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A bit confused on endgame crafted gear...Follow

#52 Oct 05 2013 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
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Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

Unless you go in blind with a group that doesn't have weapons/gear that were unobtainable prior to beating it.


OK, granted. If you just try the fight blind, that first time can be a challenge.

Deadgye wrote:
Also, crafted gear with melds is better than dungeon gear with the same ilvl. That's how it works and that's how it's going to continue to be, for the most part.


And so long as that stays the norm, I'm perfectly OK with that. It takes time to soulbind gear, and judging from the fails I see running through the market sections, it's not guaranteed success for that.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#53 Oct 05 2013 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.

Thayos wrote:
This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear. This would add a tremendous incentive for people to level their crafting jobs, because they'd then have two pathways to good endgame gear... WITHOUT pulling people away from dungeons, but while also adding use to crafting.


Crafting needs adjustments elsewhere. Adding the ability to craft more than just a few pieces of gear(and this should be done independently of running dungeons for materials) is just redundant. You're running dungeons to get gear in the first place. A material that is crafted into gear is essentially the same thing as gear.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#54 Oct 05 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.


No encounter is truly "difficult" as you say. Every encounter boils down to following the same pattern of actions each time you meet with that encounter. Name any MMO, any one, that has a truly skill-based check. There isn't one. That's because, and I hate to break it to you, MMOs take little to no skill. It's push buttons in X order while standing in Y spot. That's it. That's what every fight boils down to. Skill-based games are extremely rare, and you will never see a major MMO go that route, simply because the longer you play, the more money they make. Skill-based games are taxing on your mental and physical capacities. Look at something like Super Meat Boy. How long could you play it, non-stop, at the highest levels? Repeating those highest levels always hitting A+ on the score? Sure, they do become rote after a while once you learn them, but that becomes true for anything in life. But, by and far, those games that require true skill are those that require both fast mental decisions and rapid dexterous movements.

Does FFXIV? **** no. Has any MMO? **** no. That level of tension would cause a meltdown if you were keeping yourself keyed up for a 90-minute raid. As I said, the first time, you will face adversity if you've not studied the fight or decided the strategy. After that, you just have to pay attention to the pattern.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 3:25pm by Pawkeshup
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#55 Oct 05 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Something I think that could help. Is if they add like a relic recipe. It could be rare drop from dungeon bosses that requires dropped mats from trash mobs. Then the items could be given to a crafter of that level to craft it and once the recipe it's used its gone and can't be used again unless you get the mats and recipe again. Have the success rate not be that high so it can rival the best end game gear and have the hq version be the best gear this way everyone wins
#56 Oct 05 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Default
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xellosalpha wrote:
Ideally, they can put the super high end ingredient at the end of the raid, they get the ingredient and ask the crafter to made the item like how they did with vrtra and kirin back then. It would actually made crafter being needed. Then again we run into this issue.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-jc-pennys-effect



Ugh! Just goes to show that most consumers are brain dead and would rather be deceived than be told the truth. Some people make me wonder if they have anything going on in the brain pan. I actually like the idea they talk about in that video, that's what I imagine when I think great crafting in an MMO.

Why is it we can't have that? Have mats drop instead of gear?

I'm sure the masses will cue in and say something along the lines of, "Maybe I don't want to craft!" and that's fine but I believe that doing the same raids all day long for a chance at some gear is rather annoying. I like the idea of having sell-able mats drop from raids that can be used to make multiple items. This way those who enjoy doing raids have an insensitive for doing them and those that don't can simply buy the items they need. Why is this a bad thing? A person who would rather craft than raid getting the same opportunity for gear as the guy doing the raid and the guy doing the raid not having to pick up a craft because they know if they get the mats they can have it made. Everyone gets theirs in the end by different means.
#57 Oct 05 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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The issue with having sellable items from raiding is that you have gilsellers turn to grinding these items.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#58 Oct 05 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Default
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
The issue with having sellable items from raiding is that you have gilsellers turn to grinding these items.


Ok good point. Here's a better idea then.

Make the raid drop unsellable tokens of some sort, varying in quantity compared to difficulty and associated with that raid. Have NPC in major hub exchange said tokens for unsellable crafting materials with token prices varying again based on difficulty of raid. Adding bonuses to clear time and whether or not you killed everything on your path to the end wouldn't hurt. Also a boost in exp so we can actually use them for leveling wouldn't hurt either but keeping FATE grinding on equal ground in terms of exp. Make all raid drops meld-able.
Edit: Maybe make hard mode raids that drop HQ tokens that one can buy HQ versions of the mats.

Introduce a system where a Disciple of Hand can que for an instance just like any Disciple of War or Magic. Have the DoH and anybody needing something spawn in a small instanced room. Use a system similar to this for crafting: http://eorzeareborn.com/materia-consignment/
Have the DoH set the price before entering but also give them the option of doing it for free if they choose. Maybe give the DoH the ability to HQ said raid gear? Just putting that bit out there.

Now how about those DoH classes that want shiny battle gear compared to raid gear but without the raid? Introduce a separate system from leves where DoH classes can acquire same gear but instead of doing raids they turn in crafted items for same tokens that are dropped in raids (not gonna get into ratio).

Introducing these systems also gives people who decide to level both DoH and DoW/M a slight boost. Incentive to, if not level completely, at least dabble in both aspects of the game. Now this can fail or win depending on how well they balance it.

Here you have different paths leading to the same endgame shiny loot. Everybody wins?

Edit 2: Imagine free companies dedicated to DoH classes that have nothing but DoH and DoL exp boosts on all day. The moment this system would go into effect is the moment I make one. /dream

Edited, Oct 5th 2013 3:00pm by CupDeNoodles
#59 Oct 05 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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domice wrote:
Something I think that could help. Is if they add like a relic recipe. It could be rare drop from dungeon bosses that requires dropped mats from trash mobs. Then the items could be given to a crafter of that level to craft it and once the recipe it's used its gone and can't be used again unless you get the mats and recipe again. Have the success rate not be that high so it can rival the best end game gear and have the hq version be the best gear this way everyone wins

Hated this in Rift, and half the time the recipes were still sub-par. What it turned into is everyone just Need lotting on the recipes to sell even though you'd have someone in the group who could actually use it. The mark-up on the scrolls almost often took too long to make up buy actual sales of the product due to material cost and AH fees, too. I feel like I'd prefer a system where I had to manually HQ 10 of a certain item before it'd unlock a relic version, but even that's a bit RNG pandering, though obviously easier for those who work to level all crafts.

Meanwhile, people need to get away from this exclusive mat idea. It's letting the RMT win (Hint: Tireless manpower), for one, but you may as well stick a fork in the economy, too. Part of the economic issue of dungeon gear superiority is that ruins incentive to craft. This isn't magically fixed by dungeon craft drops from tomes, either, as it just builds resentment from those who dislike that type of grind. As a comparison, it'd be like telling someone to level BRD in FFXI to run Delve so later on they could Delve with their DRK. The people spewing that drivel don't seem to care that it'll also take time to level and gear the second job on top of acquiring its abilities. And just because knuckledragging basement dweller could do it in a day, it could take weeks for someone else. And by then Delve becomes harder to do by virtue of PUGs further escalating their standards on top of less people wanting to do it now that they got what they wanted out of it.

The whole "My Time Doing X Thing > Your Time Doing Y Thing No Matter How Much Y Thing You Do" dynamic used to shoot down desires of equal progression methods needs to go.
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#60 Oct 05 2013 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.


It's a matter of execution Pawkeshup. Just knowing a strategy for an enounter doesn't guarantee victory unless there are only small windows of execution. If you aren't required to think quickly and adapt then the encounter was never difficult to begin with.


No encounter is truly "difficult" as you say.


What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

There are encounters in other MMOs where if someone fails to execute you may as well all join hands and sing kumbaya as you watch your attempt go down in flames. Your healer might be pushed out of range of a tank at a critical time, maybe they didn't move in time or maybe someone misses an interrupt. Any and all of those things (including a laundry list more) could go wrong and mean defeat. The execution isn't always exactly the same either(AoE in the exact same spot, timing and number of adds spawning and who they aggro, ect ect.).

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#61 Oct 06 2013 at 2:11 AM Rating: Default
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@Thayos
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This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear.

Yes. I am o.k. with that.

The main problems I have with crafted stuff that rivals top-level dungeon drops can be summed up in two sentences:
1.) It would allow people to buy their way to the top
2.) The only challenge with crafting is wasted time. And we should be beyond the stage in gaming history where wasted time = success.

@Pawkeshup
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First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.

P.S.: ZAM is experiencing serious server issues today, isn't it?

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:12am by Rinsui
#62 Oct 06 2013 at 7:35 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

[...]

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
Rinsui wrote:
@Pawkeshup
Quote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.


It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content? If it's on such a razor's edge, if it all hinges on crucial, amazing timing, why is it that, once a strategy has been found, that people run the content collecting gear? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it comes down to gear and mindless button pressing. That's it, that's all. I'm so sorry to tell you that your hours of training in your job amounts to repeating the same actions in the same order to win the same encounter each and every time.

Raiding isn't special. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Unless you are trying to beat content that has not yet been beaten, you aren't doing anything special. I get that you feel the need to make it seem that way, to place value on what it is you are doing, but realistically, everything you posted comes down to mindlessly repeating actions that bring success. The first time you run the encounter, you've done it. You've done it all. Every time after is just a repeat of the same content. You know the boss phases. You know the adds. Can things happen slightly differently? Sure, but slightly. It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.

And is repeatedly executing that hard? No. Sorry, but no. If it was, then people would not win the instance as often as they do. It would be a rarity for anyone to win, ever. That's just not the case. It simply isn't. It might be with Coils right now, but that's because strategy and gearing are still being sorted out. Once that's done, people will run the content day in and day out, racking up wins over and over. And not because they are so picture perfect that they make Jesus weep. It's because MMOs are designed to respond to proper strategy. Period. It's a puzzle. Find the solution, and win.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#63 Oct 06 2013 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
What is difficult is being able to execute. I used to say that FFXI wasn't difficult because in most encounters you could recover from something that would spell a wipe in almost any other game. That or you could ele seal and sleep the mob or just have whoever got hate when the tank went down do some kiting for a few minutes.

[...]

You make it seem like once someone comes up with a strategy that the encounter becomes trivial. Just because one group can complete content doesn't mean that everyone who follows can do it just as easily. That may hold true for a few encounters, but is not the case the majority of the time; especially in content that is tuned to be difficult to complete even with proper strategy.
Rinsui wrote:
@Pawkeshup
Quote:
First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing.

No, that simply is not true. Raiding requires the coordination of a whole team. One of your guys messes up and that's it. You miss one of the red circles and that's it. One guy ragequits and that's it. You run out of time and that's it. You don't find a group and that's it. Show me an example where crafting requires you to be constantly on your toes like a high-level raid, and you might have an argument.


It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content? If it's on such a razor's edge, if it all hinges on crucial, amazing timing, why is it that, once a strategy has been found, that people run the content collecting gear? Sorry to burst your bubble, but it comes down to gear and mindless button pressing. That's it, that's all. I'm so sorry to tell you that your hours of training in your job amounts to repeating the same actions in the same order to win the same encounter each and every time.

Raiding isn't special. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. Unless you are trying to beat content that has not yet been beaten, you aren't doing anything special. I get that you feel the need to make it seem that way, to place value on what it is you are doing, but realistically, everything you posted comes down to mindlessly repeating actions that bring success. The first time you run the encounter, you've done it. You've done it all. Every time after is just a repeat of the same content. You know the boss phases. You know the adds. Can things happen slightly differently? Sure, but slightly. It's not like you go in, fight HM Titan and suddenly he changes to using all new abilities you've never seen. You know what you need to do going in.

And is repeatedly executing that hard? No. Sorry, but no. If it was, then people would not win the instance as often as they do. It would be a rarity for anyone to win, ever. That's just not the case. It simply isn't. It might be with Coils right now, but that's because strategy and gearing are still being sorted out. Once that's done, people will run the content day in and day out, racking up wins over and over. And not because they are so picture perfect that they make Jesus weep. It's because MMOs are designed to respond to proper strategy. Period. It's a puzzle. Find the solution, and win.


That's not true I remember in ffxi ehinjeir (sp) there was a strategy for every wing. But even if everyone knew the strategy more times then not people failed, heck even in this game lots of times boss end in wipes the first few times it's just that in ffxiv if you all die its no problem to start again and tweek a strategy used by others to fit your group best.

And on a side note yes repeating actions in life is hard. A surgeon can perform the same operation a thousand times difficulty doesn't change just how comfortable he is with it. And no he will not succeed every time he dose that surgery.

Also on another side not that same surgeon didn't come up with that surgery he is just following a guide that someone else before him came up with. Does that mean surgeons are not skilled? No because if something goes wrong a accident happens they have the knowledge to recover. Same with a mmo something happens miss a stun is the run over our will people be able to recover. It's the something in football and blown plays, basketball and missed free throws, and baseball and errors.
#64 Oct 06 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
And on a side note yes repeating actions in life is hard. A surgeon can perform the same operation a thousand times difficulty doesn't change just how comfortable he is with it. And no he will not succeed every time he dose that surgery.

Also on another side not that same surgeon didn't come up with that surgery he is just following a guide that someone else before him came up with. Does that mean surgeons are not skilled? No because if something goes wrong a accident happens they have the knowledge to recover. Same with a mmo something happens miss a stun is the run over our will people be able to recover. It's the something in football and blown plays, basketball and missed free throws, and baseball and errors.


Now you are taking something that takes actual skills versus pressing buttons in a given order. Earlier, I even said playing some games (Like Super Meat Boy) do require skill and manual dexterity. MMOs, by their nature, just do not. So you cannot trot out other disciplines or even other game genres and say "Look, my raiding takes just as much skill as all of that!" Doctors need to learn how to cut, cauterize, sew, and use a various amount of equipment, not just pick up a controller and press buttons. People who are amazing at fighting games cannot just repeat the same buttons over and over versus other live opponents, even though they are holding a controller and pressing buttons. Face facts, it doesn't take skill to do what you do in an MMO.

As for your example, that event had a random selection of monsters, so therefore it is much more difficult to have a set strategy for it, and poor luck can stick you with two hard families. So, realistically, a wipe is possible if the RNG is not on your side. However, most endgame raids don't feature that level of randomness. There are a few examples in FFXI that I know of, and most of those are criticized for their randomness being a factor at all.

I realize that I've obviously struck a nerve daring to have the opinion that no MMO takes true skill to play it, but the very fact that you can design bots to play the game, or that RMT can obtain the same items regular players can screams that I'm right. All you need is a strategy and the right order of commands. That's it.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#65 Oct 06 2013 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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My thing is, I'd that you keep saying things like super meat boy require skill but it is literally the same thing as a mmo. Timing and button pressing implying different is the timing of when to press said button
#66 Oct 06 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I didn't really follow the talk here, so I think I'll get to my doubt about gears.

In short, how do the 3 end-game gear sets compare with each other; Allagan sets (from BC), AF2 sets (from Myth tomes), and Green crafted gears (those that require materials purchased by Philo tomes).

Having a brief look, Allagan and AF2 seem similar and just a difference in 1 type of stat given by each. Does it mean they are in par with each other in regards to performance, and it's just a matter of preference of which particular stat type we want between those 2?
Also given the fact that BC is somewhat challenging early on, so for the casual ones they could just be patient and farm weekly Myth tomes to get AF2 - as they are in par with Allagan sets in performance.

How about the green crafted sets that require Philo tome materials? Is it any better in performance after being melded with full slot materia compared with Allagan and AF2? I notice a lot of people buying the Philo tome materials, so I'm just wondering if the sets are really worth the effort of gathering all the required materials, or perhaps it's just for fashion purpose.
#67 Oct 06 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
My thing is, I'd that you keep saying things like super meat boy require skill but it is literally the same thing as a mmo. Timing and button pressing implying different is the timing of when to press said button


I can tell you right now that you are incorrect there. It is much harder to play a game that requires physical co-ordination over just rotating what buttons you press and where you stand. Go ahead, and pick up that game. Record your hands playing the game. Now do the same with an MMO. The amount of manual dexterity required is greatly different. I play several kinds of games, and I find MMOs relaxing in comparison to most others. You don't need razor sharp reflexes or twitchy thumbs to deal with MMO combat. MMOs focus on finding the pattern you need to do, and not losing focus on that pattern. It's because, mechanically, they are less skill/reflex based and more puzzles/mathematical equations.

Take Dark Souls versus FFXIV for just a moment.

In Dark Souls, you can beat any boss you want at any time you want for the most part, with few exceptions. The issue is that you have to be ready to outplay the game, and work from a true disadvantage. You could literally go up against the final boss of the game using the starting weapon. You truly can. However, you have to be perfect, utterly flawless, in both strategy and execution. One slip and it truly does end in a loss. Gear and levels make it greatly easier to beat the bosses in Dark Souls, though. That allows you to win with less skill and bigger numbers, and in a shorter time.

In FFXIV, if you are 10 levels or more below something, there is a strong likelihood that you're ******* It's because numbers, not skill, determines your victory. You cannot beat FFXIV's final boss as a level 1, even if you would be able to access the fight. It doesn't matter how much skill you exert. Simply put, using your base weapon and your base skill, you will not even damage the boss. You can use every kiting trick, every potion, but you will lose, 100% of the time.

Therein lies the divide between the skill-based and strategy-based games.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#68 Oct 06 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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bWhite1 wrote:
I didn't really follow the talk here, so I think I'll get to my doubt about gears.

In short, how do the 3 end-game gear sets compare with each other; Allagan sets (from BC), AF2 sets (from Myth tomes), and Green crafted gears (those that require materials purchased by Philo tomes).

Having a brief look, Allagan and AF2 seem similar and just a difference in 1 type of stat given by each. Does it mean they are in par with each other in regards to performance, and it's just a matter of preference of which particular stat type we want between those 2?
Also given the fact that BC is somewhat challenging early on, so for the casual ones they could just be patient and farm weekly Myth tomes to get AF2 - as they are in par with Allagan sets in performance.

How about the green crafted sets that require Philo tome materials? Is it any better in performance after being melded with full slot materia compared with Allagan and AF2? I notice a lot of people buying the Philo tome materials, so I'm just wondering if the sets are really worth the effort of gathering all the required materials, or perhaps it's just for fashion purpose.


The way I see it now it's a mix of AF2 and Allagan, at least for Monk anyway but I can only assume it's the same for most. Each class has its preferred stats and mixing the two seems to get you the best outcome.
#69 Oct 06 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no divide its all just timing. I played demon and dark souls. There is no great coordination all pve games are just recognize patterns and press button. In video games the harder the game just means the less margin of error that is afforded to you. And I'm not saying that mmos are my fav type of games, but what I am saying is people dismiss what skill is and what it's not due to what you perceive is hard. Typing is a skill that I'm sure most people on here think is trivial but to others it's very difficult. Heck even reading is a skill along with pattern recognition. Playing a mmo is no less a skill then walking and running.
#70 Oct 06 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
There is no divide its all just timing. I played demon and dark souls. There is no great coordination all pve games are just recognize patterns and press button. In video games the harder the game just means the less margin of error that is afforded to you. And I'm not saying that mmos are my fav type of games, but what I am saying is people dismiss what skill is and what it's not due to what you perceive is hard. Typing is a skill that I'm sure most people on here think is trivial but to others it's very difficult. Heck even reading is a skill along with pattern recognition. Playing a mmo is no less a skill then walking and running.


It isn't skillful. Can you read a wiki article, then have perfect jogging form? No, that's something that you have to learn, to co-ordinate and train. Can you read a wiki article, then beat a boss on an MMO? Yes, you can. You might get more efficient with time doing it, but the fact remains that you can actually win a fight solely by duplicating the same series of buttons as someone else. You don't have to apply any form of skill to it outside of how to hold a controller and how to press buttons. However, you can watch/read all you want about Dark Souls, you still need to reflexes and ability to execute.

And again, MMOs are not even close to doing anything that demands physical co-ordination and conditioning like running. I get it, you want to feel skillful by playing an MMO. It's just not true. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the true skills you apply in MMOs have nothing to do with the game, and are even from different disciplines. Communication, puzzle solving, research, mathematics... all of these are far more important than the actual play of an MMO.

Even typing is a skill. It requires accuracy, practice to increase speed, proper form to avoid injury. Reading is a skill that can be developed. It has nothing to do with perceived difficulty. All of your examples further the point that following a rote strategy that anyone, literally anyone, can follow and win, takes 0 skill. None, zip. You just need to match up with the gear and tactics provided, and you win! I cannot go read a wiki on typing, then turn around and type 200 wpm. I cannot go read a wiki on football, then become an NFL starter. I can go read a wiki, then immediately go win a fight in an MMO. Skilled tasks take time, ability, practice, and are subject to physical and mental conditioning. MMOs simply are not in that arena.

Edit:

The one thing that I will grant you is that if you do have sharp reflexes, a more adaptive mind, et cetera, then you will have an easier time playing MMOs, because those will transfer over into the game, but you cannot outskill an MMO.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 3:26pm by Pawkeshup
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#71 Oct 06 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Nevermind the skill debate, because it's already been beaten into glue...

If it wasn't difficult then people wouldn't fail it repeatedly to the tune of hundreds of times prior to World's First achievements being awarded. Following that, guilds still fail hundreds of times anyway. You're way over-simplifying it Pawkeshup. Not all aspects of an encounter happen the same way everytime. Your logic is so broken.

"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode". That's what you sound like here. Maybe you're just so much better than everyone else that every instance ever made actually is easy for you. It's completely possible Smiley: nod

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:17pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#72 Oct 06 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode".


Do you understand the amount of stupidity contained in this one sentence? The sheer level of arrogance to even compare something like climbing Everest to playing an MMO?

This is where the raiding culture has led your brain? Seriously? Look, if you are resorting to this level of ridiculousness, then there's no hope in getting you to see any sort of reason. The sheer fact that you ignored me saying, initially, that developing that first strategy does take skill. I've said several times that testing and developing that does take skills. You have to watch the numbers, observe and test. Just like planning a chess gambit, it takes skill. Or discerning the solution to a puzzle. However, following that subsequent strategy takes none. You cannot argue that.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#73 Oct 06 2013 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup wrote:
However, following that subsequent strategy takes none. You cannot argue that.


There is a strategy for climbing the mountain face just like there is a strategy to defeat an encounter. Both require that you execute and both are adjusted either prior to the attempt and/or on the fly depending on conditions that are not in your control. There is no one path to conquering an instance or a mountain face that is the easiest path everytime. You make it out as though there is, but there is not.

The analogy wasn't to compare the difficulty of playing a videogame to climbing Everest. It was made to prove the point that something doesn't just become easy because it's been done before. It could have been compared to anything really, but since you used chess then lets roll with that...

You can't just follow a list of moves from a game of chess you won before and expect to win every game unless your opponent makes the exact same moves against it. That doesn't happen in chess and it doesn't happen in MMO encounters. Because they deal with AI, there are certain elements and events that happen at specific times or when known conditions are met, but there are also elements you don't expect or are not aware of how to deal with before they happen. In chess you expect your opponent to react in a certain way, but that isn't always the case either.

Don't make it out to be that one single strategy removes all aspects of difficulty from an encounter. It simply isn't true.

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 8:22pm by FilthMcNasty
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#74 Oct 06 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

"Oh, someone climbed Mount Everest already? Ok, well... no need to try doing that anymore because now it's ezmode". That's what you sound like here. Maybe you're just so much better than everyone else that every instance ever made actually is easy for you. It's completely possible Smiley: nod

Edited, Oct 6th 2013 5:17pm by FilthMcNasty



http://www.alpineascents.com/everest.asp

It is easy-mode now. You can buy guided tours to the top.

The guy who did it first had it the hardest. Actually, the ones who failed to get the top first had it hardest, because a few of them died. And everyone learned from their mistakes.

Bringing us to today, where people can pay for other people to run them to the top for exorbitant fees.

Kinda sounds familiar.
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#75 Oct 06 2013 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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@Pawke
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It makes me laugh reading comments like this, and just showcases the raiding culture. "OMG YOU MUST BE PERFECT OR IT ALL GOES UP IN FLAAAAAAAAAMES!!!" Then tell me, gentlemen, how is it people farm the content?

We are good. And work as a team.

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It is much harder to play a game that requires physical co-ordination over just rotating what buttons you press and where you stand.

Try doing your job in raid for starters, then talk about not requiring physical coordination. Or quick reflexes. Or situational awareness. Because if you don`t need those you should thank your team for dragging a fifth wheel along all the time you`re online.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 2:57am by Rinsui
#76 Oct 06 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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or try pvp. i mean, when like, pvp is in this game. that's where the real challenge is; although i suspect, at least in the case of Frontlines, the real challenge will be overcoming the lag that will surely be destroying framerates the world over.
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