And at the leading edge, I can still see the trailblazers and those epic soloers who definitely have it. However, to actually play an MMO? No, you don't need all that.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 7:28am by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#100 Oct 07 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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No, what I hear is:

Quote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing. Please don't feel special because your mindless button pressing involves virtually hitting stuff

Quote:
In essence, I'm grinding my own "dungeon". In some ways, I'm more dedicated than some raider that might get lucky, fall in with a good group and get handed gear for being a good little monkey with a fixed playtime schedule. Just because I don't live my life around this game, that I don't literally book off hours of my week to go repeatedly bash my forehead into my keyboard running the same rote dungeon time after time until I am granted the amount of items that will allow me to get the next time to go off and repeat the whole bullsh*t again in the next event.

Quote:
Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

Quote:
No encounter is truly "difficult" as you say. Every encounter boils down to following the same pattern of actions each time you meet with that encounter.

Quote:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it comes down to gear and mindless button pressing. That's it, that's all. I'm so sorry to tell you that your hours of training in your job amounts to repeating the same actions in the same order to win the same encounter each and every time.

Quote:
Raiding isn't special. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Unless you are trying to beat content that has not yet been beaten, you aren't doing anything special.

Quote:
It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.

Quote:
It might be with Coils right now, but that's because strategy and gearing are still being sorted out. Once that's done, people will run the content day in and day out, racking up wins over and over.

Quote:
more ******** goes here


It's annoying having to pick through your posts just to remind you of what you've written.

On the other hand, I see this:

Quote:
Skill-based games are extremely rare


Name for me one of these elusive skill-based games, please. Super Meat Boy is definitely not a skill-based game: sorry to break it to you. It is what you perceive as 'challenging'. It's like me telling you Kaiser Mario or Cave Story's **** level is challenging. It isn't, really. Just rote memorization and pressing buttons in the correct sequence. You just don't seem to understand the concept of challenge relative to someone else's perception of challenge.

Which is my point: there is challenge any way you try to approach a multiplayer game. You say it's as simple as reading the strategy and going to do the dungeon. You are not playing it solo. I tell you that the challenge is not from the actual content but from getting 7 other people (in FFXIV's case for now) to work together and think the same way. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, what experience do you have in 14 to know if this is truly, as you described, skillless, mindless button pressing or a skill-based game as you described? Did you read this on Wikipedia too?

Quote:
It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.


So very accurate! He does not change a bit. What changes is your party composition. Humans are much more unpredictable than a scripted boss. Trying to tell me you can go in with any group and defeat Titan HM in one shot just from Wikipedia knowledge is cute. I implore you: queue for DF Titan and let me know how that goes. I'll give you a hint: the biggest problem there isn't actually anything Titan does.


You think everyone is apparently on the same frequency as you which, coincidentally, this thread just demonstrates how off the mark you are in that regard.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 7:12pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#101 Oct 07 2013 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
So if this is to be the path then crafting is going to be a sort of, skip the lesser content and go straight to the current top end raid content? To use the current situation as an example, skipping the darklight grind and going straight to The Binding Coil of Bahamut? Again, I must ask, why even bother to either A: make a raid you can skip or B: make crafted gear when you can raid, with the end result having to raid anyway? Seems rather redundant wouldn't you say?


Yeah, actually I did say it was redundant. You just quoted it...

Quote:
Seems redundant to me though. Grind raids for the finished gear or grind them for materials to create the equivalent. What's the difference?


I think it's just that people who enjoy crafting are a little annoyed that SE feels they shouldn't be using it to make money. I honestly believe that SE doesn't want players to be able to make lots of money with this system.

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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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