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#1 Oct 17 2013 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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This issue is still a plague on the community.

We took the full friggin 90 minutes to finish a simple Halatali run last night because we lost our first tank and one DPS to a 90K error on the first boss. Can't be helped - hopefully the patch today will fix it. They never came back.

So my friend and I hung around for around 15 minutes. We picked up a DPS right away, of course. It turned out to be his first run in the dungeon - and he'd only been playing the game a week.

The tank we got seemed nice enough at first, but he quickly grew frustrated with the newbie DPS, and abandoned us after the third wave of mobs. Instead of taking the time to explain how to play to someone who, judging from his gear, was still relatively new to the game, the tank just left. "Learn to play," he said, and was gone.

Another twenty minute wait, and we got another tank. During the downtime, my friend and I coached the newbie on hate management and his role as a DPS. When our third and final tank finally joined, we were down to fifteen minutes with two bosses to go. I told the new tank that our 2nd DPS was new and to please give him advice. The third and final tank, a true hero guy (he seriously was wearing armor that made him look like Iron Man), led us through those last two bosses without a problem.

TL;DR - Instead of calling someone a noob, if you're on a tank job in a low level dungeon, give someone some coaching. Don't be condescending, but explain how hate mechanics work. You'll end up with better DPS in thirty levels that way if you train 'em up early. If you just turn into a princess and leave mid-run, you're not making any friends and you're certainly not going to get better DPS in the long run.
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#2 Oct 17 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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You will see a lot of people act like this in MMOs. I am 30 years old and have started playing MMOs just before FFXI (played a month of Star Wars Galaxies). I have played Lineage 2 for half a year, WoW for over 6 years, tried Aion, TERA and a few others free to play.

I can say, without any doubts, that you will see that kind of attitude more and more. Why? Because of the cross server lfg/duty finder/matching systems. Since you can queue for a dungeon and play with people you will never see again, people think they can act like d1cks and that there will be no consequence (which is kind of true except for wasting a little bit of your playing time).

I don't know if you have played FFXI or WoW during the lvl 60 era, but people knew each other because everything was restricted to your server (instance/dungeons, raid, pvp, etc...). If you were a jerk, most of the people playing would know it and refuse to play with you. Hence why good players that were elitists were playing together, and the nice people (good and bad players) were playing together. It was the good old times of MMOs in my opinion because it created a lot more bonds, good or bad ones.

I'll use an example from WoW (one of the best MMO that ever existed in my opinion, but it's shining years are behind). When they introduced the PvP system, I gave it a shot to reach High Warlord (Rank 14). You had to pvp a lot and people would know about you. I was playing Horde and running my own PvP group to maximize time/reward. Some people from the Horde hated me because I wouldn't take them in my PvP group. People even made a "hate post" on the official server forum saying I was bad and some people claimed I was hacking (which was totally false).

My point is, there has always been jerks and a-holes, but the trend is there are more and more of these.

I play PLD in FFXIV. Just got to lvl 50 and did Praetorium yesterday. I got yelled at from people geared with Ifrit weapons and lvl 50 gear for not holding hate enough. I told them at the start of the run it was my first time and that I just reach lvl 50. When they complained, I told them I was doing my best and to give me advice instead of crying as crying never helps.

When I tank a dungeon I'm familiar with, I always ask at the start if anyone is new or doesn't remember the fights. If it's the case, I'll explain anything they need to know, either on trash mobs or boss. It takes a little bit of my time and makes the run a lot more enjoyable.

Don't get discouraged by a few jerks. Find good players, make new friends and enjoy the game. Remember, this is a game!
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#3 Oct 17 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, unfortunately tanks and healers tend to be prima donnas. It can be painful. Especially in the 8 man dungeons when you have two tanks (I have only tanked them personally), and one tank will not pick a role.

I can't tell you how many times I have had issues with going in to a CM boss fight where the adds tank or the main tank decides they can tank it all. Strip hate from me, and run around like an idiot, get the mages killed and cause a wipe. They then complain the party sucks, and leave.

There have been a few fights where people will get players watching cutscenes locked out of boss fights because they don't want to wait.

And of course healers love to just up and leave if someone gets aggro, which slows down the rate that they get there ToPs...

But, just remember there are still a few tanks that actually care more about having fun, and enjoying a game, rather than treating it like an exercise in efficiency training.
#4 Oct 17 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The 2 things duty finder needs:

Vote kick for afk/tards/trolls
A limit to the # of times you can leave (first). So a tank can only leave first 3 times a day after that they are struck there until someone else leaves first.


That said...im tired of 'nob' dd...specially archers who run in circles for the sake of always being moving...dont assist...and dont help with adds on a boss. Im not a princess tank on my pld/war but when i see bards jumping around in circles, no assisting i want to /vote kick them for wasting our time.
#5 Oct 17 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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I wish there was a vote kick in this game. It sends a message to the entire party that either someone is really ******** things up (and that person will hopefully do their homework to learn what they were doing wrong) or it will prove that the party is tolerant of the person and the person who is (perhaps a repeat offender) of starting votes is a princess and needs to learn to play well with others.

As it is, your only option when things aren't going right is to either disconnect or leave the dungeon. I don't think many people are learning what they need to learn (both sides of the coin) this way.
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#6 Oct 17 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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I would like to say there are "Princesses" in general for all classes. Sure, tanks and healers might be most frequent, but I had a horrible run yesterday with a DPS. He yelled at the ally in a Garuda run because two people were wearing their AFs. If their gear was the issue, then fine, make a comment. However, don't start yelling at everyone saying they are lazy and have no respect for the game. I was pretty bothered by it. I was trying to comment back at him, but he immediately made his *****-fest and then dropped. For all I know, maybe he is a Princess Tank/Healer and decided to come DPS that run.

As a main healer, I don't have that attitude. If anything, I'm always worried I'm not doing a good job and scared that I'm gonna get yelled at. I've had a tank yell at me for "attacking" an unmarked mob. I asked him that he was blind and should read his battle log to see what I'm doing. I was full curing and he wasn't holding group hate. During the battle, I was trying to sleep mobs that were all attacking me.
#7 Oct 17 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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TrenchTMK wrote:
I would like to say there are "Princesses" in general for all classes. Sure, tanks and healers might be most frequent, but I had a horrible run yesterday with a DPS. He yelled at the ally in a Garuda run because two people were wearing their AFs. If their gear was the issue, then fine, make a comment. However, don't start yelling at everyone saying they are lazy and have no respect for the game. I was pretty bothered by it. I was trying to comment back at him, but he immediately made his *****-fest and then dropped. For all I know, maybe he is a Princess Tank/Healer and decided to come DPS that run.

As a main healer, I don't have that attitude. If anything, I'm always worried I'm not doing a good job and scared that I'm gonna get yelled at. I've had a tank yell at me for "attacking" an unmarked mob. I asked him that he was blind and should read his battle log to see what I'm doing. I was full curing and he wasn't holding group hate. During the battle, I was trying to sleep mobs that were all attacking me.


For sure being a jerk isn't role-specific. But this is an attitude you will tend to see more from tanks and healers because of the sense of entitlement that comes from instant queues. The ones who espouse this attitude feel they can do so because the worst thing that happens is they just queue up again with no waiting time, whereas a DPS has to wait an hour to do the same.

It's definitely not ALL of any group. And gross generalizations are always wrong. But the tendency is towards tanks and healers who feel they have extra privilege to be a-holes because they can do so relatively consequence-free.
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#8 Oct 17 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with you Cat, it's the best way to get improved players down the road. However, some people have this "survival of fittest" mentality so it doesn't matter to them. These people you mention would rather cut their losses early and find a more capable player/party. I'm sure some people would probably agree with the tank's opinion on noob players, but the way I see it, the game is barely 30 days old. I think what worries me most is that FFXIV doesn't seem to have that great of a community, nothing like FFXI. The people who are willing to handhold you are few and far between. Elitists and jerks rule this game already. ***** up once on a hard fight with a PUG group like the Titan HM and you get the wrath of God out of people. They either drop and ***** you or they insult you and ruin the party's cohesion which later results in people dropping. There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.
#9 Oct 17 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.


Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level? I'm leveling some new classes and to be honest I'm having a blast in pre-50 instances. There's the occasional mute tunnel-vision player but that vast majority are nice, fun people.

On the other hand, every single instance I've run at level 50 has been a horrible nightmare, it almost made me rage-uninstall after a few days at 50.

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol
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#10 Oct 17 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.


Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level? I'm leveling some new classes and to be honest I'm having a blast in pre-50 instances. There's the occasional mute tunnel-vision player but that vast majority are nice, fun people.

On the other hand, every single instance I've run at level 50 has been a horrible nightmare, it almost made me rage-uninstall after a few days at 50.

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol

^^THIS^^

I literally can't stand endgame people. Which my gear selection has really helped me not walk away from this game. I am now trying to collect materia to meld to my heavy darksteel before continuing to titan. I just have ABSOLUTELY no interest in most of it (however, I am going to have fun doing CM/AK/WP in iLevel 55 gear, and watch people panic because I am not wearing "Best in Slot" gear as tank, and by have fun, I mean have to try to convince friends to do them).
#11 Oct 17 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.

Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level?

The joke in FFXI was the formula for instant butthead was just add level 75. But it's not that getting to level 75 somehow turned people into buttheads. Those people were buttheads before they got to level 75. They just became more vocal buttheads.
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#12 Oct 17 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.
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#13 Oct 17 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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My personal favorite are the tanks that tell people to uninstall when they get hit by a weight of the land (it happens, especially when they pile up and you get calculated as hit on the 2nd but not first in the pile) when they themselves got hit by every landslide in the first phase (pre jump) and almost got one shotted on the first buttpound.

I'm not talking about a main tank either, one of the unfortunate off tanks DF picks up lol.
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#14 Oct 17 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol


I really think this is 100% true, I'm still not level 50 and I'm really not in that much of a hurry to get there, in my opinion, hopefully a few months from now all the asshats (or at least the majority) will get bored and move on to something else, and all that will be left is people who are actually fans of FF and want to just play the game, not worry about some virtual epeen.
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#15 Oct 17 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've met nice people on all classes, complete jerks on all classes and incredibly gimp people on all classes.

It doesnt matter who's on what class. I've actually found people on healing jobs in general more kind than others, same for people on tank jobs playing them because they enjoy keeping others safe and dont mind shouldering a burden of responsibility. Only real problems i've had were with Damage Dealers. Not responsible enough to level something that actually contributes to the party, yet not reserved enough to keep from complaining endlessly if only a minor detail in the party is wrong.

Only due to queue times and what not, they dont simply disconnect if something is wrong, but instead anoy people endlessly in their current party untill someone else steps up and leaves.
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#16 Oct 17 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's to hoping that a year from now most of the jerks will have gotten their fill and moved on. A former co-worker of mine was the type of guy who would rush to endgame, grind it out, get bored and quit. On to the next game. Best-case scenario is a lot of jerks who are playing right now are like this. Worst-case scenario is we're seeing a new era in MMO gaming and the days of community have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Time will tell.
#17 Oct 17 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I tried. I really tried. However, I couldn't get past the title...

princess tanks
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#18 Oct 17 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.

I did this on my PLD from 15-22: hit Join Party in Progress every dungeon available. So I could learn the tanking role, especially through practice. It's fun because you get to feel like "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction. The businessman everyone knows to call when you need to clean up whatever bloody or otherwise illegal mess you've gotten yourself into.

You have a situation that's thirty minutes away? He'll be there in 10. (Poor Marvin.)
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#19 Oct 17 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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My 2 cents, more people might be jerks at 50 dungeons because you can actually lose at them. Pre 50 I don't think I lost one story dungeon or came close to time. But once you hit 50 and you have to keep running the same ones over and over and over when you que up in df for titan or ak and someone is in full af it's disheartening cuz you know your going to lose and if not lose spend a hour and a half in a 30 min dungeon.

I find biggest jerks to be the first timers who never let it be known to the group that they are new and don't know what to do and proceed to lose the fight for people or become a hindrance just because they didn't want to type I'm new or what's the game plane. And the ones that take offences when someone points out that with there gear they should run a different dungeon.



Ps. If your pug is having issues with weight and landslide pre heart you weren't going to win to begin with.
#20 Oct 17 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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My 2 cents, more people might be jerks at 50 dungeons because you can actually lose at them. Pre 50 I don't think I lost one story dungeon or came close to time. But once you hit 50 and you have to keep running the same ones over and over and over when you que up in df for titan or ak and someone is in full af it's disheartening cuz you know your going to lose and if not lose spend a hour and a half in a 30 min dungeon.


People lose at Brayflox's Longstop, Aurum Vale, and Stone Vigil all the time.
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#21 Oct 17 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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fatpolomanjr wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.

I did this on my PLD from 15-22: hit Join Party in Progress every dungeon available. So I could learn the tanking role, especially through practice. It's fun because you get to feel like "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction. The businessman everyone knows to call when you need to clean up whatever bloody or otherwise illegal mess you've gotten yourself into.

You have a situation that's thirty minutes away? He'll be there in 10. (Poor Marvin.)


You're sending the Wolf? SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*****************TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT N*gro that's all you had to say...


Love that movie
#22 Oct 17 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
TL;DR - Instead of calling someone a noob, if you're on a tank job in a low level dungeon, give someone some coaching. Don't be condescending, but explain how hate mechanics work. You'll end up with better DPS in thirty levels that way if you train 'em up early. If you just turn into a princess and leave mid-run, you're not making any friends and you're certainly not going to get better DPS in the long run.


Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).

The role isn't a hard role to fill. There are exceptional players no doubt, but not much is needed to be successful at your average XIV instance. I wouldn't say that people who show up unprepared deserve to be told "learn to play", but they should at least take up their own time and not waste that of others.

If a player asks me something specific about a mechanic and how I tank, I'll gladly offer an answer and even suggestions on what to do...

"Hey Filth, do you tank phase 2 against the wall or do you kite it? Where are the healers stacking for phase 3 so I can be in range for heals?"

These are legit questions that would get a straight answer.

"Hey Filth, I've never done this instance before. Tell me all the mechanics of the fight."

This just proves you don't care enough about not only your time, but mine too. I wouldn't say "l2p" and skip out. I'd probably say "AFK a few minutes while someone explains the fight". At best, you get a link to this.

I wouldn't have a problem with giving advice if it were a rare occurrence, but it's not. Far from it. Coaching and explaining encounters to people only encourages them to show up to the next dungeon unprepared. Essentially you're giving a man a fish. I just give them the link above and they can feed themselves. Smiley: nod



Edited, Oct 17th 2013 9:28pm by FilthMcNasty
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#23 Oct 18 2013 at 4:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).


It's much easier for me to tell a group, "OK, you're going to dodge the puddles of fire and ice by not standing in the middle, kill the add when it spawns, and run to the center if he runs to the center." on hydra than it is for me to say, "Go look up a strategy guide for him."

I'm a big fan of going to look up crap before you actually attempt it but that's just not realistic from what I've seen.




Princess tanks...I've run into a few. I've run into quite a few @#%^s of every job/role, though.

I am generally patient and will help by giving advice on any role: tank or DPS. But, you also need to know when to call it quits.

Two instances come to mind: one where I was a healer and the other where I was a tank.

The fist instance as a healer...

I was doing Manor the other day on my WHM. Our tank was new and so was one of the DPS. I had clicked join party in progress so I ended up down in the basement with them. I tanked the skeleton while my tank and DPS killed the imp on the 2nd boss. So I thought, "OK so the tank didn't try to get the skeleton off me the entire fight...maybe I was just spamming heals too much." and I decided to stay longer. We end up on the last boss and I continually keep on dying when the three adds spawn because 1) the SMN wouldn't LB or 2) the tank didn't pick them up. There was nothing I could do to prevent my deaths, unfortunately, since the tank or one of the DPS would end up with 1/4th health after an add cast a spell on them (or the boss cast void thunder on the MT). I'd have to use at least cure if not cure 2.

We did this 7 times with very little improvement on each successive try despite me 'coaching' them with the help of the other DPS who seemed to be experienced. Finally, the DPS picked up both adds relatively quickly and I didn't get two shot by the mini-succubi.

I am OK with repeated failure as long as I see improvement on each attempt. There wasn't any. I probably should have left on the 5th attempt. As cruel as that sounds, you're not really helping anyone by allowing players like this to pass on to the next dungeon or group activity. This is what 11 did right: heavy emphasis on group play. You had to group to level unless you decided to play BST. You learned your job in the leveling group or you gained a reputation for not knowing what to do and never getting invited back.

If you hold someone's hand too much, they're not going to know what to do when sh*t hits the fan later on.

The second instance as a tank...

I was tanking Garuda HM. I had decided to try to do this in DF to test the atmosphere since the free trial had ended. This was back when I had a smattering of DL, Hoplite, and Ifrit's weapon on my tank.

I was met with some pretty nice players. So I inspected them only to find some things that weren't too appealing: level 28 accessories, full AF, etc.

That's OK: we'll attempt it anyways. I've seen amazing players in 'meh' gear do just fine on Garuda. My gear actually was kind of 'meh' so I let the other tank MT it who was in full DL.

Many of the DPS were actually BLMs so this helped out a ton. I advised them on the best use of flare and how to take care of plumes during phase 1, told people where to stand/when to stand there/when to dodge, informed them about manaward and aerial blast, told them about lethargy's use on Garuda, etc. I also had my macros to warn people when to move behind pillars and had my satin plume/rotation/move to center macro ready for phase 2.

We didn't make it to phase 2. Our rocks were continually blown away because the plumes weren't dying fast enough nor was Garuda. The 2nd time we wiped, I loaded up my parser and decided to take a look at what we were dealing with. The results were pretty bad and told me that the DPS check was not being met.

So I told them honestly what I thought after attempt #5: that I didn't think we had the DPS to do this and I didn't know if my gear would be good enough for the adds in phase 2. I told them I was going to go work on gearing up, wished everyone well, and politely excused myself. To my surprise, I wasn't cussed at or called a noob: people said thank you for the patience, it was fun, and that they had learned a lot. Very refreshing.

Would you consider this being a princess tank? What would you have done differently? I don't know what words I could have used to increase the DPS so substantially that we could get to phase 2 unless I sat down with every single DPS and looked at their rotation.


In one case I stuck it out and felt bad. In the other case, I excused myself after a reasonable number of attempts and felt better because it looked like people had not only learned but realized their own limitations as well.

What do you find to be a reasonable number of attempts before you decide to call it quits without being labeled a princess?

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 6:30am by HitomeOfBismarck
#24 Oct 18 2013 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho
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#25 Oct 18 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho


Oh then I completely agree with your assessment. I haven't really run the low level dungeons much since there is very little incentive for me to do so.

They are meant to teach, as you have indicated. Some people think that the rushing mentality applies to these dungeons when it doesn't then they get frustrated because you all aren't pro enough to handle it....when it's a dungeon intended to help players learn.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize where the enmity bar was until I got in the mid 40s, embarrassingly enough.

I think what you may be experiencing is players running through these dungeons on their second job to 50.to get away from the FATE grinding. Thus, you get this type of attitude. :\ They already know what to do yet don't realize that many players are doing it for the first time.

Honestly don't know how to fix that besides adding a "new player" check box to the DF window so you can state whether you want to group with new players or want to speed run it with 'pros'.
#26 Oct 18 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game. If all the elitists and impatient players had their way, the game would just become non-paying work away from work. If you don't want to run Toto-rak with new players, then go in as a party with some friends you've made online. Don't have any? Shout for it. Can't get a group together? Then deal with it.
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#27 Oct 18 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with you. I never leave a party as a tank unless the people there are being ********. I try to coach, or win it. Sometimes using different strategies than the suggested helps too...
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#28 Oct 18 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game.

I have exactly the opposite reaction to this suggestion: I think it would be amazing to have a "click-here-if-you're-a-douchebag" box in the duty finder that would segregate you from the non-douchebags.
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#29 Oct 18 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
cartec wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game.

I have exactly the opposite reaction to this suggestion: I think it would be amazing to have a "click-here-if-you're-a-douchebag" box in the duty finder that would segregate you from the non-douchebags.


Trolls will troll. Giving them a special club they don't have to go to won't eliminate them from the general population. Funny suggestion though!
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#30 Oct 18 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel GTA had a nice system for this though. Get enough bad Karma stacked up so you become a "Bad Sport", and you can only play with other people who are "Bad Sports". Ofcourse their system is a little flawed as in simply being kicked by the host, disconnecting or leaving mid-game for whatever reason already gets you on the track towards being a "Bad Sport". You then were forced into a timer that slowly ticked down, and 48 hours later you're let back into the general group again.

Maybe votes in FFXIV? If 3 out of 4 people vote someone as being a really bad person, however easily this is exploited, have them get kicked and get one point of negative Karma. When a certain number of negative karma's a day have been reached, let the person who got it be unable to party-up with anyone who doesnt have negative karma as well, and duty finder automatically grouping them with other such jerks.

Kick in the face thing would be to have people who have previously been bad sports get it more and more easily with less and less votes required each time. Slowly ticking away with +1 karma each day up to a maximum of 0.
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#31 Oct 18 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho


Oh then I completely agree with your assessment. I haven't really run the low level dungeons much since there is very little incentive for me to do so.

They are meant to teach, as you have indicated. Some people think that the rushing mentality applies to these dungeons when it doesn't then they get frustrated because you all aren't pro enough to handle it....when it's a dungeon intended to help players learn.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize where the enmity bar was until I got in the mid 40s, embarrassingly enough.

I think what you may be experiencing is players running through these dungeons on their second job to 50.to get away from the FATE grinding. Thus, you get this type of attitude. :\ They already know what to do yet don't realize that many players are doing it for the first time.

Honestly don't know how to fix that besides adding a "new player" check box to the DF window so you can state whether you want to group with new players or want to speed run it with 'pros'.


I only learned last week where the hate bars where (by accidental observation, not because anyone filled me in), and I've played through legacy, all beta phases, and EA to clearing Titan HM week 2. Before that, I'd just try to guess how many casts I had before the orange ball turned into a blinky red ball. I don't think I got that tutorial.
#32 Oct 18 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Collectors Edition... $90.

90 day subscription... $40+

Waiting 30+ minutes in DF for a tank/healer to QQ over a tank/healer.... $Priceless.

Is it bad that I've grown less concerned about my rotations compared to if tank/heal won't have a meltdown and bail?
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#33 Oct 18 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Default
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).


It's much easier for me to tell a group, "OK, you're going to dodge the puddles of fire and ice by not standing in the middle, kill the add when it spawns, and run to the center if he runs to the center." on hydra than it is for me to say, "Go look up a strategy guide for him."


You're creating a monster that wastes more time the further it travels. Yeah, it's easy to spit out one strategy for one boss. Telling them about the strat guide and waiting the few mins it takes for them to find their dungeon and read the strategy would take far less time(overall) than every other group they had having to explain every other fight they'd never attempted before.

This is the reason why you see "must know fights" tacked on to shouts in other games from people looking for more players to run content. For that same reason, you'll eventually see it in XIV. That, or people will continue to drop from groups.
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#34 Oct 18 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group

Don't get me wrong, If I'm queing up for something I don't know I go look it up if I'm going to pug it. I even read up on Cutter's Cry before I ran it even though we did it in a FC group just cause everyone talks about how hard it is so I wanted to have a heads up before we went in.

And yeah, while catering to laziness is just going to create more laziness, a little kindness can also go a long way, but then this is probably why there are so many ******** in these games anymore, Cause everyone has just gotten to lazy to help someone else out cause it infringes on their "time" and just treats everyone like **** anymore.
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#35 Oct 18 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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I can see both sides of the argument.

On the side of the newbies, how does one learn if no one wants to teach? Some people don't learn as well reading or watching as they do while performing the actions. Plus, there are times when someone may not be accustomed to the research side of the game, or who knows exactly what. They would do better with a helping hand. They may not be lazy, just not knowledgeable.

On the side of the "Look it up" crowd: MMOs produce a copious amount of sites dedicated to their understanding and improving player knowledge and efficiency. Think about how many sites there are for even the smallest games, how many wikis are made for them, or personal blogs littered with testing and experiences. With Google at your side, you can quickly load up near full playthroughs for dungeons from multiple perspectives, wikis crammed with information and strategies, forums like this where there are pages and pages of discussion on every aspect of the game... in short, the resources are all there, all you need is to look. So why aren't they?

Now, I fall more into the "Look it up" crowd, but that's mainly because I do look things up. However, I will not berate someone for not looking something up so long as they are willing to admit to either being lazy, not trying, or just honestly new and not knowing where to start.

However, most "princess" types aren't in these categories. They either are dismissive of others because, obviously should know better, or they think they know all, and everyone else knows nothing. Realistically, you will never eliminate them from games, they will either find a place to be tolerated, or they will quit on their own. Same goes for the "It's my X.XX dollars" crowd.
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#36 Oct 18 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Default
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Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.
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#37 Oct 18 2013 at 6:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

What do you find to be a reasonable number of attempts before you decide to call it quits without being labeled a princess?

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 6:30am by HitomeOfBismarck

I'm trying to stick to a "3 stupid deaths" rule. If we wipe 3 times and no one is learning anything despite coaching I will tell the party it was a good attempt and leave.

I say trying because sometimes I just don't like to abandon people but you do have to eventually come to the conclusion that the timer is going to count down to 0 before you beat the first boss and this is costing you in food, repairs and precious playtime.

I do not expect anyone to read a guide or watch a video on anything before hardmode primals. Even then you can easily coach people through Ifrit and Garuda HM.


Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:10pm by Yelta
#38 Oct 18 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


I agree with you entirely..

If you're talking about raiding.

When you're talking about dungeon queues.. no. It's not reasonable to assume that, and it's not reasonable to hold random strangers to that standard, especially in very low level dungeons.

Looking up strategies online for leveling dungeons is not a common practice anywhere. And even if it were, no new player would think to do it.

I agree that raids and raiding FCs will require a bit more of a time investment, and they should. But people just queuing up for dungeons while they level? No.
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#39 Oct 18 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
I really don't see the appeal of looking everything up prior to going into it. Half the fun is figuring things out for yourself. When we did Cutter's Cry for the first time, none of us knew what we were doing, we died a few times and by the end had figured things out.

Most people can pick things up, and by the 2nd-3rd try, have it figured out. If after multiple tries, it's not going anywhere, alt-tab, check it out and pass the message on to everyone. I've essentially gone in blind to all my fights/primals and come out with a win by the end (minus Titan since that was with the FC). It's really not that hard of a game, every boss has a pattern. See it, remember it and go from there.
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#40 Oct 18 2013 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Yeah....no, I'm not doing that, mainly for 3 reasons:

1.) It's a dungeon
2.) It's a dungeon, and
3.) It's a dungeon!

I can learn the fight by doing far quicker than dinking around on the internet for someone's opinion on how something might be done best, when usually, until a game is well established (read: not FFXIV yet), it has a dedicated core group to make guides. Most of the dungeon guides are STILL terrible for this game.
#41 Oct 18 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
I can see both sides of the argument.

On the side of the newbies, how does one learn if no one wants to teach? Some people don't learn as well reading or watching as they do while performing the actions. Plus, there are times when someone may not be accustomed to the research side of the game, or who knows exactly what. They would do better with a helping hand. They may not be lazy, just not knowledgeable.

On the side of the "Look it up" crowd: MMOs produce a copious amount of sites dedicated to their understanding and improving player knowledge and efficiency. Think about how many sites there are for even the smallest games, how many wikis are made for them, or personal blogs littered with testing and experiences. With Google at your side, you can quickly load up near full playthroughs for dungeons from multiple perspectives, wikis crammed with information and strategies, forums like this where there are pages and pages of discussion on every aspect of the game... in short, the resources are all there, all you need is to look. So why aren't they?

Now, I fall more into the "Look it up" crowd, but that's mainly because I do look things up. However, I will not berate someone for not looking something up so long as they are willing to admit to either being lazy, not trying, or just honestly new and not knowing where to start.

However, most "princess" types aren't in these categories. They either are dismissive of others because, obviously should know better, or they think they know all, and everyone else knows nothing. Realistically, you will never eliminate them from games, they will either find a place to be tolerated, or they will quit on their own. Same goes for the "It's my X.XX dollars" crowd.


"Give a man a fish (in this context, telling the strategy for a single dungeon/boss fight), and he'll eat for a day."

"Teach a man to fish (in this context, suggesting that in the future, they look up guides for unknowns they might have questions about), and he'll eat for life."

While I usually won't look up strategies for dungeons/boss fights beforehand, I will do so for things that I've heard before hand are hard. For instance, I didn't look up anything up to the final main scenario dungeon, but I started looking up guides for all primal HM fights before I queued up in the Duty Finder. I do agree that half of the fun is figuring out things for yourself. However, due to the toxic environment of our current endgame, I looked up guides for HM primals in order to avoid being shouted at or anything of the sort.
#42 Oct 18 2013 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"Give a man a fish (in this context, telling the strategy for a single dungeon/boss fight), and he'll eat for a day."

"Teach a man to fish (in this context, suggesting that in the future, they look up guides for unknowns they might have questions about), and he'll eat for life."


No.. that's just someone else giving him a fish. A far better analogy would be teaching him how to learn boss fights quickly. Good luck with that, I've never been successful at teaching people to learn.

EDIT: You might also make the case for showing him where videos are being equivalent to introducing him to the fish market. Either way, dude still doesn't know how to fish.

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 10:39pm by Callinon
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#43 Oct 18 2013 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

I know that there are guides out there, and I did a lot of research before missions in FFXI. But I with FFXIV, I haven't felt the need to do a lot of research ahead of time.

Why the change? I guess I'm just more tolerant of failure at this point in my life, particularly when we're all playing a video game. I honestly don't mind walking into a dungeon with no prior knowledge or preconceived expectations. And if everyone else in the group is in the same boat, we'll probably wipe multiple times and time out. But I'm fine with that.

If one of the members isn't fine with that outcome, they're free to give pointers. I'm not going to ignore advice. But if someone tells me I absolutely have to stop mid stride and go look up the guide somewhere before the party moves one more step, I'll probably just disband. Players that are that demanding of random pick ups generally aren't good company in other ways. I'm not so desperate to make progress in this game that I'll bend over backwards to put up with people who make the time I spend less than enjoyable.
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#44 Oct 18 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.



While I agree with you that having prior knowledge ahead of time is a good thing, I personally am not going to berate someone for not having done so, For all you or I know, that person could be some 14 year old kid who loves Final Fantasy, and his Mom bought him the game for his birthday. I'm not going to rip him a new ******* for being new to MMO's and not wanting to spend time reading up on dungeons. I guess I'm just different in the sense that I have no problem being helpful to people, even after 3-4 wipes in a dungeon. For me the satisfaction of beating something that was a struggle to get through is more satisfying then finding a guide and following it verbatim through a dungeon.

You have to remember, we were all new to this at one point Now if its someone who is to lazy to help themselves or at least not take/try my advice, that's different.

Also, I'm sorry, but IMO, the whole job application analogy to me is way off the mark, I'm playing a ******* game FFS, not filling out an app for NASA. If you take it that seriously, well then, you probably shouldn't join PUG's.

For me, after 7 years of WoW and spending countless hours reading up on classes, raids, and whatever else, its just gotten to the point that I don't care to do the research anymore. Like the whole time I'm reading I just keep thinking to myself that I could just be playing, although with the experience I have, its not all that hard to figure out anymore. I still check up on things, but I just don't get that into it anymore. We did Garuda the other day, I skimmed though the video on youtube like 30 secs before we went in, the tank did a quick break down on what he was going to do, and we got it on the second try. That's about the extent that I'm willing to go anymore, unless its serious raiding. I just don't have the time to spend reading up on every little detail.

And again what Archmage Callinon said, when it comes to raiding, I am 100% behind the fact that you should know everything you can prior to entering a raid, not when running dungeons though.
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#45FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 19 2013 at 1:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I never said I'd berate people. All I do is give them a link that has all the necessary information. I have the patience to find something to do for a few minutes if someone needs to figure something out. I'm just saying that it's a bad habit to get into a group of other people who are informed and waste their time because you're not.
#46 Oct 19 2013 at 3:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
"What were you doing with your life for those 45 minutes you sat in the queue?"


Leveling another job, crafting, gathering, etc
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#47 Oct 19 2013 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Quote:
"What were you doing with your life for those 45 minutes you sat in the queue?"


Leveling another job, crafting, gathering, etc


And just like all of the things you listed here, understanding your role in groups is a part of developing your character.
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#48 Oct 19 2013 at 5:11 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Queue is like a job?

You realize this is a game, right?

Maybe people want to, you know, enjoy the game without doing homework. Having gone through grad school, and all the **** that comes with it, I can tell you right now if someone wanted me to do mandatory homework to actively participate in a pleasure activity, I would respectfully tell them to go **** themselves.

See, it's a game, not a job....people play a game, and they like to challenge themselves. They like to learn by doing, or by figuring out themselves. I didn't watch a single **** video on Ifrit or Garuda; I just Q'd up and let my instincts take over. I screwed up a few times, and some people said "Hey, try this" and I did, and it worked. This is called building a community. Something that happens with player interaction that goes above and beyond a "git gud" response. Because that's what saying "go watch a video" amounts to.

****, I didn't even watch videos for Titan until I had tried it out on my own. Then I realized it was really **** complex, and I didn't want to be "that guy" who dragged the group down because of ignorance. But I had gone into Titan and given it my best shot without any prior knowledge, so I felt good about giving it the old college try. And I think most people have that same attitude; they want to challenge themselves while simultaneously seeking out stronger community ties. The game is just more enjoyable when people help each other. And help does not constitute being told to watch tutorials before you even see a fight.

As an aside, my friends and I like to "beat the protect timer" in AK. Get to demon-dog-boss-thing before the timer on protect wears off. Me and two of them Q into AK tonight with a BLM who had never been to AK. He told us he was new, we said to strap in because he was going for a ride, and we beat that thing in like 35 minutes. Not bad for a first timer. Sure, we explained fights, and he died on Demon Wall near the end, but he did well, adapted just fine, and wasn't a burden. He was an asset. And he said afterwards that he had a **** good time doing it. We've probably ruined the guy on AK now; nothing else will measure up. But that's ok, because we had fun.

You know, fun? That thing you do that's enjoyable? And not at all like work? Or homework? Unless you're that one kid in class who was all "Teacher, you forgot to give us homework tonight!" or something. ***** that kid.
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#49 Oct 19 2013 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Queue is like a job?

You realize this is a game, right?

Maybe people want to, you know, enjoy the game without doing homework. Having gone through grad school, and all the sh*t that comes with it, I can tell you right now if someone wanted me to do mandatory homework to actively participate in a pleasure activity, I would respectfully tell them to go @#%^ themselves.

See, it's a game, not a job....people play a game, and they like to challenge themselves. They like to learn by doing, or by figuring out themselves. I didn't watch a single **** video on Ifrit or Garuda; I just Q'd up and let my instincts take over. I screwed up a few times, and some people said "Hey, try this" and I did, and it worked. This is called building a community. Something that happens with player interaction that goes above and beyond a "git gud" response. Because that's what saying "go watch a video" amounts to.

****, I didn't even watch videos for Titan until I had tried it out on my own. Then I realized it was really **** complex, and I didn't want to be "that guy" who dragged the group down because of ignorance. But I had gone into Titan and given it my best shot without any prior knowledge, so I felt good about giving it the old college try. And I think most people have that same attitude; they want to challenge themselves while simultaneously seeking out stronger community ties. The game is just more enjoyable when people help each other. And help does not constitute being told to watch tutorials before you even see a fight.

As an aside, my friends and I like to "beat the protect timer" in AK. Get to demon-dog-boss-thing before the timer on protect wears off. Me and two of them Q into AK tonight with a BLM who had never been to AK. He told us he was new, we said to strap in because he was going for a ride, and we beat that thing in like 35 minutes. Not bad for a first timer. Sure, we explained fights, and he died on Demon Wall near the end, but he did well, adapted just fine, and wasn't a burden. He was an asset. And he said afterwards that he had a **** good time doing it. We've probably ruined the guy on AK now; nothing else will measure up. But that's ok, because we had fun.

You know, fun? That thing you do that's enjoyable? And not at all like work? Or homework? Unless you're that one kid in class who was all "Teacher, you forgot to give us homework tonight!" or something. ***** that kid.

He's not saying it's a job, he's comparing it to a job interview. As in, if you're not prepared for it atleast a little, you're just going to waste your own time and the time of the people who you are joining. He's not saying you need to study 2-3 nights in a row to know all the little details and to get a 100/100 on your test either.

How hard is it to take 2-3 minutes of your time, open your browser, go to whatever FFXIV wiki you prefer and go; "Well, i see the final boss is a dragon who will kick you if you stand behind him. Looks like we have to hide behind pilars for move X too. Oh, and it seems some adds spawn during the fight as well. Alright! Good to know".

It's common courtesy, and it will most likely keep you (and following that your party) from dying against it because you foolishly stood behind it. Or didnt know Adds spawned that you had to kill or keep off, and all of a sudden your healer is dead. Or standing in the middle of the room when it fires off his apocalypse move.

You're being a jerk deliberately, and there's absolutely no reason for it. It's not a job, work, homework or studying. It's taking a moment to atleast see what you're up against so you and your party will be able to enjoy the dungeon, instead of being killed left and right by trivial stuff you could have found out in less than a minute.

This game isnt hard, it does not take rocket science strategy either and it's heavily dependant on groups for dungeons. One bad apple will pretty much make you unable to complete the dungeon. Dont be that apple. No one is saying you should know everything about it. Just dont ruin 60+ minutes of people's time over something that you could easily have looked up in a minute or two before heading in.
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#50 Oct 19 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I figured people would take issue with the job metaphor. Let's try to clarify first without going metaphor happy.

When you are playing a single player experience, your investment and enjoyment are solely your own. You can choose to go in blind, learn as you go. You can rely on guides if you get stuck, or you can outright just follow a complete walkthrough. You get the ability to do that, and only your personal enjoyment is impacted for any of those choices.

Once you move into multi-player games, especially co-op games, now your choices can ruin the experience for more than just yourself. You cannot always play the game the way you want because now you may wind up having people ditch you or confront you over what you are doing, and how what you are doing is ruining the game for them. In an MMO, this can become even more of an issue. Since you need to have teamwork on most dungeons and almost all raids, one person deciding that they can just experiment and potentially **** the entire run can ruin the time and investment of everyone else.

So let's venture back into analogy territory, shall we?

You want to start playing an organized sport, let's say hockey. Now let's say you don't know the rules, how to skate, or even the basic skills of how to play. There are plenty of ways to learn how to do this. You could join with a few friends in a just-for-fun beer league (ie a FC or LS), and learn the ropes as you go. Your friends will help you out, be more understanding than strangers, and since it's just for fun, you are less likely to wind up upsetting anyone by fumbling about. You could read up on strategies, and practice on your own, then try to join up with a more competitive league to test your skills, but they will likely want to see proof of your skills (FC's that have requirements).

Another way would be to go play at pick-up games (Duty Finder). Now, before going there, it might be good at least to learn some of the fundamentals. You would have others relying on your knowledge of at least the rules of the game, if nothing else, to be effective. If you just showed up with the proper equipment and hopped on the ice without reviewing anything at all, you could ruin the enjoyment of the entire team. You would then turn what should be fun into a chore as that entire team has to take the time to teach you everything you should have known before hopping onto the ice.
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#51 Oct 19 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I figured people would take issue with the job metaphor. Let's try to clarify first without going metaphor happy.

When you are playing a single player experience, your investment and enjoyment are solely your own. You can choose to go in blind, learn as you go. You can rely on guides if you get stuck, or you can outright just follow a complete walkthrough. You get the ability to do that, and only your personal enjoyment is impacted for any of those choices.

Once you move into multi-player games, especially co-op games, now your choices can ruin the experience for more than just yourself. You cannot always play the game the way you want because now you may wind up having people ditch you or confront you over what you are doing, and how what you are doing is ruining the game for them. In an MMO, this can become even more of an issue. Since you need to have teamwork on most dungeons and almost all raids, one person deciding that they can just experiment and potentially @#%^ the entire run can ruin the time and investment of everyone else.


I've used that same explanation when talking about raiding guild applications. It's spot on in that context.

Where I took issue was the idea that people should be expected to put in the same level of dedication while leveling up and doing dungeons. Dungeons are where you learn. Honestly, if a leveling dungeon can't be completed by someone playing imperfectly, then the dungeon is too hard.

That being said, imperfect play should not be mistaken for incompetent play. A tank wearing a swimsuit who can neither take a hit nor hold hate is a burden on his team. A healer who will only dps is going to be the direct cause of failure.

Players need to know the fundamentals of how their job works. And the game does its best to teach that, both through class quests that highlight these functions and through guildhests that attempt to teach party play. There will always be people who ignore these lessons, whether deliberately or not, and there isn't a lot you can do about that besides kick them (soon please).

My concern here is about an unreasonable standard being applied at the wrong stage of the game. I should not have to watch a video guide on Halatali in order to qualify to do Halatali. I should, however, understand basically how my class works and apply that knowledge against what I see in the dungeon. For an experienced MMO player, that's an easy trick we've been doing for years. For a new player, it'll probably take a few attempts to get it right.
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