Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Raid Progression GamingFollow

#1 Oct 09 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
***
2,214 posts
I can't help but notice that this game, since it's release has, as more of a community, but by development as well, has changed the meaning of RPG from Role Playing Game to Raid Progression Game.

Raid Issues:
While, I do like the challenges that some of the dungeons offer, the idea of the joint quests, and the shared content (which has been very limited in this game to only being the main storyline, and Quest starters for dungeon raids) has been reduced down to "Complete this dungeon to go to the next dungeon".

I have made it through, playing 1.0, only to find that the game that they finally settled on is one I am losing interest in very rapidly. The irony is, there are now a ton of things I want to do in the game, however, everything in the game simply leads to the Coil. Everything else in the game is treated like an inconvenience. I haven't seen Wander's Palace, I haven't gone into CC. I haven't spent any time the Beastman camps except what was needed to advance the storyline, and to advance my relic.


Classic Comparisons:
There is nothing like running out to Altepa to complete a quest, or to go through Sea Serpent's Grotto to find a new town, or even farm Sahagins. There is no riding a ferry to fight skeletons to get a necklace, or going back and forth between towns to help a budding chef prove to his father that he is worthy as a cook.

There is nothing like tracking down Rare Summons you can only find in bizarre and strange locations. Or an optional fight you don't even need to do that is nearly impossible to win (short of Odin or Bahamut, which is a COMPLETE JOKE). 99% of the game is obsolete by player discretion and development progression.

I can't think of a moment in 2.0 where I felt anything remotely close to the way that I have enjoyed any Final Fantasy. And I am including games like X-2, and 9 (both of which I found to be unenjoyable, X-2 was the first Final Fantasy I never played through, and actually it, and 11 were the last Final Fantasy I played until 14 came out).


Combat Mechanics
Even the combat mechanics have reached the point where they are not only almost like RTS, Titan is purely an RTS fight. You can literally defeat that fight by simply knowing exactly when to move. Because you know the next move will happen ~X seconds after the last move. So, it becomes a combination of dealing X damage between event A and event B, rinse and repeat. This also goes for the Wall, Garuda, Hydra, and Titan HM to name a few. Where you do still have a few mobs that have classic RPG style combat (Such as the bosses in AV, the first two bosses in CM for the most part, and the beginning dungeons.


Raid Progression
But ultimately the game caters to Raid progression. I guess I am just getting turned off to the game, and I can't believe I am saying this, but I think I am losing interest. The worst part is, there is a lot in the game I would like to do, but it comes down to the point that there is no point in doing anything else. With all of the wonderful content added to the game, all of the quests, all of the places to go, things to craft and gather, the fishing, the fates, there really is no point in it all. Just get to 50, get your main storyline done, and bash your head against the same dungeons over and over and over and over and over...


One Last Note:
Something interesting about Raid Progression games is that it is not a new genre. It is actually as old as RPGs, they were called Dungeon Crawlers. For the most part, I played a few of them (Wizadry, Zork, Dungeon Master, Might and Magic, Gauntlet, and the such). So, in a way, I guess one of the issues I tend to have is when the comment about "This is the new way of gaming" is basically saying "This type of Retro is in". And while there are always new tweaks to existing game, new ideas, and even new styles of game play. And in many ways, 14 is combining Dungeon Crawl, MUD, and RTS into a linear progression game, and taking out the optional development paths. Combine that with the push and the drive to not only skip the story, but leave parties because someone in your party is bothering to watch what is going on.


I guess, rather than venting (and I admit there is quite a bit of ranting here), I am just trying to see if there are any people out there that are actually trying to play this as an RPG rather than a Dungeon Raid game? Or am I just an old fogey who should just stick to my ROMs, as it would appear the age of my favorite genre appears to be in it's twilight years?
#2 Oct 09 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
*****
12,824 posts
While I agree with several of your points, the issue with MMOs is that storyline content is a labour intensive process that usually results in very little actual playtime. I would love to see a gorgeous, totally story-driven MMO, but the reality is that the amount of manhours it would take to constantly bring new, non-grind, non-raid-to-raid sort of content would be ridiculous to keep up to the pace most MMO players set. Look at all the work that went into the reinvention of the game, and already people are sitting at endgame, having blasted through the story.

I would not give up entirely yet, as if you see the announcement of boat and airship building could lead to lots of other fun experiences in and of themselves. Ultimately, I know most MMOs boil down to the Raid or Die philosophy, and I will be in there too, grabbing what I can from that content. But really, I look forward more to building my own house, my own boat, and (who knows) setting out to a lake somewhere to go fish or explore the world.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#3 Oct 09 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
stop playing game?
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#4 Oct 09 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
*
197 posts
All I can say is fun is what you make it. I love this game, but I am only level 45 and I try my hardest to not turn it into a grind. I feel no pity for people who sprinted to end game and are bored now, or the people who just grind fates to level. Its like what are you even playing for?

I've been questing, running dungeons, doing guild heists, I'll stop to do a fate here and there, do some hunting log stuff, or if I get tired of that I'll go level my gold smiting. Sometimes I'll even just go run around a zone just looking at the scenery taking screen shots. I also watch all the cut scenes and pay attention to the story line, and if that bothers someone else cause I'm taking to long, they can eat a ****, cause I am playing/paying for my enjoyment, not yours.

Sure you can say that some of that is all worthless in the end, but if that's how you feel maybe you shouldn't be playing because your obviously not getting any enjoyment out of it.

I realize that at 50 I'm going to have to start grinding for tomes and what not, and I am totally interested in raiding, but I also have other characters I plan on leveling and once it starts to feel more like a job then something I am doing for enjoyment, I just change up whatever i'm doing atm. Cause, I mean, after all isn't the point in playing a game to relax, escape reality, and have fun.

Edited, Oct 9th 2013 12:14pm by Jeskradha
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#5 Oct 09 2013 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
What you've described is largely what FFXI was when it was first released. Those saghagins didn't exist. :P Nor did Altepa or Norg.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_the_Zilart

Just look at all the content that was released in RotZ: an expansion that came out, for many of us, during NA release on the PC (10/28/03) and had been out in Japan since 4/17/03. The base game, FFXI, had been out in Japan since May 16, 2002. It took them almost a year to release that expansion....which added a TON of new things as you can see.

You can always queue for Wanderer's Palace. I queue for every dungeon at least once. I think Wanderer's Palace is much more fun than Amdapor Keep, actually. What you're describing is the lack of incentive to go to these areas and I agree: placing all the mythology in one dungeon barring BC (and dinky contributions from HM primals) was sh*tty execution.

I think you would spend more time in the beastmen areas if you did your relic quest. They directly send you there. However, I will concede that the beastmen areas are nowhere near as impressive as Oztroja, Ghesba, or Beadeaux. We spent plenty of time in those dungeons just farming for AF things. They've kind of negated the need to be there for lengthy durations due to AF being very easy to obtain (and very easy to replace as soon as you obtain it).

I've had much more enjoyment playing this game than X-2. 9 was a great game and had wonderful lore and story.

I'm not sure why you are commenting on Titan and his 'RTS' nature. Almost every fight I can think of in 11 was like this from land kings to ToAU HNMs to sky. All scripted, all predictable. I agree that some of the mechanics in the starting dungeons are much more interesting than the ones in the 'endgame' dungeons right now. But, I think coil has some really cool fights too. They're scripted and predictable but very challenging just the same. It doesn't matter if you know when something is going to occur if 3 other things are happening at once that your group needs to take care of.

Please explain to me how 11 wasn't hellbent on raid progression? You maybe feel that it wasn't because leveling from 1-75 in basic FFXI was an arduous task but then what did you do at 75? Helped people and did HNMs and sky. When you logged into FFXI at 75, what did you think of doing? "Oh I'm going to go explore that zone I've been in 57 times before." No, you didn't do that. You maybe fished (which you can in 14), crafted (" "), sat in town and talked (" "), leveled another job (" "), and so on.

You feel like this game is missing something because you were able to speed through most of the zones without really caring about any of them. I can sympathize because I feel that way too. At the same time, it has only been out for a short while. There is new stuff on the way. If an expansion of RotZ's caliber is in the works, that'd be incredible.

Right now the only thing I feel is that the world is too small and there is not enough variation. There is no need to pass through most zones because you can teleport everywhere. I used to ride a chocobo through many zones in 11 because I didn't have teleport from WHM or couldn't change readily. This lead to some interesting adventures, sure, and I miss that. But this isn't 11 anymore. Yoshi is part of the hardcore progression crowd. While I'm sure he's smart enough to look at what 11 did right and borrow from it, he's also smart enough to realize what 11 did wrong and, instead, look to other MMOs that did it correctly in a certain area. This tome farming is akin to heroic badge farming bullsh*t.

The story is very weak in 14 and you can tell it was extremely rushed. This would be one of my only complaints. When I beat the final boss, I was like, "So...what? That's it? I'm supposed to feel something now?" Even when Livia showed up for her fight, it was such a let down. She murdered many of your friends and colleagues. She could have been so much more but they reduced her to some lame farmable boss mechanic. It's really disappointing. My hope is that they rushed it to get 14 out the door but will take their time with the next expansion.

Perhaps PVP will make things more varied. They definitely need some more content other than endgame.

Edited, Oct 9th 2013 12:22pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#6 Oct 09 2013 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I haven't felt this way mostly because I've taken my time.

I finally got to the point in the story where I went to Little Ala Mihgo last night. I was floored - this was the one place in all of Thanalan that they kept identical to 1.0 more or less. What's the first quest I click on called? "Blast from the Past." Even the trial Leve from the levemete there was a direct import from 1.0.

Nothing is stopping you from exploring. I went too far south and ended up oneshotted by an Amal'ja. I went poking around the area and found mobs I needed to kill from my hunting log.

I spent a grand total of three hours in the area last night, when if I had just done the story quest bit I would have been in and out in under an hour.

Don't get me wrong, I love XI, but XI has almost two hundred dead and empty zones now. The players are concentrated in about two dozen areas and the only time anyone ever does anything in the dead areas it's to run in, do a fight, and run out.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#7 Oct 09 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I haven't felt this way mostly because I've taken my time.


^ This. Later today I have to take my first trip to Mor Dhona for a crafting leve, and I'm excited to see the zone. I'm not one to rush to the end because the end isn't going anywhere, might as well enjoy the trip.
#8 Oct 09 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
*
197 posts
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

I'm not one to rush to the end because the end isn't going anywhere, might as well enjoy the trip.


This is how I feel also, even if I end up being a tier behind in raiding or whatever I know eventually Ill catch up, I also feel that the longer it takes me to get to end game, the more stuff there will be to do when I get there as far as content patches and what not, and any of the initial bugs will be worked out.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#9 Oct 09 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Jeskradha wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:

I'm not one to rush to the end because the end isn't going anywhere, might as well enjoy the trip.


This is how I feel also, even if I end up being a tier behind in raiding or whatever I know eventually Ill catch up, I also feel that the longer it takes me to get to end game, the more stuff there will be to do when I get there as far as content patches and what not, and any of the initial bugs will be worked out.


Like Cat was saying I have a ton of fun just poking around and finding interesting things. My GF plays and as this is her first MMO I told her to not rush, learn the game at your own pace. Her favorite activity is going to zones and taking screenshots. She loves the game for something as simple as seeing new places which is just awesome.
#10 Oct 09 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
***
2,214 posts
I actually am trying to take my time. I have been working on crafts that I haven't finished. Learning different dungeons, and I am going out of my way to build a Darksteel set rather than Darklight (I only have two pieces made so far, which should give a little context to how little I try and spam the end-game rinse and repeat quests). I also currently refuse to even bother fighting titan right now. And I am not sure if I will ever go back to AK.

I am still on the fence about the game, and I am just trying to see if others are actually playing this for more than getting relic and going to the Coil (and maybe because I am on a legacy server, or because of the people I play with are mostly interested in that).

I just don't know if I can do another Chimeria, Hydra, AK, CM, or Garuda fight. Or worse graduate to doing Titan. I actually never fought Garuda in 1.0, and stopped fighting Ifrit after my 20th or so win.

Maybe I just need to take a break and not be so cynical.
#11 Oct 09 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
rfolkker wrote:
I actually am trying to take my time. I have been working on crafts that I haven't finished. Learning different dungeons, and I am going out of my way to build a Darksteel set rather than Darklight (I only have two pieces made so far, which should give a little context to how little I try and spam the end-game rinse and repeat quests). I also currently refuse to even bother fighting titan right now. And I am not sure if I will ever go back to AK.

I am still on the fence about the game, and I am just trying to see if others are actually playing this for more than getting relic and going to the Coil (and maybe because I am on a legacy server, or because of the people I play with are mostly interested in that).

I just don't know if I can do another Chimeria, Hydra, AK, CM, or Garuda fight. Or worse graduate to doing Titan. I actually never fought Garuda in 1.0, and stopped fighting Ifrit after my 20th or so win.

Maybe I just need to take a break and not be so cynical.


Sounds like you're burnt out on the endgame grind, which is completely understandable.
#12 Oct 09 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
*
197 posts
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
She loves the game for something as simple as seeing new places which is just awesome.


That is awesome, when I first started playing WoW back during vanilla I used to do this all the time, like running into a new zone and finding some abandon ruins are something and just thinking how awesome it looked. Its one thing I really like about this game is just the environments.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#13 Oct 09 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
*****
12,824 posts
Jeskradha wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
She loves the game for something as simple as seeing new places which is just awesome.


That is awesome, when I first started playing WoW back during vanilla I used to do this all the time, like running into a new zone and finding some abandon ruins are something and just thinking how awesome it looked. Its one thing I really like about this game is just the environments.


Actually tonight I got to experience them by proxy once I resolved my fiancee's issues. She hadn't been seeing a number of transparent effects or background environmental touches like the grass blowing in the wind or the sheets of rain on the coast. Her voice was just full of wonder at all the hundreds of little details ("My dress is blowing in the wind!"), or even just the particle effects from her own spells.

We often take for granted just how well done it all is, always awesome to be reminded that hard work went into fleshing out the world we virtually inhabit.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 12:36am by Pawkeshup
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#14 Oct 09 2013 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
She loves the game for something as simple as seeing new places which is just awesome.


That is awesome, when I first started playing WoW back during vanilla I used to do this all the time, like running into a new zone and finding some abandon ruins are something and just thinking how awesome it looked. Its one thing I really like about this game is just the environments.


Actually tonight I got to experience them by proxy once I resolved my fiancee's issues. She hadn't been seeing a number of transparent effects or background environmental touches like the grass blowing in the wind or the sheets of rain on the coast. Her voice was just full of wonder at all the hundreds of little details ("My dress is blowing in the wind!"), or even just the particle effects from her own spells.

We often take for granted just how well done it all is, always awesome to be reminded that hard work went into fleshing out the world we virtually inhabit.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 12:36am by Pawkeshup


Tonight my GF asked me to make a new fishing rod for her. When I went to deliver I found her in Aleport staring at the sea wall. She was amazed by the way the waves looked when they hit :)
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 54 All times are in CST
Callinon, Lyrailis, Anonymous Guests (52)