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A bit confused on endgame crafted gear...Follow

#102 Oct 07 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think it's just that people who enjoy crafting are a little annoyed that SE feels they shouldn't be using it to make money. I honestly believe that SE doesn't want players to be able to make lots of money with this system.


Meh, gil is not even a secondary concern for me as far as crafting goes. Maybe third. First, I want it to be a self-reliant system, meaning that you rely on your gathering to get your items to craft. No NPC-only items. Only Mining/Fishing/Harvesting/Old fashion farming. Second, I want it relevant. I want it to be a meaningful skill to have. Then gil would come later, I guess. So long as I can build my own gear, and stay somewhat relevant in combat, I'd be content.
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#103 Oct 07 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:


I think it's just that people who enjoy crafting are a little annoyed that SE feels they shouldn't be using it to make money. I honestly believe that SE doesn't want players to be able to make lots of money with this system.




I feel the same way, i love crafting and makeing the best gear i can for my level, but then i try to sell the HQ materia melded gear and....no one buys it, since you can get all gear from npc and they made all the level 1-50 content beat able with regular gear, so why would anyone spend few more thousand gil for stats they dont need to beat stuff, i just feel alittle shafted im just glad the main reason i craft is because i just enjoy it alot. I wish there was hard mode stuff pre-level 50.
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#104 Oct 07 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
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I ran into a multiboxer once in WoW in a WSG, he was effective for all of about 2 mins, then we just focused his **** down and his team lost cause he was talking up 5 of there 10 slots and couldn't keep himself coordinated once we started coming at him from multiple directions.
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#105 Oct 07 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
I think it's just that people who enjoy crafting are a little annoyed that SE feels they shouldn't be using it to make money. I honestly believe that SE doesn't want players to be able to make lots of money with this system.


Meh, gil is not even a secondary concern for me as far as crafting goes. Maybe third. First, I want it to be a self-reliant system, meaning that you rely on your gathering to get your items to craft. No NPC-only items. Only Mining/Fishing/Harvesting/Old fashion farming. Second, I want it relevant. I want it to be a meaningful skill to have. Then gil would come later, I guess. So long as I can build my own gear, and stay somewhat relevant in combat, I'd be content.


That's always been my point though...

If people don't need to rely on someone else for anything then it's not good for the economy and does nothing to promote community. I've got tons of people on my friends list in WoW who I know solely because they either advertised their craft or answered my shout looking for a crafter. I honestly don't care all that much because I'm not interested in crafting, but I can see it being somewhat of a problem.
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#106 Oct 07 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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If people don't need to rely on someone else for anything then it's not good for the economy and does nothing to promote community.

Being able to level all crafts on a single character (or in the case of other games, doing it on alts) does similar, however, so I wonder the resistance is on this notion. Financially speaking, it's smart to cut out as many middle men as possible because less gil spent to produce a product, the better the potential profit. Mind you, some people fall into the trap of something being free just because they farmed it without considering the time is money sentiment. As such, sometimes it is more profitable to buy from others to maximize profits (and crystals strike me as a likely venue of this, much as I hate farming them). So, while certain gatherers may hurt a little, products should still be hitting the market to help the buyer. As well, if less expense has been put into production, that savings might even be passed (But yeah, greed...) so there's still some potential economic benefit.



Now, when I see people say, "Why do A and B when you could skip to C?!" the question is quite bluntly loaded and missing important facts. People do that **** already even in the raid environment (See: Merc services, getting carried, or just plain being a gimplet). Funnily enough, crafting can be designed to still include A and B to get to C, but that just seems to be commonly overlooked by the "they could just by it!" hysteria. There's also the unknown variable that if, with the implementation of C content, were there quests added that simply reward people with gear to B? I mean, we seriously see that from 1-50 as is. This technically hurts both raiders and crafters because the game says, "We understand you've put some time in. There's a certain measure of equipment expectation from here on, so we're giving this to you so you don't get overwhelmed." Why eliminate or severely hinder players from doing similar for one another?

Round and round this circle goes, it always just seems to come back to ego and being unhappy someone didn't jump through the same hoops they did. Or wouldn't have to at some unspecified point in the future.
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#107 Oct 07 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
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If people don't need to rely on someone else for anything then it's not good for the economy and does nothing to promote community.

Being able to level all crafts on a single character (or in the case of other games, doing it on alts) does similar, however, so I wonder the resistance is on this notion. Financially speaking, it's smart to cut out as many middle men as possible because less gil spent to produce a product, the better the potential profit. Mind you, some people fall into the trap of something being free just because they farmed it without considering the time is money sentiment.


My question would then be, where is the potential profit? Move it to a real world situation.

If everyone went to college and learned how to do everything(yes I know this sounds ridiculous Pawk, but in XIV this is exactly what you are capable of), who would make any money if they graduated and started a business? Your potential customers are all already aware of how to provide any service they'd need.

If crafting would still require you to clear raids to get materials for the gear you're crafting, at least as it relates to crafting gear for raiding, is pointless anyway. What purpose does it serve to run raids for mats to craft gear when you can just run raids for the equivalent drops?

Seriha wrote:
Round and round this circle goes, it always just seems to come back to ego and being unhappy someone didn't jump through the same hoops they did. Or wouldn't have to at some unspecified point in the future.

I honestly don't care how people do it, but I think it's a valid beef. Being concerned that incentive to run raids for progression is all but ignored doesn't have anything to do with people's ego. I guess we'll find out what kind of impact it has.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 9:34pm by FilthMcNasty
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#108 Oct 08 2013 at 2:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly don't care how people do it, but I think it's a valid beef. Being concerned that incentive to run raids for progression is all but ignored doesn't have anything to do with people's ego. I guess we'll find out what kind of impact it has.

It is ego when it basically comes to them telling others they'll never interact with how to play because they deem a way they'd otherwise like to progress inferior or lacking justification. It's practically establishing the definition of a sense of superiority, or perhaps more accurately when viewing it on the social level, caste systems. Call it giving someone motivation, looking forward to something, or whatever to gussy it up all nice, but when there's looking up, there is looking down. It's why BG had giant gimp threads in XI to ridicule people. It's why you see PUG shouts with beyond reasonable requirements. Some people think they're greater than they really are. Some lose touch with what it's like to climb up, especially when the conditions aren't optimal. Rarity outright implies a relationship between coveting an object you have and envying others who might when you don't. Why might people be trying to preserve this rarity in the digital sphere where resources can literally be infinite if not for ego?

In the end, people aren't asking for hand-outs no matter how much people might try to twist the argument for improved crafting yields. You can say you don't care, but I'm skeptical. The RMT argument others hide behind is a terribly weak defense. Sure, reality might not favor someone being a jack-of-all-trades these days, but let's not discount the possibility that there are some people out there who handle multiple aspects of their work, if not all, to save/make a buck. I don't care about climbing mountains, playing pianos, or whatever other RL comparisons are being made here. What I care about is giving everyone something to do at any given moment to keep them from feeling bored, overwhelmed, pressured, ridiculed, or whatever. If you got time in your day to raid, awesome. If the only time you've got at the moment is to do some mining, that's cool. Enough days like that, hey, you could match a raider's progress piece for piece. Or are we still going to say we don't care?
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#109 Oct 08 2013 at 5:25 AM Rating: Decent
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OK, not going to take the time to snip out quotes, but first, Filth:

The economy already implodes. Look at FFXI as an example. Crafters cannot sell much, if any, gear, rendering crafting it utterly useless. Why? Raiding progress cannot be bought. So saying that being able to be self-sufficient will crush the economy is mute. Raiding will do exactly that eventually, even if there are a few token sellable items. Saying that giving someone the ability to gear themselves will hurt the game's marketboards when you have the best gear coming from the Coil right now, from items that (as far as I know) cannot be sold in essence invalidates your entire economics argument. If SE doesn't give crafters a way to stay current, the only reason to have any craft will be consumables and furnishings, both of which have a limited market. I can't speak too much for WoW's AH, mainly because gear drops from regular mobs, so I have no idea how higher level crafters deal with that. I know from my limited experience there that I crafted for personal use. I saw little to no reason to try to compete with the market of freely dropped gear that, often, was better than what I could make. That's why I don't care if there is no gil incentive behind my crafting. I do it so that I don't have to pay others to do it. I am fine spending my time, and I actually enjoy running about the world.

And as for the snarky comment, your other arguments were ridiculous because they compared RL skills to MMO gaming, trying to equate the two. That's what I'm saying is ridiculous.

Seriha:

As you saw when I dared say MMO raiding doesn't take skill to do, the raiding community is sensitive about its place in the game. They will defend to the death that raiding should be the one, true way of MMOs. Forget that someone who has all level 50 crafts and gathering had to invest hours of their time to get those. It doesn't compare, from their perspective, to spending hours killing the same sets of enemies over and over to acquire their gear. Because reasons.

Like I said, when 1.0 dropped and I saw that you could be a crafter from the start, I had hopes that FFXIV would change that. You see, I knew a lot of dedicated crafters in FFXI. People who spent far longer on, working far harder to gain their level 100 than others who fell into a raiding group and got their drops relatively quickly. Why did those crafters not raid? Because they were either on irregular RL schedules or not on during the prime raiding times. Basically they'd have multiple mules with 100 crafts, walking around in +1 gear... and yet they were low-tier players gear-wise. They lacked the uber gear found in the game. They had invested tons of their own time, but due to just not having that group to go raiding with, they were doomed to be that gimped player with X or Y "needed" piece to be allowed to play with the other kids.

I don't need crafting to be 100% on par and equal to raiding gear. I'd be happy to simply have it equate to being close enough as to not be seen as gimped. As I said, I think if they keep up the concept they have now (Crafted gear achieving just one step down to the uber gear), and allow for people to "buy in" when their RL circumstances change to rejoin that uber raiding culture, it would go a long way for both crafters and the raiders.
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#110 Oct 08 2013 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
OK, not going to take the time to snip out quotes, but first, Filth:

The economy already implodes. Look at FFXI as an example. Crafters cannot sell much, if any, gear, rendering crafting it utterly useless. Why? Raiding progress cannot be bought.


XI isn't an example, it's a completely different game. First of all, crafting is limited in that you can only specialize in one craft and the rest are only supportive. This leads to healthier econ because you can't just make anything you need. You are forced to turn to trade or the auction house. Secondly, gear doesn't bind so you can buy and resell it. Third, gear actually has an impact on your leveling. In XI you can see gains in performance(however slight) when you upgrade from one piece to the next. In XIV you could level completely on FATEs and don't really ever have to upgrade.

There is no 'raid progress' in XI. It's not a progression model for anything outside of einherjar/nyzul. I can't speak on SoA, but XI was never based on progression and there are no encounters that would require you to have a specific item level to participate.

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Saying that giving someone the ability to gear themselves will hurt the game's marketboards when you have the best gear coming from the Coil right now, from items that (as far as I know) cannot be sold in essence invalidates your entire economics argument.


I never said that. I said allowing people to gear themselves in raid equivalent gear will cause them to skip content. The wards are removed from the equation. If anyone can create the gear then they're not going to buy it from the wards, they'll just get it themselves.

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
I can't speak too much for WoW's AH, mainly because gear drops from regular mobs, so I have no idea how higher level crafters deal with that. I know from my limited experience there that I crafted for personal use. I saw little to no reason to try to compete with the market of freely dropped gear that, often, was better than what I could make. That's why I don't care if there is no gil incentive behind my crafting.

The main draw for professions in WoW isn't the gear provided though, it's the personal buffs you get. Blacksmithing allows you to socket gear to get extra stats from gems, jewelcrafting gives you more powerful gems that only jewelcrafters can use, ect.

For the professions able to make gear, they're limited to only a few slots they can create raid ready gear. IIRC you have two slots you can create gear for out of ~16. You can also buy or craft a weapon for a whopping 3/16 raid level items. Regardless of how much gold you have, you can never walk up to the auction house as a fresh level 90 and walk away with enough gear to start raiding. You couldn't do it if you craft there either because it just isn't possible. At best, you can bridge the gap from normal to heroic 5 man dungeons and possibly LFR. No flex raids, no normal raids and certainly not any hardmode content.

All of the professions that make this gear use items that are on cooldowns of up to two weeks. For that reason, the items created sell well because they can't be cranked out. Even with the hefty population, the market is never saturated with these items. Professions that don't make gear have other items that can be created more frequently, but are always in demand. Instead of saving materials for a few weeks and selling one item for a grip of gold, they can make a few items a day and maintain a more consistent, but comparable income.

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
And as for the snarky comment, your other arguments were ridiculous because they compared RL skills to MMO gaming, trying to equate the two. That's what I'm saying is ridiculous.

You saw an opportunity to put me down and you took it. No big deal.

I compared elements of a game to real situations. I didn't say that defeating an encounter in an MMO was the same as climbing a mountain. You read it as one thing being the same as the other when all I did was equate specific ideas about the two. You form a strategy to defeat an encounter much the same way you form a strategy for climbing a rock face. For that reason, I feel the comparison was valid. It was never about the act, just the steps taken to be successful.

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#111 Oct 08 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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XI is trying to go the iLvl way with the latest expansion, but there's still no formal progression requirements. The dev team recommended people do stuff like NNI and Salvage 2 to gear up for Delve, and the population acted like they'd suggested eating babies for breakfast. SE added in Skirmish 2 which then kicked the butts of the NNI and Salvage 2 gear. And everyone was happy again because Skirmish is a "choose your own difficulty" event.
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#112 Oct 08 2013 at 8:53 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
There is no 'raid progress' in XI. It's not a progression model for anything outside of einherjar/nyzul. I can't speak on SoA, but XI was never based on progression and there are no encounters that would require you to have a specific item level to participate.


And there's your problem. There now is a raid progression. SoA is all about the ladder upwards. As I detailed elsewhere here, you need to go through the tiers of gear. This gear can all be obtained without touching the AH. Pink/Teal/Perle can be obtained via Cruor (And I think they gave away enough free recently to buy one entire set), you can use dropped or trial weapons to fill in the gaps, then grind Bayld and/or Empyrean to get the next set, then do Skirmish for more gear, then do Delve for even more gear. Prior to that, you can mindlessly grind GoV pages, the FFXI equivalent to FATEs now, with whatever gear you can piecemeal together, allowing your level to be the bigger factor in completing pages rather than gear superiority. There are now pretty hard gear caps too. Sure, you can try it with less, but you are wasting your efforts and pop items unless you are up to par. FFXI now actually has iLVL being incorporated into it as well.

And you could, in fact, have multiple 100's (or 120's I think now) on level 1 mules. I had a few friends back in the day with 2 mules at 100 in different crafts. They enjoyed that, and essentially if someone wanted to, they could become that same island if they wanted to. I would not recommend it, as crafts are virtually useless now. Everything is earned by various points earned by raiding. There are a few bits of purchasable gear that are decent, but you're better off speedgrinding an Empyrean weapon both to gain access to the higher content and in hopes that they will eventually buff that weapon.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I never said that. I said allowing people to gear themselves in raid equivalent gear will cause them to skip content. The wards are removed from the equation. If anyone can create the gear then they're not going to buy it from the wards, they'll just get it themselves.


And given that, as every MMO reaches old age and lower server population this is a good thing, I don't see a single problem with that. And so what if they can skip content. As I said, as the game ages, people won't do that content anyway. So keeping crafted gear in lockstep with the current endgame would allow people to not feel so out of the loop, and allow them to rejoin the gear hunt later if they have to leave the game for any number of reasons.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
Wow stuff
Just to keep length down, just wanted to say it is cool to get a view on another system. I can understand their controls on crafting, it works for that game. I really hope, however, that it doesn't move to here. In WoW, you aren't likely to have multiple high level raiding characters. FFXIV is a different creature. With the ability to reach 50 on multiple jobs/classes on a single character, you may want to gear them all up. Having the option to gear jobs that you don't primarily play in slightly lesser gear in order to be more valuable to your FC/friends in helping them farm items would be a great option.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
You saw an opportunity to put me down and you took it. No big deal.

I wasn't putting you down, I was saying your argument, and that statement, was stupid and ridiculous.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
I compared elements of a game to real situations. I didn't say that defeating an encounter in an MMO was the same as climbing a mountain. You read it as one thing being the same as the other when all I did was equate specific ideas about the two. You form a strategy to defeat an encounter much the same way you form a strategy for climbing a rock face. For that reason, I feel the comparison was valid. It was never about the act, just the steps taken to be successful.


And yet, you'd be wrong. My brother actually did climb mountains for a time, back in his younger days pre-kids. I can guarantee you he'd disagree that any strategy made at the base of a mountain lasts till the top. You can plan the trip (purchase enough equipment, hire the right guides if needed), you can assess the current status of the mountain to some degree, then hope (HOPE) that there isn't massive changes that totally invalidate your plan.

By contrast, boss encounters are largely the same. As I said, you don't go into Titan HM, and suddenly Titan is replaced by Bahamut or Garuda. That's exactly what happens in mountain climbing. A sudden storm, a rock slide/avalanche, and suddenly you now have an entirely different situation, one you can try to plan for but in the end have to overcome with your accumulated knowledge and skills. You can argue that having someone D/C or lag and die could be comparable, but realistically it isn't. If people lag out or disconnect, you likely will lose, despite your best efforts, because in the end the game has prerequisites for success, where as a mountain climber with vast experience could survive a disastrous turn based on his skills alone, defying all logical and mathematical odds of survival. If you can, after losing most of your party, defeat Titan HM from a totally unwinnable amount of life remaining and/or time, then you'd have an argument.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 10:54am by Pawkeshup
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#113 Oct 08 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
There is no 'raid progress' in XI. It's not a progression model for anything outside of einherjar/nyzul. I can't speak on SoA, but XI was never based on progression and there are no encounters that would require you to have a specific item level to participate.


And there's your problem. There now is a raid progression. SoA is all about the ladder upwards. As I detailed elsewhere here, you need to go through the tiers of gear. This gear can all be obtained without touching the AH.


I did say I wasn't familiar with SoA, but this info still doesn't touch on the discussion really. Even still, there isn't a 'you must be this tall to ride' attached to the gear as there is in other games and as there soon will be in XIV. Not unless XI players are still requiring that you have delve weapons to join groups for... /gasp, farming delve weapons Smiley: glare

The reason this was even brought up was the idea that crafted gear would be able to compete or surpass raid gear. Did SE give crafters any new recipes that compete with any of the endgame loot drops?

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
And yet, you'd be wrong. My brother actually did climb mountains for a time, back in his younger days pre-kids. I can guarantee you he'd disagree that any strategy made at the base of a mountain lasts till the top. You can plan the trip (purchase enough equipment, hire the right guides if needed), you can assess the current status of the mountain to some degree, then hope (HOPE) that there isn't massive changes that totally invalidate your plan.

^ This is a complete 180 from...
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

^ this.

You said that once a strategy had been devised for an encounter then it was simple rinse and repeat. Yet here, you say that every time your brother faced the same rock to climb his strategy had to be adjusted several times. You basically made an argument for my side when I said...
FilthMcNasty wrote:
there are certain elements and events that happen at specific times or when known conditions are met, but there are also elements you don't expect or are not aware of how to deal with before they happen


My whole point was that strategy isn't static and you pretty much just agreed with me after arguing for a page and a half. You say that you didn't put me down, but you called me stupid for having the idea I had and then turned around and affirmed it... I are confuse Smiley: dubious

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
If you can, after losing most of your party, defeat Titan HM from a totally unwinnable amount of life remaining and/or time, then you'd have an argument.

Pigeon-holed into proving that you can win the unwinnable? Seriously?

What part of the strategy is losing your most of your party and having your health reduced to 'unwinnable'? We're talking about the difference between your general plan going into an encounter and how you adjust that to overcome situations like you mention above. When you're faced with the possibility of having most of your group bopped flat and your health reduced; that is the point where you divert from your faceroll strategy and adapt one of your own. That's what is 'difficult' about raiding. Those points where your static cookie-cutter faceroll strategy that the first group ever to defeat the encounter came up with goes to sh*t, and you still manage to pull it out.

Those opportunities are not always there in every encounter, but they do exist. They're not even all that rare to be honest. You just don't hear about them because people would rather take the safest path.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 7:58pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#114 Oct 08 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Default
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You know what, I'm done. I really am. You are saying that my statement that PLANNING A MOUNTAIN ASCENT is a 180 from PLANNING AN MMO RAID?

Yes it is, it's repeated the same damned point. The same. ****. Point. Real life planning =/= MMO raid planning.

At this point, you are just trolling, kthxbai.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 8:53pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#115 Oct 08 2013 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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I thought we were talking about skill not planning. And how if someone, or something (as in a guide), teaches me how to do something, I no longer require skill in order to do whatever it is, since I'm just following some preset guidelines by someone who is better then me and did it first.

Unless its piano playing, rock climbing, or some video games I've never heard of but are apparently pretty hardcore.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 9:13pm by Jeskradha
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#116 Oct 08 2013 at 7:30 PM Rating: Default
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Jeskradha wrote:
I thought we were talking about skill not planning. And how if someone, or something (as in a guide), teaches me how to do something, I no longer require skill in order to do whatever it is, since I'm just following some preset guidelines by someone who is better then me and did it first.

Unless its piano playing, rock climbing, or some video games I've never heard of but are apparently pretty hardcore.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 9:13pm by Jeskradha


Pretty much I have said that, unlike RL skilled actions, MMOs can be played by simply replicating another's battle plan, where as it is much more difficult, and at times impossible, to do the same for something that requires actual skill (playing piano, mountain climbing, etc.) Filth brought in the whole "Hey since people have climbed Everest, let's not bother" thing, then began trying to equate planning an ascent to planning a raid, forgetting that raids rarely change to the extent any mountaineering ascent would. And now he's trying to say that I'm agreeing when I clearly don't and even state as much. So now basically trolling.

And yea, if you haven't tried Super Meat Boy, I recommend it.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#117 Oct 08 2013 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
You know what, I'm done. I really am.


This might blow you mind, but just something you apparently are not aware of.

Even though your avatar is in a fantasy world shooting fire from it's fingertips and dodging dragon breath... you, a real life person is controlling the outcome. Your actions in real life have an impact on what happens in fantasy land. Your planning and preparation for an encounter has an effect on what happens there. If you can't grasp that and see it for what it is, then yeah... you pretty much are done.

Mitt would be proud.

Jeskradha wrote:
I thought we were talking about skill not planning.


Said before I wasn't getting into the skill debate again. All I'll say on this is I believe that being able to read and react to something you see, whether it be a red circle your avatar is standing on or a person trying to tackle you in a game of football, is arguably a skill. Just an opinion.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 10:14pm by FilthMcNasty
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#118 Oct 08 2013 at 8:57 PM Rating: Default
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Even though your avatar is in a fantasy world shooting fire from it's fingertips and dodging dragon breath... you, a real life person is controlling the outcome. Your actions in real life have an impact on what happens in fantasy land. Your planning and preparation for an encounter has an effect on what happens there. If you can't grasp that and see it for what it is, then yeah... you pretty much are done.


Yes last time I checked I was playing this game IN REAL LIFE too. MAYBE THIS IS JUST A BIG DREAM, SOMEBODY PINCH ME PLEASE.

The notion of not gaining any skill in a computer game is pretty much like saying you've learnt absolutely nothing about the game during the time you've been playing it. It's a ridiculous notion, and supporting it is bordering on plain insanity. The knowledge you acquire, and the amount of "training" you do have a direct impact on your performance. Just look at any sports team, next someone will be saying that training and learning over time in a sport does not make you more skillful. If we're going down that path why not say that people never gain any skill in anything during their life, do not learn from experience, and then don't apply that knowledge to better themselves. The simple fact is that the more you do something, the more skilled you become. It doesn't matter whether it's picking your nose or playing a video game.

If we're to follow Pawkes' logic we're all pretty much big dumb blocks of wood who never really learn anything in life. Pawke's do you know how to react if one of your synths starts to go bad? That is a learnt skill (in a video game) right there.

Edited, Oct 9th 2013 2:59am by blowfin
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#119 Oct 08 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Default
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blowfin wrote:
If we're to follow Pawkes' logic we're all pretty much big dumb blocks of wood who never really learn anything in life. Pawke's do you know how to react if one of your synths starts to go bad? That is a learnt skill (in a video game) right there.


To clarify: Never said you cannot learn. Never said developing strategies was brainless. Never said that there was no challenge to MMOs. I specifically said, repeatedly, that it takes no skill to play an MMO. All you need to do is follow someone else's work, and there are no special requirements to that similar to other games or RL items. Not sure where you got any of that bullsh*t in your post, aside from out your ***.

Edit:

This is a brilliant showcase for the oversensitive raiding mentality though!

"ERMAGERD HE SAID DAT A GAME WERE ROTE STRATEGYS CAN BE USED BY OTHERS DOESN'T TAKE SKILL! RAGE! BLASPHEMER! I R TEH TALENTED RAIDERRRR!!! NO ONE BUT US CAN POSSIBLY DO ALL DIS!!! GET DA PITCHFORKS!!! GET DA TORCHES!!!"

I mean, it's not like an entire game's expansion storyline progression was beaten, and an outline of strategy became a defacto standard or anything. It's not like other games don't feature detailed walkthroughs for their bosses, which include videos. Totally forgot that only those who are the truly elite, the truly talented, may claim victory!

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 11:14pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#120 Oct 08 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
blowfin wrote:
If we're to follow Pawkes' logic we're all pretty much big dumb blocks of wood who never really learn anything in life. Pawke's do you know how to react if one of your synths starts to go bad? That is a learnt skill (in a video game) right there.


To clarify: Never said you cannot learn. Never said developing strategies was brainless. Never said that there was no challenge to MMOs. I specifically said, repeatedly, that it takes no skill to play an MMO. All you need to do is follow someone else's work, and there are no special requirements to that similar to other games or RL items. Not sure where you got any of that bullsh*t in your post, aside from out your ***.


Say what, are you saying there's no such thing as "computer skills"? No skill in being able to use a keyboard more effectively than the next person? Say you put your mother next to a PC and ask her to play FFXIV, do you think she'd have the skills to even get into the game and get to level 50? Also, the knowledge I've gained in other MMO's makes me more effective in FFXIV, are you saying that these skills that I've learnt don't apply in your definition? Sorry but your stance is still insane. This is not coming from a "raiders ego", you're just plain wrong.

By your logic you've never ever improved or got "more skillfull" at crafting. You do realise that don't you? Things like adapting on the fly to save a synth when you have some failed steps. Do you consider that a skill?

Edited, Oct 9th 2013 3:25am by blowfin
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#121 Oct 08 2013 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
To clarify: Never said you cannot learn. Never said developing strategies was brainless. Never said that there was no challenge to MMOs.


No, but you did say that beyond the world first clear there was no difficulty. Not everyone sits back and waits for that group to come through and formulate the strategy for beating an encounter. We're not all followers and we don't all like our Smiley: cookies cut the same way Smiley: sly

Perhaps if you stepped outside of the mold for a second you'd realize that there is challenge in trying to complete a task without the optimal setup. Maybe you'd actually see that it can be challenging?

Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
It's not like other games don't feature detailed walkthroughs for their bosses, which include videos.

And yet, it still takes months(weeks more recently) and hundreds of wipes for people to clear the content despite having early access to it through beta testing and a dungeon journal to tell you what to be aware of even before the videos start rolling out.

So because you have all of the information available months in advance, it should be a cakewalk amirite? Why then, is it not? Perhaps because it's still challenging and not as easy as you make it out to be to execute? Nah, couldn't be Smiley: rolleyes
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#122 Oct 08 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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So because you have all of the information available months in advance, it should be a cakewalk amirite? Why then, is it not?


By Pawke's logic everyone should beat Titan HM on their first try if they've read about it on a forum somewhere. We know this isn't true. For myself it took a few runs to get used to the mechanics, i'm now more skillful at the Titan fight. Same goes with Garuda, same goes with pretty much any content in the game. Somehow we've overlooked the fact the learning is a skill too. It seems some people might be a few tools short of a chest in that department though.

Edited, Oct 9th 2013 3:35am by blowfin
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#123 Oct 08 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Default
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This is a brilliant showcase for the oversensitive raiding mentality though!


On the contrary you're brilliant showcase of vitriolic bile slinging towards parts of the community you don't participate in.
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#124 Oct 08 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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You all need to calm the **** down.
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