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So I wanted to be a tankFollow

#1 Oct 09 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Short story long, I wanted to complete my main as an "Archmage," that is all DoMs to 50. But in order to prepare for this, I wanted to get the cross-class ability "Quelling Strikes" from Archer (which would be useful on Black Mage and better than nothing on Summoner). But that's a level 36 ability, so I'd be at Archer for some time. There was a nifty ability on Marauder called, "Mercy Stroke" that would make the leveling experience all the more enjoyable. But that was a level 26 ability. Which meant that this was the perfect opportunity to try tanking.

My first try in Sastasha was miserable. It's one thing to "know" what to do, but when faced with actually doing it, it's pretty darn stressful. I marked targets, but unfortunately, the group I went with couldn't care less. I was with an archer who just shot at whatever he felt like, even pulling the next group mid-fight. It meant the poor healer got pounded on a lot because I couldn't establish hate properly with what few moves I had to work with, and I really wasn't comfortable with pacing their use to begin with. Even on the final boss, I died right away because the healer didn't heal me at all for some reason, but they still won without me. I felt pretty superfluous.

But that didn't deter me and I resorted to watching a few Youtube videos on how to tank so I could improve my technique. Subsequent runs went a lot better, especially after running through a few times so that you knew exactly what to expect. The nice thing is, there was never any wait. I'd be shocked if more than a few seconds went by without the DF granting access. Needless to say, friends were grateful to tag along if they were at all interested in crawling a dungeon just because getting in was so instant.

I did have to be a "diva tank" once when a summoner I PUGed with in the level 16 dungeon insisted on using topaz carbuncle, and was pulling whenever and whatever he felt like as though it was his role to tank. He had the nerve to complain he was doing it because the pace was too slow, ironically not getting it that it was slow because he was tanking instead of damage dealing like he should have been. In any case, I wasn't there to play backup tank to some stuck up summoner's carbuncle so after a few awkward combat sessions where hate was flying all over the place, I said I'd leave if he didn't stop it, and he replied he wasn't going to stop it. So I left. Ha! [/diva] I'd be shocked if they didn't make it without me, which is probably why no one cared, but I wanted to learn to tank **** it, and all I'd learn in that group was how to do it wrong.

Thankfully, I've never experienced any bad healers. And most of the damage dealers were all to happy to follow the lead. But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.

I haven't found a good way, yet, to get through to people when they start doing this. I've asked them to stop. I've explained why they shouldn't. But they just get defensive, or worse, try to get revenge and sabotage the group. I don't want to get all "respect my authroitay" on them, it's just, the best way through the experience is with the tank grabbing the hate first and what they want to is inefficient and disruptive.

But, I did get Mercy Stroke, and it was awesome on Archer while it lasted. It's a shame I couldn't keep it on Bard, but I'm 3 levels away from Quelling Strikes. And then the quest for Archmage begins! But you know, after the experience, I may just pursue a new character devoted to tanking, after all.
#2 Oct 09 2013 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Carbuncle tanking doesn't work for long... So that Arcanist is asking for it. A few more dungeons in, he will have learned a whole list of bad tricks he then has to unlearn... while getting less chances because his queue is longer as a DPS than it is for a tank.

Somewhere in the later 20s I think, the dungeons stop coddling people. I've been told it was Huakke Manor, but I found that easy. Then again our group was coordinated. I think what they do first is start hitting harder and harder, ramping it up... and then by Sunken Temple they're also adding in special mechanics and split up duties for people...

Sastasha though - yeah... tank is kind of optional there. I'm not fond of that, but I guess its needed these days as a 'weeding off of WoW' moment. I remember back when even the level 15 dungeon in WoW required tactics and solid tanking... But that hasn't been the case since about 2007/8...
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#3 Oct 09 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.


This is why many tanks by 50 are "control freaks" and "Primadonnas". It is the main reason I try to not use the DF.
#4 Oct 09 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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DMRosso wrote:
Quote:
But I noticed if you make it seem like things are running too smoothly, some of them start to get cocky. They'll run ahead and pull things and expect everyone else to clean their mess, and when they do, they only grow bolder. That just gets annoying because they think they're speeding things up, but they're really just dragging things out more as mobs go running all over the place out of control and putting all the strain on the healer.


This is why many tanks by 50 are "control freaks" and "Primadonnas". It is the main reason I try to not use the DF.


Just my opinion but tanks more or less should be control freaks. I'm more than happy to guide a new tank through a dungeon I may perhaps sleepwalk through but I do my best to 'let them run the show'. Trying to upstage in a pt is like trying to show everyone your own accolades at someone else's award party. Tanks that are allowed to learn and grow make future play better for everyone.
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#5 Oct 09 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Default
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Xoie wrote:
I haven't found a good way, yet, to get through to people when they start doing this. I've asked them to stop. I've explained why they shouldn't. But they just get defensive, or worse, try to get revenge and sabotage the group. I don't want to get all "respect my authroitay" on them, it's just, the best way through the experience is with the tank grabbing the hate first and what they want to is inefficient and disruptive.


It's just something you pick up after experience. Pulling aggro and keeping it isn't something that's very difficult to do and marking mobs is largely useless unless there is a specific target needed to be slept or otherwise CC'd.

It's easier if people let you have time to get aggro in the early levels when you're still learning, but it's not even really necessary in lower levels. If you can't pull and keep aggro in mid levels it's probably time to reassess your rotation or think about a career change.
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#6 Oct 10 2013 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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There is also something that I found interesting when I got my PLD relic and started tanking to have faster queues. I've always been considerate, so I pride myself on "fine play."

It's interesting how many mages cast on you directly when you move to aggro range. It's like they couldn't do it soon as they know the mob dies, (Like I do when I cure) or wait till after hate is established. They cast regen or stone skin right when you aggro, having you run around gathering stuff while trying to get hate on the one the dps are attacking.

Dps that attack any random monsters. Nuff said.

I've seen several Tank drama queens, and now that I've experienced the frustration first hand, I have to say I understand.

Am I the only person that Stone skins right when a mob dies and right after the mobs start hitting so I cure less, while lessening the risk of pulling hate later?

Cure spam and then saying, well tank better.

When ever I see a frustrated tank from now on, I'll simply understand and move on. You want to tank? Go for it.
#8 Oct 10 2013 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Hate to say it, but threat is very gimmicky at 50 on a fresh tank.

This morning I was in AK. I have 'ok' gear for that place: full hoplite and DL leggings with Ifrit's weapon and meh shield with some DL accessories. It was with a group from Balmung (legacy server I think?). They had a BLM with a relic and vanya stuff, a BRD with Ifrit's bow, and a WHM with relic.

I think they were trying to speed run but it was obvious that their methods weren't working. I always had regen popped on me as I went to pull instead of stoneskin like any intelligent healer knows to do by this point.The bard would attack any target and run away from me. In fact, all three (yes, the WHM was DPSing) would begin DPSing as soon as I got within range to scorn > flash: not even giving me time to group up the mobs so I could establish threat.

The BLM didn't use sleep. The WHM didn't use sleep. Neither the BRD or BLM used quelling strikes: ever. It was like they were purposefully trying to drive the tank crazy or push their limits. Or maybe they were just bored of the instance? I don't know but if I had been another person that didn't have a main job that wasn't a tank, I wouldn't have been happy with that dungeon.

I don't think many WHMs realize how much threat reduction they can gain by using repose on mobs that are currently not marked. You think it would be simple: tank is getting hit for less damage because mobs are being slept, mobs that are slept are being hit by non-damaging flash meaning they're already stuck to the PLD with scorn DoT ticking on them if it was done initially...really not a hard concept I think.

Eventually it got down to where the BRD would pull and he'd pull 2~3 groups. I'd have to pop hallowed ground just to stay alive and I couldn't get aggro off the WHM spamming medica 2. So I'd have a marked target that would get ignored. The WHM would DPS another mob while the BLM would spam AoE or focus another non-marked mob. Essentially, you're fighting with 3 other people for aggro on 3 different mobs which is just a nightmare given the ramp-up time for combo due to GCD limitations.

If they maybe added +enmity abilities onto these cooldowns like rampart and sentinel, it would be better. Or, increase the enmity generation for flash/scorn. Or get rid of GCD for fast blade and possibly savage blade. Or maybe make provoke function differently.

I don't know but tanking for people like this isn't really my idea of fun. I'm pretty much just gearing tank to take to events where my FC needs a tank maybe instead of my BLM. I think I'll stay away from DF for a while.

Luckily, server groups have been pretty good when it comes to tanking so there's that. DF just brings out the worst in everyone.
#9 Oct 10 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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GDLYL wrote:
They cast regen or stone skin right when you aggro, having you run around gathering stuff while trying to get hate on the one the dps are attacking.


HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I think they were trying to speed run but it was obvious that their methods weren't working. I always had regen popped on me as I went to pull instead of stoneskin like any intelligent healer knows to do by this point.


I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.

Also, on the subject of sleeping foes, it also depends on the tank's style. As a tank, you can use Flash on sleeping mobs, and you totally should just to have a grip on them when they wake up (especially if someone accidentally wakes one) or at least just have them on your enemy list so you can see if you still have their attention. Otherwise they'll just beeline to whomever slept them. Sometime I avoid crowd control as a healer because I think some tanks don't realize they can hold hate on a slept mob, and it's easier for me to heal the tank who's getting pounded by everything than try to deal with 2 or 3 mobs jumping down my throat at once when they wake from sleeping and everyone else has totally forgotten about them.
#10 Oct 10 2013 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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There's also the issue too of brain dead DDs ignoring the tank's number markers and waking up your slept mobs.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 2:06pm by Catwho
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#11 Oct 10 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

This morning I was in AK. I have 'ok' gear for that place: full hoplite and DL leggings with Ifrit's weapon and meh shield with some DL accessories. It was with a group from Balmung (legacy server I think?). They had a BLM with a relic and vanya stuff, a BRD with Ifrit's bow, and a WHM with relic.
.


sounds like speedrun without letting tank know first. classy.
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#12 Oct 10 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.


I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.

Quote:
Also, on the subject of sleeping foes, it also depends on the tank's style. As a tank, you can use Flash on sleeping mobs, and you totally should just to have a grip on them when they wake up (especially if someone accidentally wakes one) or at least just have them on your enemy list so you can see if you still have their attention. Otherwise they'll just beeline to whomever slept them. Sometime I avoid crowd control as a healer because I think some tanks don't realize they can hold hate on a slept mob, and it's easier for me to heal the tank who's getting pounded by everything than try to deal with 2 or 3 mobs jumping down my throat at once when they wake from sleeping and everyone else has totally forgotten about them.


We are having a similar discussion over in the Arcanist class forums. As I have not yet played the tank classes yet in FFXIV, but was a career PLD in FFXI I have a question: Is there any reason not to use flash on a consistent basis?

I would think that a tank should always be using flash whenever there is more than one mob to build enmity on. Whether they are asleep or not, whether the other DPS are building threat or not - use flash!

It is especially important for SMNs using Bane. I can knock out a significant portion of a mobs life, all while it is asleep - all you need to do is keep using flash to stay ahead of me on the threat meter. Then, by the time we get to wake up the last mob in a group of three, i have already DoT'd about 20-25% of its HP away and build up a ton of threat.

Edit: P.S. How do you get the person's name to show up in the quote box? Mine just says "Quote" whereas when I see other people quoting posts, the name of the person being quoted shows up in the top left corner.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 3:32pm by Canadensis
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#13 Oct 10 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Canadensis wrote:
Quote:
I do have some insight on this. It doesn't matter when Stoneskin is cast (it will last 30 minutes if you leave it), it's pretty much a walking Provoke sign to the person who cast it. So when I've cast Stoneskin on a tank as a healer, if they don't Flash right away, the mobs they didn't claim will automatically direct their hate at me and run my way. So it really depends on the tank's style. If they don't normally work on the crowd's hate immediately, they'll end up chasing mobs around. So I've actually let up on casting Stoneskin on the tank for mere trash mobs and left it for single target foes instead just so the crowd control is a bit easier to manage.


I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.


It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.
#14 Oct 10 2013 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.


Are you sure about that? Something just doesn't seem right. I will have to play around with it. Not saying you are wrong, it just hasn't been my experience.

Before the tank initiates the pull, he is not on the hate list of any of the mobs. You casting stoneskin (or any spell for that matter) on the tank when he is not on any mob's hate list, should not generate any hate on the healer. Especially if you do this 5 minutes before the pull (or 29 as per your example) there should be no reason for the secondary/tertiary mobs to instantly target the healer when the main target is pulled.

Again, I could be off and would need to see it in action. If what you are describing is actually the case I might even go so far as to call it a bug and report it to SE.
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#15 Oct 10 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
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Wow I see some healer hate going on.. First off throwing a heal/stoneskin/regen or anything on the tank is not good as he first goes to engage, it pulls hate and initial hate is bad. Problem is allot of tanks dont wait either.. **** I have done some dungeons where everyone is off and running before I put up protect...

How many tank watch to see where the healer even is or dd's watch the healer.. I have dd's like archers asking for a heal and they are way out of range.... How many watch how much mana the healer has before engaging.. One thing this game VS FFXI everyone seems to be in much more of a rush in dungeons. Very little coordination. For some of us this is our first time through these dungeons and they are more complex than a bcnm...

Also WHM sleeping is not usually a good thing, it pulls massive hate, when that mob wakes up who they coming after, at least in FFXI? It also takes time that a healer may not have...
I also dont know how many times I have tried to sleep something that had dia or bio on it in FFXI... ugg...

I have not been in a situation yet to sleep in FFXIV but I am guessing it is the same in this game.. When it is like two mobs it aint so bad but multiple makes it tough..It can be useful in certain situations too but usually is best left up to someone else.


Edited, Oct 10th 2013 4:33pm by Nashred
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#16 Oct 10 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Default
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Canadensis wrote:
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It's not the same point. It doesn't matter if Stoneskin was cast 29 milliseconds before the pull or 29 minutes before the pull, the person who cast Stoneskin on the puller will have the initial hate of the links in a pull if they are anywhere in the vicinity. The timing has nothing to do with it.


Are you sure about that? Something just doesn't seem right. I will have to play around with it. Not saying you are wrong, it just hasn't been my experience.


I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.
#17 Oct 10 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:

I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.


I seem to remember that regen does the same thing. Could the mechanism be the same?
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#18 Oct 10 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Canadensis wrote:
Edit: P.S. How do you get the person's name to show up in the quote box? Mine just says "Quote" whereas when I see other people quoting posts, the name of the person being quoted shows up in the top left corner.
Click the "Quote" checkbox if using the Quick Reply, or "Quote Original" in either post method.

Or type it in afterward, [quote= Canadensis], without the space.
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#19 Oct 10 2013 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
I'm sure of it. In the Stone Vigil, for example, if you Stoneskin the tank as the healer, and the tank runs into the Ice Sprites that appear out of nowhere, they'll immediately go after the healer even though the healer hasn't done anything and wasn't the one who triggered them. It's because Stoneskin has redirected their hate to the caster.


Hmmm... This is interesting. I don't play healer a whole lot so I haven't really noticed this. Good to know though for those times when I am asked to go SCH over SMN. I assume this applies also to groups of mobs that spawn when the dungeon begins (i.e. do not have a spawn after a certain trigger)?

Edit: Thanks Kirby, got it to work Smiley: smile

Anyone have a response to the other question I posed about Tanks and flashing slept mobs?

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 6:18pm by Canadensis
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#20 Oct 10 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Default
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Good lord that's a lot of misinformation.

Stoneskin cast, pre-pull, does NOT generate any threat on the mage who cast it.

Let me emphasize:

Stoneskin cast, pre-pull, does NOT generate any threat on the mage who cast it.

By all means, please test it.

This was done pre-pull:

http://i.imgur.com/K1CfQiS.jpg

This was what happened when pulling with provoke without shield oath on. Due to how provoke works, it basically is the same as face pulling so no threat was generated:

http://i.imgur.com/ysMHJH2.jpg

So then I smacked the mob and had Aleksis cast regen on me:

http://i.imgur.com/HkZYbTX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YAaszDD.jpg

First tick = Aleksis is tank.

Again, stoneskin does not generate enmity if cast pre-pull. Regen clearly does.

Stoneskin cast DURING the pull definitely generates enmity. Sleeping mobs allows the tank to take less damage, allowing you to cure the tank less, allowing you to generate less enmity as a result, and is generally better TPS for the tank since he doesn't need to constantly switch targets.

If your tank does not flash the slept mobs, though, I wouldn't even bother.
#21 Oct 10 2013 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Good lord that's a lot of misinformation.

Stoneskin cast, pre-pull, does NOT generate any threat on the mage who cast it.

Let me emphasize:

Stoneskin cast, pre-pull, does NOT generate any threat on the mage who cast it.

By all means, please test it.

This was done pre-pull:

http://i.imgur.com/K1CfQiS.jpg

This was what happened when pulling with provoke without shield oath on. Due to how provoke works, it basically is the same as face pulling so no threat was generated:

http://i.imgur.com/ysMHJH2.jpg

So then I smacked the mob and had Aleksis cast regen on me:

http://i.imgur.com/HkZYbTX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YAaszDD.jpg

First tick = Aleksis is tank.

Again, stoneskin does not generate enmity if cast pre-pull. Regen clearly does.

Stoneskin cast DURING the pull definitely generates enmity. Sleeping mobs allows the tank to take less damage, allowing you to cure the tank less, allowing you to generate less enmity as a result, and is generally better TPS for the tank since he doesn't need to constantly switch targets.

If your tank does not flash the slept mobs, though, I wouldn't even bother.


Your test doesn't demonstrate what I'm talking about. Try it again but in a dungeon. Watch what happens to the links.
#22 Oct 10 2013 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Ok so I'm going to be pretty blunt. I do a lot of research and testing on the classes/jobs I play because I take a lot of interest in doing my job well.

Can you please show the same interest in your job and do these tests? It would actually be an awesome post to stick in the WHM/CNJ/SCH forums.

That way you can come back here and be all like, "Hey Hitome McNubcake! Look what I have here. Suck it!"

*rubs your results in my face*

Otherwise, I'm just going to generalize and say...if stoneskin didn't pull threat on a single mob, it probably isn't going to on multiple. :3 Or, I could do the test and come back and rub mine all in your face. Or just use anecdotal evidence until you get off your **** and do it!

http://i.imgur.com/w5M3hBN.jpg

Either way, something is getting rubbed in someone's face.

Edit: Though if you want to be all like, "Burden of proof, Nubtome" I'll gladly run the test for you after I get out of BC.

Edited, Oct 10th 2013 9:05pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#23 Oct 10 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Wow I see some healer hate going on.. First off throwing a heal/stoneskin/regen or anything on the tank is not good as he first goes to engage, it pulls hate and initial hate is bad. Problem is allot of tanks dont wait either.. **** I have done some dungeons where everyone is off and running before I put up protect...

How many tank watch to see where the healer even is or dd's watch the healer.. I have dd's like archers asking for a heal and they are way out of range.... How many watch how much mana the healer has before engaging.. One thing this game VS FFXI everyone seems to be in much more of a rush in dungeons. Very little coordination. For some of us this is our first time through these dungeons and they are more complex than a bcnm...

Also WHM sleeping is not usually a good thing, it pulls massive hate, when that mob wakes up who they coming after, at least in FFXI? It also takes time that a healer may not have...
I also dont know how many times I have tried to sleep something that had dia or bio on it in FFXI... ugg...

I have not been in a situation yet to sleep in FFXIV but I am guessing it is the same in this game.. When it is like two mobs it aint so bad but multiple makes it tough..It can be useful in certain situations too but usually is best left up to someone else.


Edited, Oct 10th 2013 4:33pm by Nashred


As it so happens, your guess turns out to be completely wrong. Sleep pulls barely any hate in XIV, and since XIV has a lot more fights against many weaker mobs, it can be one of the most effective forms of damage mitigation to shut a few of them down completely for a bit. In general, sleep is significantly more usable in this game, especially since it doesn't have a cooldown other than the global cooldown.

You're right that it's even better to have a thm/blm cast it, but if you don't have one in your group, don't count it out as a whm.
Oh, DoT effect don't prevent sleep in XIV either, btw.
#24 Oct 10 2013 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think I had the wrong idea about Stoneskin. It seems the links only attacked the caster if it was cast after the pull had started, in which case the whole crew other than the original pull would charge. This must have been what I was thinking of. But if you do cast outside of combat, there doesn't seem to be any hate whatsoever, not even a mention on the enemy list.

For the sin of being wrong on Zam, I will accept my punishment of being down-rated on every post I've made in this thread, as is the customary flogging. Smiley: blush
#25 Oct 10 2013 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meh, you admitted your mistake. A lot of people don't.
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#26 Oct 10 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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Canadensis wrote:


I think that is the same point the above posters were making. If Stoneskin is cast at the wrong moment (when the tank initially pulls the group but has not yet established enmity on all of them) it makes the tank's life a lot harder. it is best to either cast stoneskin before the pull is initiated, or after the enmity is established.


As a healer my experiencevwith this is that my tank likes to start running towards the next group while I am in the middle of casting stoneskin or adloq or succor or protect, or else I cast them immediately and then he stands with his thumb up his **** while a 30 second adloq is counting down and only runs in when it's at 1 or 2 seconds left, so it falls off right before he takes any hits.

I know as a healer that having a damage shield land on a tank just as he has drawn aggro but before he has built up actual enmity is bad, but there's some disconnect with tanks who think those spells cast instantly and don't provide any window between my mp hitting 100% and pulling for pre buffs. It is possible that this is why a tank notices stoneskin landing at exactly the wrong time.










Edited, Oct 11th 2013 1:37am by KarlHungis
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#27 Oct 11 2013 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
I think I had the wrong idea about Stoneskin. It seems the links only attacked the caster if it was cast after the pull had started, in which case the whole crew other than the original pull would charge. This must have been what I was thinking of. But if you do cast outside of combat, there doesn't seem to be any hate whatsoever, not even a mention on the enemy list.

For the sin of being wrong on Zam, I will accept my punishment of being down-rated on every post I've made in this thread, as is the customary flogging. Smiley: blush


It's honestly better to think you're right, do the research, and post findings than to stubbornly say you're right and leave it at that. And it takes a mature person to admit they're wrong (hint: not me). You should post your findings on the WHM/CNJ/SCH forums.

They're very barren...but better than the monk forums. :X
#28 Oct 11 2013 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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My previous comment wasn't meant as a 'You're bad, find another job' comment. There are a few small adjustments you can make that you might be overlooking and I simply wanted to point that out. I just go into DF with the mindset that it's going to be a bit chaotic regardless. Maybe I'm crazy, but I actually found members spamming AoE or trying to tank in my stead to be a much needed challenge element added to early instances. Not trying to sound like a badass either, but the experience I have had in other MMOs leads me to think of uses for spells and abilities that other people might overlook or might not use efficiently.

A few things that not a lot of people take advantage of is closing combos on secondary targets or even moving on to secondary targets before the first one dies. If you have a combo that has the effect of additional enmity for example, you can 'open' the combo on your primary target(dealing damage and maintaining aggro after the initial pull) and then 'close' it on another target to shore up aggro to offset group members using AoE or incoming heals. Unless it was changed recently, the closer will still have the added effect as long as your opener didn't miss. Once you have sufficient aggro on the primary kill target, move on to the secondary. Your damage isn't really all that important and the only thing you may need to switch back for is an interrupt.

You should also be using the target of target button frequently, especially if you're losing hate. Simply select the member of your group who is taking damage, press the target of target key(T by default I think, but I have it bound elsewhere) to quickly locate the stray mob and use whatever necessary spells or abilities to recover hate. That's probably the fastest way to identify the target of a party member who isn't attacking you.

Remember that it can be used on mobs as well. Quick example:

x> O> <v <v (where you are the x, the mob is O and your group memebers are v, > and < are facing direction)

It might be hard to identify which group member pulled hate if the mob turns around to attack one of them. No sweat. Hit the target of target button and pop cover and/or fire off a preemptive heal. Different classes will have different tools to fit the occasion, just pick whatever works best for your class. Your healer is none the wiser and you have aggro back before your group member can even type 'QQ' Smiley: sly

It will depend on the class you play, but generally if your support classes are leveled up then you will have all the tools you need. It's just a matter of understanding how they all work and selecting the right spell or ability.
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#29 Oct 11 2013 at 5:02 AM Rating: Default
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So any idea why in the baby dungeons DD roles are now completely ignoring tank marks and fighting whatever the **** they want? Is this a case of not enough tanks marking so people have no clue what the **** those big numbers mean or are people just dumb now?
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#30 Oct 11 2013 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
snip


Sounds like you just had some douchebags Hitome.

Also, for what it's worth, PLD has more issues with many of the pulls in AK than WAR does, on account of the lack of scaling on Flash. Flash is great for corraling mobs and getting initial aggro, but once the damage starts flying Overpower and Steel Cyclone are just better at keeping up.

PLD could use some extra aggro on Circle of Scorn, given that it's a 30s CD ability I don't see that as an issue. I've also found that on 2-3 mobs you can Fast Blade one, Savage Blade the second, and then Rage of Halone the main target. Swap the FB and SB target's each time, with RoH on the main target. This will usually keep aggro, even if they're splitting DPS. Unless all three members are attacking a different target, at which point you sheathe your weapon, start dancing, and let them deal with it, because clearly that group sucks *** and deserves to die.
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#31 Oct 11 2013 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
I think I had the wrong idea about Stoneskin. It seems the links only attacked the caster if it was cast after the pull had started, in which case the whole crew other than the original pull would charge. This must have been what I was thinking of. But if you do cast outside of combat, there doesn't seem to be any hate whatsoever, not even a mention on the enemy list.


OK, this is what I was trying to suggest before about the tank not even being on any of the mobs' hate lists, so no matter which spell you cast on him, you shouldn't have any hate generated on the healer pre-pull. I'm glad that after some further discussion we were able to clarify that this is the case. What you had been suggesting just didn't seem to make sense to me, but I did not have the opportunity to test it myself.

Thanks Hitome and Xoie for the good discussion and testing the results.
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#32 Oct 11 2013 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Whoa! - triple post even....

Edited, Oct 11th 2013 7:56am by Canadensis
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#33 Oct 11 2013 at 5:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmm... double post - sorry.

Edited, Oct 11th 2013 7:55am by Canadensis
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#34 Oct 11 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Refews wrote:
So any idea why in the baby dungeons DD roles are now completely ignoring tank marks and fighting whatever the **** they want? Is this a case of not enough tanks marking so people have no clue what the **** those big numbers mean or are people just dumb now?


Because it doesn't really matter? Mobs in those dungeons don't really hit you for any less than they'd hit a tank for. I wouldn't say they're dumb, just impatient. Marking mobs doesn't really take all that long, but dungeons are a loss when it comes to exp when compared to fates so people just want to rush through to finish quests or storylines.
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#35 Oct 15 2013 at 4:34 AM Rating: Decent
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kichwas wrote:
Carbuncle tanking doesn't work for long... So that Arcanist is asking for it. A few more dungeons in, he will have learned a whole list of bad tricks he then has to unlearn... while getting less chances because his queue is longer as a DPS than it is for a tank.

Somewhere in the later 20s I think, the dungeons stop coddling people. I've been told it was Huakke Manor, but I found that easy. Then again our group was coordinated. I think what they do first is start hitting harder and harder, ramping it up... and then by Sunken Temple they're also adding in special mechanics and split up duties for people...

Sastasha though - yeah... tank is kind of optional there. I'm not fond of that, but I guess its needed these days as a 'weeding off of WoW' moment. I remember back when even the level 15 dungeon in WoW required tactics and solid tanking... But that hasn't been the case since about 2007/8...


I felt it wasn't until Brayflox that the party really, truly needs to start working together instead of as four separate people lumped together. Even Haukke you can wing it with your tank lying in a bloody puddle on the floor, as our healer was sh*te for the run I did during story missions. IMO, Brayflox is way too far into the meat of the game for folks to finally be learning how to run as a group.

Pre-launch, I had the impression, based on how they describe them in-game, that guildhests were supposed to teach coordination and tactics, but only three of them really do that, none of which are 1-25.

Edited, Oct 15th 2013 3:38am by Dallie
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#36 Oct 15 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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A good healer and tank combo can still carry a Brayflox party.

Sunken Temple is the first dungeon (which is also optional and harder than the ones that follow) where a tank/healer can't carry bad DPS to victory because the Final Sting mechanic forces DPS to pay attention. Having to remove doom and kill bees at the same time is the first time DPS really have to use their brain. Ignore kill order and bees and the tank can easily get 1-shot if it doesn't stun. It seems that without fail a pug member will die to doom because it gets tunnel vision. I did one DF pug where I explained the Doom mechanic and bees before the pull and sure enough all three other party members died on the first doom.

Temple is the first dungeon after 34 (where most classes get nice cross class abilities) so the increase in difficulty makes sense to me. It is a DF killer if DPS sucks and I like it for that reason. It's nice to have mechanics that DPS can't sleep through.

Edited, Oct 15th 2013 12:50pm by KingoGoodbomber
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