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SMN can't "Need" on grimoires that are aimed at SCH?Follow

#1 Oct 13 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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The Ars Notoria dropped today in Stone Vigil, but I lost the lot because I could only "Greed" as a SMN. This is a bit an annoying, as I usually play SCH, but we already had a healer participating in the run.

I don't see any reason to limit SMN or SCH in this way, as a lot of people switch between the two is the need arises. It goes against the flexibility of ACN if I have to pick a role and stick with it...

Edit: It's not that big a deal because the book would get replaced soon enough. This is more of a rant/PSA.

Edited, Oct 13th 2013 5:34pm by Pickins
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#2 Oct 13 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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That would open things up for a lot of abuse.

SMN doesn't need MND. SCH doesn't need INT. Both are nice, for the "off" role you can play (off-healing as a SMN, off-dps as a SCH) but that's not the main focus.

Hence the limitation. Besides, saying "Oh, but I want X item just in case" opens up a whole can of worms about what people should and should not be need rolling on. Anyone could technically need on anything because we could all technically have a class that needs it. That's why in DF you're restricted to the class you came on. Simplifies things a lot more.
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#3 Oct 13 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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I feel your pain, but it's really not much differen't than someone playing a job to help their friends and the item for their normal job pops... if you don't have a full set of friends... it's gonna get needed.
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#4 Oct 13 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe I just think ACN is a bit different because it has 2 associated jobs. I'm not saying that I should be able to roll on a THM weapon, but if I have SMN at 41, it's almost guaranteed I have SCH at 41.

I can see how they should be separated at endgame, but not at mid-levels, IMO.
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#5 Oct 13 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Perrin wrote:
I feel your pain, but it's really not much differen't than someone playing a job to help their friends and the item for their normal job pops... if you don't have a full set of friends... it's gonna get needed.


Funny you say that, I was with a group of friends and nobody realized I couldn't need on it.
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#6Queen EmmanuellaLima, Posted: Oct 13 2013 at 3:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you could not greed it, it means you already have it.
#7 Oct 13 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
If you could not greed it, it means you already have it.

They were able to greed. They could not need.
#8 Oct 13 2013 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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It would actually put SMN and SCH in kind of a bind if they could Need on each other's books. ACN is the only class that becomes two things, and because of that they have nearly all their gear in common. Every other job in the game gets exclusive rights to their own weapons. Only MNK can Need on fist weapons, only PLD can Need on swords, only ARC can Need on bows, etc. I think it's completely reasonable for SMN and SCH to have their own weapons that the other one can't have.

WHM and BLM seem to handle it just fine too.
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#9 Oct 13 2013 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thank goodness. If every time I partied with a smn while playing sch, they could roll on sch gear I would be completely disincentivized to play healer. It is lame to say you should be able to need "in case you want to play sch". I have most jobs at least lvl 35, by that logic I should be able to roll need on pretty much anything. I have the job leveled after all.

This is the argument that put job locks on duty finder. The restrictions make sense when you realize any player could potentially need anything without them. There has to be some reward in actually playing the job in a dungeon.
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#10Pickins, Posted: Oct 14 2013 at 1:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As they say, opinions are like a**holes
#11 Oct 14 2013 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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GalkaWen wrote:
I have most jobs at least lvl 35, by that logic I should be able to roll need on pretty much anything. I have the job leveled after all.


I have all lvl 50 I should be able to need everything... not.

It's funny, SCH weapon eventually does not even allow ACN to use them. And by that I don't mean Relic, the Unique ones is only equippable by SCH. You don't simply 'need' SCH weapon because you're an ACN.
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#12 Oct 14 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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That's weird because Sch and Smn can need on both versions of Ifrit and Garuda weapons.
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#13 Oct 14 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
That's weird because Sch and Smn can need on both versions of Ifrit and Garuda weapons.

Can't speak to Garuda since I haven't done it yet, but that's not true for Ifrit weapons. Ifrit's Grimoire dropped when I was on SCH, and I had to Greed it. I have yet to see a Codex drop -.-
#14 Oct 14 2013 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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Just to add to this discussion, I am not sure that this is a two-way street. SMN can't need in books geared towards SCH, but I am pretty sure SCH can need on books geared towards SMN.

A while back I was in a Haukke Manor run with a few FC mates, I was ACN at the time because I was only lvl29 but one of our members came as SCH. A pink book dropped that had no MND on it whatsoever. Not realizing it, both myself and the SCH rolled need on it. I lost the lot, and then the SCH realized there wasn't even any MND on it and apologized for taking the book. It is untradeable and there was no way to give the book to me (would have been a nice upgrade for me at the time).

Edit: oops reading Molly's post now makes me think each individual book probably has it's own rules for which classes are able to need.

Edited, Oct 14th 2013 10:07am by Canadensis
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#15 Oct 14 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Canadensis wrote:
A while back I was in a Haukke Manor run with a few FC mates, I was ACN at the time because I was only lvl29 but one of our members came as SCH. A pink book dropped that had no MND on it whatsoever. Not realizing it, both myself and the SCH rolled need on it. I lost the lot, and then the SCH realized there wasn't even any MND on it and apologized for taking the book. It is untradeable and there was no way to give the book to me (would have been a nice upgrade for me at the time).
Edited, Oct 14th 2013 10:07am by Canadensis

From what I recall, Stone Vigil is the first time ACN encounters the split between SMN and SCH. I've never seen the Haukke Manor weapon, but up until then, every book I had seen had both MND and INT on it. The books available on the Market Board also have both INT and MND up until level 50. At level 50, both the Deus Ex and Erudite's Picatrix books are specific to SMN or SCH. It is similar with armor. I didn't see much mage gear in SV, but I know the mage gear is split between healing and DPS in the Darkhold: Harlequin for healers, Coliseum for DPS. Healers, whether WHM or SCH, cannot Need on Coliseum gear, and BLMs and SMN cannot Need Harlequin gear. The Market Board armor starts splitting out around level 45 as well. The one exception I've seen so far is the Warlock's gear in Wanderer's Palace.

Basically, while SE gave ACN 2 choices of job, you are more or less forced to focus on just one by level 50 - just like everyone else.
#16 Oct 14 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Normally if you just ask the party if you could have a piece because you have that job, they'd be more than willing to comply really.

I havent met a single group who was really interested in any of the drops to the point where they'd fight you over it, often enough they get lost because people courteously click "Pass" when it's something for another job in the group or something they dont want themselves. Regardless of the person in the party on the job who could wear it already has one or not.

I mean, it's logical and all. If i'm on PLD and there's a BRD in the party and a piece of BRD gear drops, do i deserve it more because i came and tanked? Ofcourse not. Nor can you get upset if the BRD rolls a "Need" on it if he needs it himself. But at the very least you could ask the party if you can roll on it, or if they could not roll greed just to sell it for some seals because you would actually get some use out of it.

Try it, despite earlier signs, people really arent half as bad as you might think.

Edited, Oct 14th 2013 7:38pm by KojiroSoma
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#17 Oct 14 2013 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm in the habit of lotting Greed on everything because I hate seeing gear fall to the floor.

I've gotten some really nice things for other jobs that way.
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#18 Oct 14 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I'm in the habit of lotting Greed on everything because I hate seeing gear fall to the floor.

I've gotten some really nice things for other jobs that way.


Indeed. You should always Greed something you can't Need on (unless there's some pressing reason not to, such as trying to push an off-job piece to someone else). If nothing else, you get a handful of seals.

Remember too that most gear that's green quality or above is also flagged unique. Which means that even if someone else in your party can technically roll on the item, they can't if they already have it. Roll greed or it rots.
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#19 Oct 14 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Canadensis wrote:
Just to add to this discussion, I am not sure that this is a two-way street. SMN can't need in books geared towards SCH, but I am pretty sure SCH can need on books geared towards SMN.

Edited, Oct 14th 2013 10:07am by Canadensis


Yes, I know I've seen sch's need on smn books. It's an error I think.
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#20 Oct 15 2013 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Louiscool wrote:
That's weird because Sch and Smn can need on both versions of Ifrit and Garuda weapons.


Dunno what you're talkin' bout there LC....I've run both with SMN's several times who haven't been able to Need the SCH book, and vice versa with SCH.
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#21 Oct 15 2013 at 1:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, I agree some but today we did 10 Garuda farming runs. I was on SMN but I mostly use SCH for other things. 3 SCH weapons dropped out of the 10 fights and I could only greed. I didn't get one of them. Last one went to a SCH with a relic weapon. There needs to be something to help SCH/SMN out with this.
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#22 Oct 15 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you're doing it with a static group, and you didn't get a single SCH weapon (that you primarily use), I think you have something to talk about with the group before you start...
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