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#1 Oct 17 2013 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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This issue is still a plague on the community.

We took the full friggin 90 minutes to finish a simple Halatali run last night because we lost our first tank and one DPS to a 90K error on the first boss. Can't be helped - hopefully the patch today will fix it. They never came back.

So my friend and I hung around for around 15 minutes. We picked up a DPS right away, of course. It turned out to be his first run in the dungeon - and he'd only been playing the game a week.

The tank we got seemed nice enough at first, but he quickly grew frustrated with the newbie DPS, and abandoned us after the third wave of mobs. Instead of taking the time to explain how to play to someone who, judging from his gear, was still relatively new to the game, the tank just left. "Learn to play," he said, and was gone.

Another twenty minute wait, and we got another tank. During the downtime, my friend and I coached the newbie on hate management and his role as a DPS. When our third and final tank finally joined, we were down to fifteen minutes with two bosses to go. I told the new tank that our 2nd DPS was new and to please give him advice. The third and final tank, a true hero guy (he seriously was wearing armor that made him look like Iron Man), led us through those last two bosses without a problem.

TL;DR - Instead of calling someone a noob, if you're on a tank job in a low level dungeon, give someone some coaching. Don't be condescending, but explain how hate mechanics work. You'll end up with better DPS in thirty levels that way if you train 'em up early. If you just turn into a princess and leave mid-run, you're not making any friends and you're certainly not going to get better DPS in the long run.
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#2 Oct 17 2013 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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You will see a lot of people act like this in MMOs. I am 30 years old and have started playing MMOs just before FFXI (played a month of Star Wars Galaxies). I have played Lineage 2 for half a year, WoW for over 6 years, tried Aion, TERA and a few others free to play.

I can say, without any doubts, that you will see that kind of attitude more and more. Why? Because of the cross server lfg/duty finder/matching systems. Since you can queue for a dungeon and play with people you will never see again, people think they can act like d1cks and that there will be no consequence (which is kind of true except for wasting a little bit of your playing time).

I don't know if you have played FFXI or WoW during the lvl 60 era, but people knew each other because everything was restricted to your server (instance/dungeons, raid, pvp, etc...). If you were a jerk, most of the people playing would know it and refuse to play with you. Hence why good players that were elitists were playing together, and the nice people (good and bad players) were playing together. It was the good old times of MMOs in my opinion because it created a lot more bonds, good or bad ones.

I'll use an example from WoW (one of the best MMO that ever existed in my opinion, but it's shining years are behind). When they introduced the PvP system, I gave it a shot to reach High Warlord (Rank 14). You had to pvp a lot and people would know about you. I was playing Horde and running my own PvP group to maximize time/reward. Some people from the Horde hated me because I wouldn't take them in my PvP group. People even made a "hate post" on the official server forum saying I was bad and some people claimed I was hacking (which was totally false).

My point is, there has always been jerks and a-holes, but the trend is there are more and more of these.

I play PLD in FFXIV. Just got to lvl 50 and did Praetorium yesterday. I got yelled at from people geared with Ifrit weapons and lvl 50 gear for not holding hate enough. I told them at the start of the run it was my first time and that I just reach lvl 50. When they complained, I told them I was doing my best and to give me advice instead of crying as crying never helps.

When I tank a dungeon I'm familiar with, I always ask at the start if anyone is new or doesn't remember the fights. If it's the case, I'll explain anything they need to know, either on trash mobs or boss. It takes a little bit of my time and makes the run a lot more enjoyable.

Don't get discouraged by a few jerks. Find good players, make new friends and enjoy the game. Remember, this is a game!
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#3 Oct 17 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, unfortunately tanks and healers tend to be prima donnas. It can be painful. Especially in the 8 man dungeons when you have two tanks (I have only tanked them personally), and one tank will not pick a role.

I can't tell you how many times I have had issues with going in to a CM boss fight where the adds tank or the main tank decides they can tank it all. Strip hate from me, and run around like an idiot, get the mages killed and cause a wipe. They then complain the party sucks, and leave.

There have been a few fights where people will get players watching cutscenes locked out of boss fights because they don't want to wait.

And of course healers love to just up and leave if someone gets aggro, which slows down the rate that they get there ToPs...

But, just remember there are still a few tanks that actually care more about having fun, and enjoying a game, rather than treating it like an exercise in efficiency training.
#4 Oct 17 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The 2 things duty finder needs:

Vote kick for afk/tards/trolls
A limit to the # of times you can leave (first). So a tank can only leave first 3 times a day after that they are struck there until someone else leaves first.


That said...im tired of 'nob' dd...specially archers who run in circles for the sake of always being moving...dont assist...and dont help with adds on a boss. Im not a princess tank on my pld/war but when i see bards jumping around in circles, no assisting i want to /vote kick them for wasting our time.
#5 Oct 17 2013 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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I wish there was a vote kick in this game. It sends a message to the entire party that either someone is really ******** things up (and that person will hopefully do their homework to learn what they were doing wrong) or it will prove that the party is tolerant of the person and the person who is (perhaps a repeat offender) of starting votes is a princess and needs to learn to play well with others.

As it is, your only option when things aren't going right is to either disconnect or leave the dungeon. I don't think many people are learning what they need to learn (both sides of the coin) this way.
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#6 Oct 17 2013 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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I would like to say there are "Princesses" in general for all classes. Sure, tanks and healers might be most frequent, but I had a horrible run yesterday with a DPS. He yelled at the ally in a Garuda run because two people were wearing their AFs. If their gear was the issue, then fine, make a comment. However, don't start yelling at everyone saying they are lazy and have no respect for the game. I was pretty bothered by it. I was trying to comment back at him, but he immediately made his *****-fest and then dropped. For all I know, maybe he is a Princess Tank/Healer and decided to come DPS that run.

As a main healer, I don't have that attitude. If anything, I'm always worried I'm not doing a good job and scared that I'm gonna get yelled at. I've had a tank yell at me for "attacking" an unmarked mob. I asked him that he was blind and should read his battle log to see what I'm doing. I was full curing and he wasn't holding group hate. During the battle, I was trying to sleep mobs that were all attacking me.
#7 Oct 17 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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TrenchTMK wrote:
I would like to say there are "Princesses" in general for all classes. Sure, tanks and healers might be most frequent, but I had a horrible run yesterday with a DPS. He yelled at the ally in a Garuda run because two people were wearing their AFs. If their gear was the issue, then fine, make a comment. However, don't start yelling at everyone saying they are lazy and have no respect for the game. I was pretty bothered by it. I was trying to comment back at him, but he immediately made his *****-fest and then dropped. For all I know, maybe he is a Princess Tank/Healer and decided to come DPS that run.

As a main healer, I don't have that attitude. If anything, I'm always worried I'm not doing a good job and scared that I'm gonna get yelled at. I've had a tank yell at me for "attacking" an unmarked mob. I asked him that he was blind and should read his battle log to see what I'm doing. I was full curing and he wasn't holding group hate. During the battle, I was trying to sleep mobs that were all attacking me.


For sure being a jerk isn't role-specific. But this is an attitude you will tend to see more from tanks and healers because of the sense of entitlement that comes from instant queues. The ones who espouse this attitude feel they can do so because the worst thing that happens is they just queue up again with no waiting time, whereas a DPS has to wait an hour to do the same.

It's definitely not ALL of any group. And gross generalizations are always wrong. But the tendency is towards tanks and healers who feel they have extra privilege to be a-holes because they can do so relatively consequence-free.
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#8 Oct 17 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with you Cat, it's the best way to get improved players down the road. However, some people have this "survival of fittest" mentality so it doesn't matter to them. These people you mention would rather cut their losses early and find a more capable player/party. I'm sure some people would probably agree with the tank's opinion on noob players, but the way I see it, the game is barely 30 days old. I think what worries me most is that FFXIV doesn't seem to have that great of a community, nothing like FFXI. The people who are willing to handhold you are few and far between. Elitists and jerks rule this game already. ***** up once on a hard fight with a PUG group like the Titan HM and you get the wrath of God out of people. They either drop and ***** you or they insult you and ruin the party's cohesion which later results in people dropping. There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.
#9 Oct 17 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.


Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level? I'm leveling some new classes and to be honest I'm having a blast in pre-50 instances. There's the occasional mute tunnel-vision player but that vast majority are nice, fun people.

On the other hand, every single instance I've run at level 50 has been a horrible nightmare, it almost made me rage-uninstall after a few days at 50.

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol
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#10 Oct 17 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.


Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level? I'm leveling some new classes and to be honest I'm having a blast in pre-50 instances. There's the occasional mute tunnel-vision player but that vast majority are nice, fun people.

On the other hand, every single instance I've run at level 50 has been a horrible nightmare, it almost made me rage-uninstall after a few days at 50.

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol

^^THIS^^

I literally can't stand endgame people. Which my gear selection has really helped me not walk away from this game. I am now trying to collect materia to meld to my heavy darksteel before continuing to titan. I just have ABSOLUTELY no interest in most of it (however, I am going to have fun doing CM/AK/WP in iLevel 55 gear, and watch people panic because I am not wearing "Best in Slot" gear as tank, and by have fun, I mean have to try to convince friends to do them).
#11 Oct 17 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
There are good people here and there though, just not enough for my tastes.

Anybody else see the quality of players (and I don't mean how good they play, I mean their quality as human beings) go down as you level?

The joke in FFXI was the formula for instant butthead was just add level 75. But it's not that getting to level 75 somehow turned people into buttheads. Those people were buttheads before they got to level 75. They just became more vocal buttheads.
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#12 Oct 17 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.
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#13 Oct 17 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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My personal favorite are the tanks that tell people to uninstall when they get hit by a weight of the land (it happens, especially when they pile up and you get calculated as hit on the 2nd but not first in the pile) when they themselves got hit by every landslide in the first phase (pre jump) and almost got one shotted on the first buttpound.

I'm not talking about a main tank either, one of the unfortunate off tanks DF picks up lol.
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#14 Oct 17 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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PhoenixOmbre wrote:

My wife has this theory that all the jerks powerleveled to get to the end in a hurry and the nice people are taking their time, if we wait for them the end-game will get better Smiley: lol


I really think this is 100% true, I'm still not level 50 and I'm really not in that much of a hurry to get there, in my opinion, hopefully a few months from now all the asshats (or at least the majority) will get bored and move on to something else, and all that will be left is people who are actually fans of FF and want to just play the game, not worry about some virtual epeen.
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#15 Oct 17 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've met nice people on all classes, complete jerks on all classes and incredibly gimp people on all classes.

It doesnt matter who's on what class. I've actually found people on healing jobs in general more kind than others, same for people on tank jobs playing them because they enjoy keeping others safe and dont mind shouldering a burden of responsibility. Only real problems i've had were with Damage Dealers. Not responsible enough to level something that actually contributes to the party, yet not reserved enough to keep from complaining endlessly if only a minor detail in the party is wrong.

Only due to queue times and what not, they dont simply disconnect if something is wrong, but instead anoy people endlessly in their current party untill someone else steps up and leaves.
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#16 Oct 17 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's to hoping that a year from now most of the jerks will have gotten their fill and moved on. A former co-worker of mine was the type of guy who would rush to endgame, grind it out, get bored and quit. On to the next game. Best-case scenario is a lot of jerks who are playing right now are like this. Worst-case scenario is we're seeing a new era in MMO gaming and the days of community have gone the way of the dinosaurs. Time will tell.
#17 Oct 17 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry, I tried. I really tried. However, I couldn't get past the title...

princess tanks
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#18 Oct 17 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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reptiletim wrote:
I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.

I did this on my PLD from 15-22: hit Join Party in Progress every dungeon available. So I could learn the tanking role, especially through practice. It's fun because you get to feel like "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction. The businessman everyone knows to call when you need to clean up whatever bloody or otherwise illegal mess you've gotten yourself into.

You have a situation that's thirty minutes away? He'll be there in 10. (Poor Marvin.)
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#19 Oct 17 2013 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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My 2 cents, more people might be jerks at 50 dungeons because you can actually lose at them. Pre 50 I don't think I lost one story dungeon or came close to time. But once you hit 50 and you have to keep running the same ones over and over and over when you que up in df for titan or ak and someone is in full af it's disheartening cuz you know your going to lose and if not lose spend a hour and a half in a 30 min dungeon.

I find biggest jerks to be the first timers who never let it be known to the group that they are new and don't know what to do and proceed to lose the fight for people or become a hindrance just because they didn't want to type I'm new or what's the game plane. And the ones that take offences when someone points out that with there gear they should run a different dungeon.



Ps. If your pug is having issues with weight and landslide pre heart you weren't going to win to begin with.
#20 Oct 17 2013 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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My 2 cents, more people might be jerks at 50 dungeons because you can actually lose at them. Pre 50 I don't think I lost one story dungeon or came close to time. But once you hit 50 and you have to keep running the same ones over and over and over when you que up in df for titan or ak and someone is in full af it's disheartening cuz you know your going to lose and if not lose spend a hour and a half in a 30 min dungeon.


People lose at Brayflox's Longstop, Aurum Vale, and Stone Vigil all the time.
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#21 Oct 17 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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fatpolomanjr wrote:
reptiletim wrote:
I have to give kudos to the tank that shows up mid-dungeon and not only has to salvage the situation but tank well and finish the run.

I did this on my PLD from 15-22: hit Join Party in Progress every dungeon available. So I could learn the tanking role, especially through practice. It's fun because you get to feel like "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction. The businessman everyone knows to call when you need to clean up whatever bloody or otherwise illegal mess you've gotten yourself into.

You have a situation that's thirty minutes away? He'll be there in 10. (Poor Marvin.)


You're sending the Wolf? SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH*****************TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT N*gro that's all you had to say...


Love that movie
#22 Oct 17 2013 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
TL;DR - Instead of calling someone a noob, if you're on a tank job in a low level dungeon, give someone some coaching. Don't be condescending, but explain how hate mechanics work. You'll end up with better DPS in thirty levels that way if you train 'em up early. If you just turn into a princess and leave mid-run, you're not making any friends and you're certainly not going to get better DPS in the long run.


Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).

The role isn't a hard role to fill. There are exceptional players no doubt, but not much is needed to be successful at your average XIV instance. I wouldn't say that people who show up unprepared deserve to be told "learn to play", but they should at least take up their own time and not waste that of others.

If a player asks me something specific about a mechanic and how I tank, I'll gladly offer an answer and even suggestions on what to do...

"Hey Filth, do you tank phase 2 against the wall or do you kite it? Where are the healers stacking for phase 3 so I can be in range for heals?"

These are legit questions that would get a straight answer.

"Hey Filth, I've never done this instance before. Tell me all the mechanics of the fight."

This just proves you don't care enough about not only your time, but mine too. I wouldn't say "l2p" and skip out. I'd probably say "AFK a few minutes while someone explains the fight". At best, you get a link to this.

I wouldn't have a problem with giving advice if it were a rare occurrence, but it's not. Far from it. Coaching and explaining encounters to people only encourages them to show up to the next dungeon unprepared. Essentially you're giving a man a fish. I just give them the link above and they can feed themselves. Smiley: nod



Edited, Oct 17th 2013 9:28pm by FilthMcNasty
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#23 Oct 18 2013 at 4:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).


It's much easier for me to tell a group, "OK, you're going to dodge the puddles of fire and ice by not standing in the middle, kill the add when it spawns, and run to the center if he runs to the center." on hydra than it is for me to say, "Go look up a strategy guide for him."

I'm a big fan of going to look up crap before you actually attempt it but that's just not realistic from what I've seen.




Princess tanks...I've run into a few. I've run into quite a few @#%^s of every job/role, though.

I am generally patient and will help by giving advice on any role: tank or DPS. But, you also need to know when to call it quits.

Two instances come to mind: one where I was a healer and the other where I was a tank.

The fist instance as a healer...

I was doing Manor the other day on my WHM. Our tank was new and so was one of the DPS. I had clicked join party in progress so I ended up down in the basement with them. I tanked the skeleton while my tank and DPS killed the imp on the 2nd boss. So I thought, "OK so the tank didn't try to get the skeleton off me the entire fight...maybe I was just spamming heals too much." and I decided to stay longer. We end up on the last boss and I continually keep on dying when the three adds spawn because 1) the SMN wouldn't LB or 2) the tank didn't pick them up. There was nothing I could do to prevent my deaths, unfortunately, since the tank or one of the DPS would end up with 1/4th health after an add cast a spell on them (or the boss cast void thunder on the MT). I'd have to use at least cure if not cure 2.

We did this 7 times with very little improvement on each successive try despite me 'coaching' them with the help of the other DPS who seemed to be experienced. Finally, the DPS picked up both adds relatively quickly and I didn't get two shot by the mini-succubi.

I am OK with repeated failure as long as I see improvement on each attempt. There wasn't any. I probably should have left on the 5th attempt. As cruel as that sounds, you're not really helping anyone by allowing players like this to pass on to the next dungeon or group activity. This is what 11 did right: heavy emphasis on group play. You had to group to level unless you decided to play BST. You learned your job in the leveling group or you gained a reputation for not knowing what to do and never getting invited back.

If you hold someone's hand too much, they're not going to know what to do when sh*t hits the fan later on.

The second instance as a tank...

I was tanking Garuda HM. I had decided to try to do this in DF to test the atmosphere since the free trial had ended. This was back when I had a smattering of DL, Hoplite, and Ifrit's weapon on my tank.

I was met with some pretty nice players. So I inspected them only to find some things that weren't too appealing: level 28 accessories, full AF, etc.

That's OK: we'll attempt it anyways. I've seen amazing players in 'meh' gear do just fine on Garuda. My gear actually was kind of 'meh' so I let the other tank MT it who was in full DL.

Many of the DPS were actually BLMs so this helped out a ton. I advised them on the best use of flare and how to take care of plumes during phase 1, told people where to stand/when to stand there/when to dodge, informed them about manaward and aerial blast, told them about lethargy's use on Garuda, etc. I also had my macros to warn people when to move behind pillars and had my satin plume/rotation/move to center macro ready for phase 2.

We didn't make it to phase 2. Our rocks were continually blown away because the plumes weren't dying fast enough nor was Garuda. The 2nd time we wiped, I loaded up my parser and decided to take a look at what we were dealing with. The results were pretty bad and told me that the DPS check was not being met.

So I told them honestly what I thought after attempt #5: that I didn't think we had the DPS to do this and I didn't know if my gear would be good enough for the adds in phase 2. I told them I was going to go work on gearing up, wished everyone well, and politely excused myself. To my surprise, I wasn't cussed at or called a noob: people said thank you for the patience, it was fun, and that they had learned a lot. Very refreshing.

Would you consider this being a princess tank? What would you have done differently? I don't know what words I could have used to increase the DPS so substantially that we could get to phase 2 unless I sat down with every single DPS and looked at their rotation.


In one case I stuck it out and felt bad. In the other case, I excused myself after a reasonable number of attempts and felt better because it looked like people had not only learned but realized their own limitations as well.

What do you find to be a reasonable number of attempts before you decide to call it quits without being labeled a princess?

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 6:30am by HitomeOfBismarck
#24 Oct 18 2013 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho
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#25 Oct 18 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho


Oh then I completely agree with your assessment. I haven't really run the low level dungeons much since there is very little incentive for me to do so.

They are meant to teach, as you have indicated. Some people think that the rushing mentality applies to these dungeons when it doesn't then they get frustrated because you all aren't pro enough to handle it....when it's a dungeon intended to help players learn.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize where the enmity bar was until I got in the mid 40s, embarrassingly enough.

I think what you may be experiencing is players running through these dungeons on their second job to 50.to get away from the FATE grinding. Thus, you get this type of attitude. :\ They already know what to do yet don't realize that many players are doing it for the first time.

Honestly don't know how to fix that besides adding a "new player" check box to the DF window so you can state whether you want to group with new players or want to speed run it with 'pros'.
#26 Oct 18 2013 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game. If all the elitists and impatient players had their way, the game would just become non-paying work away from work. If you don't want to run Toto-rak with new players, then go in as a party with some friends you've made online. Don't have any? Shout for it. Can't get a group together? Then deal with it.
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