Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Princess TanksFollow

#27 Oct 18 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
***
1,079 posts
I agree with you. I never leave a party as a tank unless the people there are being ********. I try to coach, or win it. Sometimes using different strategies than the suggested helps too...
____________________________
FFXIV
Articus Vladmir
PLD WHM BRD DRG BLM
#28 Oct 18 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
44 posts
IKickYoDog wrote:
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game.

I have exactly the opposite reaction to this suggestion: I think it would be amazing to have a "click-here-if-you're-a-douchebag" box in the duty finder that would segregate you from the non-douchebags.
____________________________
Cross-Class Skill Sheet
Kawaii rate me down
#29 Oct 18 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
cartec wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
This is not directed at you Hitome, but I personally am tired of hearing "They need to add this checkbox to the DF" from all the impatient people in this game. They want a speed-run box, a no noobs box, a no cutscene box, a new player only box, etc. People need to learn to calm down and enjoy the game.

I have exactly the opposite reaction to this suggestion: I think it would be amazing to have a "click-here-if-you're-a-douchebag" box in the duty finder that would segregate you from the non-douchebags.


Trolls will troll. Giving them a special club they don't have to go to won't eliminate them from the general population. Funny suggestion though!
____________________________
Our team is like a flock of woodpeckers in a petrified forest. We just need to keep working and keep an eye open for opportunity.

FFXI
Toofar - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - WHM BLM SMN
Rafoot - Asura (Formerly of Lakshmi (Garuda)) - THF SAM BRD
#30 Oct 18 2013 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
4,511 posts
I feel GTA had a nice system for this though. Get enough bad Karma stacked up so you become a "Bad Sport", and you can only play with other people who are "Bad Sports". Ofcourse their system is a little flawed as in simply being kicked by the host, disconnecting or leaving mid-game for whatever reason already gets you on the track towards being a "Bad Sport". You then were forced into a timer that slowly ticked down, and 48 hours later you're let back into the general group again.

Maybe votes in FFXIV? If 3 out of 4 people vote someone as being a really bad person, however easily this is exploited, have them get kicked and get one point of negative Karma. When a certain number of negative karma's a day have been reached, let the person who got it be unable to party-up with anyone who doesnt have negative karma as well, and duty finder automatically grouping them with other such jerks.

Kick in the face thing would be to have people who have previously been bad sports get it more and more easily with less and less votes required each time. Slowly ticking away with +1 karma each day up to a maximum of 0.
____________________________
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
#31 Oct 18 2013 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
*
149 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I think the single boss fights are different. If you've attempted it a few times and it's clear that, as a group, you are just under powered, you're totally justified in calling it quits. Now if it's just a matter of folks not quite getting the timing right, I think it's probably worth it to try a few more times unless you have an idiot who just stands there drooling.

As for coaching versus "looking it up in strategy guides" I'm not talking about tactics for specific dungeons. I'm talking about low level dungeons (Sastasha up through Halatali) where people haven't gotten the hang of their jobs yet. They're tutorial dungeons, but someone who rushed on through the storyline without reading how to play their class in the class tutorial bits may not fully understand their role. And there's other nuances that get left out of the class tutorials - like not overnuking as a THM or over-arrowing, over-punching, over-poking, etc. Our newbie THM didn't even realize what the hate bars were there for, but once we explained their purpose and how he could monitor them, he was a lot better about not grabbing hate from our Iron Man tank.



Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:43am by Catwho


Oh then I completely agree with your assessment. I haven't really run the low level dungeons much since there is very little incentive for me to do so.

They are meant to teach, as you have indicated. Some people think that the rushing mentality applies to these dungeons when it doesn't then they get frustrated because you all aren't pro enough to handle it....when it's a dungeon intended to help players learn.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize where the enmity bar was until I got in the mid 40s, embarrassingly enough.

I think what you may be experiencing is players running through these dungeons on their second job to 50.to get away from the FATE grinding. Thus, you get this type of attitude. :\ They already know what to do yet don't realize that many players are doing it for the first time.

Honestly don't know how to fix that besides adding a "new player" check box to the DF window so you can state whether you want to group with new players or want to speed run it with 'pros'.


I only learned last week where the hate bars where (by accidental observation, not because anyone filled me in), and I've played through legacy, all beta phases, and EA to clearing Titan HM week 2. Before that, I'd just try to guess how many casts I had before the orange ball turned into a blinky red ball. I don't think I got that tutorial.
#32 Oct 18 2013 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
**
598 posts
Collectors Edition... $90.

90 day subscription... $40+

Waiting 30+ minutes in DF for a tank/healer to QQ over a tank/healer.... $Priceless.

Is it bad that I've grown less concerned about my rotations compared to if tank/heal won't have a meltdown and bail?
____________________________
Sour Cherry
#33 Oct 18 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Default
****
4,172 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Coaching? I think that's asking a bit much. There are guides and explanations for every encounter for every instance in FFXIV. It's a simple google search and it saves the rest of your group the time you should be taking to better understand your class(if you're the struggling DPS).


It's much easier for me to tell a group, "OK, you're going to dodge the puddles of fire and ice by not standing in the middle, kill the add when it spawns, and run to the center if he runs to the center." on hydra than it is for me to say, "Go look up a strategy guide for him."


You're creating a monster that wastes more time the further it travels. Yeah, it's easy to spit out one strategy for one boss. Telling them about the strat guide and waiting the few mins it takes for them to find their dungeon and read the strategy would take far less time(overall) than every other group they had having to explain every other fight they'd never attempted before.

This is the reason why you see "must know fights" tacked on to shouts in other games from people looking for more players to run content. For that same reason, you'll eventually see it in XIV. That, or people will continue to drop from groups.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#34 Oct 18 2013 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
*
197 posts
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group

Don't get me wrong, If I'm queing up for something I don't know I go look it up if I'm going to pug it. I even read up on Cutter's Cry before I ran it even though we did it in a FC group just cause everyone talks about how hard it is so I wanted to have a heads up before we went in.

And yeah, while catering to laziness is just going to create more laziness, a little kindness can also go a long way, but then this is probably why there are so many ******** in these games anymore, Cause everyone has just gotten to lazy to help someone else out cause it infringes on their "time" and just treats everyone like **** anymore.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#35 Oct 18 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
*****
12,829 posts
I can see both sides of the argument.

On the side of the newbies, how does one learn if no one wants to teach? Some people don't learn as well reading or watching as they do while performing the actions. Plus, there are times when someone may not be accustomed to the research side of the game, or who knows exactly what. They would do better with a helping hand. They may not be lazy, just not knowledgeable.

On the side of the "Look it up" crowd: MMOs produce a copious amount of sites dedicated to their understanding and improving player knowledge and efficiency. Think about how many sites there are for even the smallest games, how many wikis are made for them, or personal blogs littered with testing and experiences. With Google at your side, you can quickly load up near full playthroughs for dungeons from multiple perspectives, wikis crammed with information and strategies, forums like this where there are pages and pages of discussion on every aspect of the game... in short, the resources are all there, all you need is to look. So why aren't they?

Now, I fall more into the "Look it up" crowd, but that's mainly because I do look things up. However, I will not berate someone for not looking something up so long as they are willing to admit to either being lazy, not trying, or just honestly new and not knowing where to start.

However, most "princess" types aren't in these categories. They either are dismissive of others because, obviously should know better, or they think they know all, and everyone else knows nothing. Realistically, you will never eliminate them from games, they will either find a place to be tolerated, or they will quit on their own. Same goes for the "It's my X.XX dollars" crowd.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#36 Oct 18 2013 at 5:51 PM Rating: Default
****
4,172 posts
Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#37 Oct 18 2013 at 6:07 PM Rating: Excellent
**
326 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

What do you find to be a reasonable number of attempts before you decide to call it quits without being labeled a princess?

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 6:30am by HitomeOfBismarck

I'm trying to stick to a "3 stupid deaths" rule. If we wipe 3 times and no one is learning anything despite coaching I will tell the party it was a good attempt and leave.

I say trying because sometimes I just don't like to abandon people but you do have to eventually come to the conclusion that the timer is going to count down to 0 before you beat the first boss and this is costing you in food, repairs and precious playtime.

I do not expect anyone to read a guide or watch a video on anything before hardmode primals. Even then you can easily coach people through Ifrit and Garuda HM.


Edited, Oct 18th 2013 8:10pm by Yelta
#38 Oct 18 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,707 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


I agree with you entirely..

If you're talking about raiding.

When you're talking about dungeon queues.. no. It's not reasonable to assume that, and it's not reasonable to hold random strangers to that standard, especially in very low level dungeons.

Looking up strategies online for leveling dungeons is not a common practice anywhere. And even if it were, no new player would think to do it.

I agree that raids and raiding FCs will require a bit more of a time investment, and they should. But people just queuing up for dungeons while they level? No.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#39 Oct 18 2013 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
I really don't see the appeal of looking everything up prior to going into it. Half the fun is figuring things out for yourself. When we did Cutter's Cry for the first time, none of us knew what we were doing, we died a few times and by the end had figured things out.

Most people can pick things up, and by the 2nd-3rd try, have it figured out. If after multiple tries, it's not going anywhere, alt-tab, check it out and pass the message on to everyone. I've essentially gone in blind to all my fights/primals and come out with a win by the end (minus Titan since that was with the FC). It's really not that hard of a game, every boss has a pattern. See it, remember it and go from there.
____________________________

#40 Oct 18 2013 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
*
149 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
So what happens when someone doesnt know the fight, you tell them to go look it up right quick, and they tell you to F off? Do you all just sit and stare at each other till someone drops group.


When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Yeah....no, I'm not doing that, mainly for 3 reasons:

1.) It's a dungeon
2.) It's a dungeon, and
3.) It's a dungeon!

I can learn the fight by doing far quicker than dinking around on the internet for someone's opinion on how something might be done best, when usually, until a game is well established (read: not FFXIV yet), it has a dedicated core group to make guides. Most of the dungeon guides are STILL terrible for this game.
#41 Oct 18 2013 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
Guru
**
617 posts
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
I can see both sides of the argument.

On the side of the newbies, how does one learn if no one wants to teach? Some people don't learn as well reading or watching as they do while performing the actions. Plus, there are times when someone may not be accustomed to the research side of the game, or who knows exactly what. They would do better with a helping hand. They may not be lazy, just not knowledgeable.

On the side of the "Look it up" crowd: MMOs produce a copious amount of sites dedicated to their understanding and improving player knowledge and efficiency. Think about how many sites there are for even the smallest games, how many wikis are made for them, or personal blogs littered with testing and experiences. With Google at your side, you can quickly load up near full playthroughs for dungeons from multiple perspectives, wikis crammed with information and strategies, forums like this where there are pages and pages of discussion on every aspect of the game... in short, the resources are all there, all you need is to look. So why aren't they?

Now, I fall more into the "Look it up" crowd, but that's mainly because I do look things up. However, I will not berate someone for not looking something up so long as they are willing to admit to either being lazy, not trying, or just honestly new and not knowing where to start.

However, most "princess" types aren't in these categories. They either are dismissive of others because, obviously should know better, or they think they know all, and everyone else knows nothing. Realistically, you will never eliminate them from games, they will either find a place to be tolerated, or they will quit on their own. Same goes for the "It's my X.XX dollars" crowd.


"Give a man a fish (in this context, telling the strategy for a single dungeon/boss fight), and he'll eat for a day."

"Teach a man to fish (in this context, suggesting that in the future, they look up guides for unknowns they might have questions about), and he'll eat for life."

While I usually won't look up strategies for dungeons/boss fights beforehand, I will do so for things that I've heard before hand are hard. For instance, I didn't look up anything up to the final main scenario dungeon, but I started looking up guides for all primal HM fights before I queued up in the Duty Finder. I do agree that half of the fun is figuring out things for yourself. However, due to the toxic environment of our current endgame, I looked up guides for HM primals in order to avoid being shouted at or anything of the sort.
#42 Oct 18 2013 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,707 posts
Quote:
"Give a man a fish (in this context, telling the strategy for a single dungeon/boss fight), and he'll eat for a day."

"Teach a man to fish (in this context, suggesting that in the future, they look up guides for unknowns they might have questions about), and he'll eat for life."


No.. that's just someone else giving him a fish. A far better analogy would be teaching him how to learn boss fights quickly. Good luck with that, I've never been successful at teaching people to learn.

EDIT: You might also make the case for showing him where videos are being equivalent to introducing him to the fish market. Either way, dude still doesn't know how to fish.

Edited, Oct 18th 2013 10:39pm by Callinon
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#43 Oct 18 2013 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
****
5,745 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

I know that there are guides out there, and I did a lot of research before missions in FFXI. But I with FFXIV, I haven't felt the need to do a lot of research ahead of time.

Why the change? I guess I'm just more tolerant of failure at this point in my life, particularly when we're all playing a video game. I honestly don't mind walking into a dungeon with no prior knowledge or preconceived expectations. And if everyone else in the group is in the same boat, we'll probably wipe multiple times and time out. But I'm fine with that.

If one of the members isn't fine with that outcome, they're free to give pointers. I'm not going to ignore advice. But if someone tells me I absolutely have to stop mid stride and go look up the guide somewhere before the party moves one more step, I'll probably just disband. Players that are that demanding of random pick ups generally aren't good company in other ways. I'm not so desperate to make progress in this game that I'll bend over backwards to put up with people who make the time I spend less than enjoyable.
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#44 Oct 18 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Excellent
*
197 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:

When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.



While I agree with you that having prior knowledge ahead of time is a good thing, I personally am not going to berate someone for not having done so, For all you or I know, that person could be some 14 year old kid who loves Final Fantasy, and his Mom bought him the game for his birthday. I'm not going to rip him a new ******* for being new to MMO's and not wanting to spend time reading up on dungeons. I guess I'm just different in the sense that I have no problem being helpful to people, even after 3-4 wipes in a dungeon. For me the satisfaction of beating something that was a struggle to get through is more satisfying then finding a guide and following it verbatim through a dungeon.

You have to remember, we were all new to this at one point Now if its someone who is to lazy to help themselves or at least not take/try my advice, that's different.

Also, I'm sorry, but IMO, the whole job application analogy to me is way off the mark, I'm playing a ******* game FFS, not filling out an app for NASA. If you take it that seriously, well then, you probably shouldn't join PUG's.

For me, after 7 years of WoW and spending countless hours reading up on classes, raids, and whatever else, its just gotten to the point that I don't care to do the research anymore. Like the whole time I'm reading I just keep thinking to myself that I could just be playing, although with the experience I have, its not all that hard to figure out anymore. I still check up on things, but I just don't get that into it anymore. We did Garuda the other day, I skimmed though the video on youtube like 30 secs before we went in, the tank did a quick break down on what he was going to do, and we got it on the second try. That's about the extent that I'm willing to go anymore, unless its serious raiding. I just don't have the time to spend reading up on every little detail.

And again what Archmage Callinon said, when it comes to raiding, I am 100% behind the fact that you should know everything you can prior to entering a raid, not when running dungeons though.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#45FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 19 2013 at 1:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I never said I'd berate people. All I do is give them a link that has all the necessary information. I have the patience to find something to do for a few minutes if someone needs to figure something out. I'm just saying that it's a bad habit to get into a group of other people who are informed and waste their time because you're not.
#46 Oct 19 2013 at 3:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
"What were you doing with your life for those 45 minutes you sat in the queue?"


Leveling another job, crafting, gathering, etc
____________________________

#47 Oct 19 2013 at 4:28 AM Rating: Decent
****
4,172 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Quote:
"What were you doing with your life for those 45 minutes you sat in the queue?"


Leveling another job, crafting, gathering, etc


And just like all of the things you listed here, understanding your role in groups is a part of developing your character.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#48 Oct 19 2013 at 5:11 AM Rating: Good
Sage
****
8,779 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Queue is like a job?

You realize this is a game, right?

Maybe people want to, you know, enjoy the game without doing homework. Having gone through grad school, and all the **** that comes with it, I can tell you right now if someone wanted me to do mandatory homework to actively participate in a pleasure activity, I would respectfully tell them to go **** themselves.

See, it's a game, not a job....people play a game, and they like to challenge themselves. They like to learn by doing, or by figuring out themselves. I didn't watch a single **** video on Ifrit or Garuda; I just Q'd up and let my instincts take over. I screwed up a few times, and some people said "Hey, try this" and I did, and it worked. This is called building a community. Something that happens with player interaction that goes above and beyond a "git gud" response. Because that's what saying "go watch a video" amounts to.

****, I didn't even watch videos for Titan until I had tried it out on my own. Then I realized it was really **** complex, and I didn't want to be "that guy" who dragged the group down because of ignorance. But I had gone into Titan and given it my best shot without any prior knowledge, so I felt good about giving it the old college try. And I think most people have that same attitude; they want to challenge themselves while simultaneously seeking out stronger community ties. The game is just more enjoyable when people help each other. And help does not constitute being told to watch tutorials before you even see a fight.

As an aside, my friends and I like to "beat the protect timer" in AK. Get to demon-dog-boss-thing before the timer on protect wears off. Me and two of them Q into AK tonight with a BLM who had never been to AK. He told us he was new, we said to strap in because he was going for a ride, and we beat that thing in like 35 minutes. Not bad for a first timer. Sure, we explained fights, and he died on Demon Wall near the end, but he did well, adapted just fine, and wasn't a burden. He was an asset. And he said afterwards that he had a **** good time doing it. We've probably ruined the guy on AK now; nothing else will measure up. But that's ok, because we had fun.

You know, fun? That thing you do that's enjoyable? And not at all like work? Or homework? Unless you're that one kid in class who was all "Teacher, you forgot to give us homework tonight!" or something. ***** that kid.
____________________________
Quote:
The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#49 Oct 19 2013 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,511 posts
Quor wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
When you queue up for a dungeon, you should have already done a little research to find out what you're supposed to do. Why wouldn't you take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what to expect when you have a quest to complete?

Queue is like applying for a job. You select a role that you think you're qualified for and when 'hired', you're expected to perform that role. You don't show up to a job interview when they expect their prospective employees to have experience and just say "Train me on the job". It's a waste of their time, a waste of their money and by showing that you went out and got experience(or in this case, looked up the critical info you need) you are basically showing them you're at least serious.

If you don't take yourself seriously, you shouldn't expect other people to.


Queue is like a job?

You realize this is a game, right?

Maybe people want to, you know, enjoy the game without doing homework. Having gone through grad school, and all the sh*t that comes with it, I can tell you right now if someone wanted me to do mandatory homework to actively participate in a pleasure activity, I would respectfully tell them to go @#%^ themselves.

See, it's a game, not a job....people play a game, and they like to challenge themselves. They like to learn by doing, or by figuring out themselves. I didn't watch a single **** video on Ifrit or Garuda; I just Q'd up and let my instincts take over. I screwed up a few times, and some people said "Hey, try this" and I did, and it worked. This is called building a community. Something that happens with player interaction that goes above and beyond a "git gud" response. Because that's what saying "go watch a video" amounts to.

****, I didn't even watch videos for Titan until I had tried it out on my own. Then I realized it was really **** complex, and I didn't want to be "that guy" who dragged the group down because of ignorance. But I had gone into Titan and given it my best shot without any prior knowledge, so I felt good about giving it the old college try. And I think most people have that same attitude; they want to challenge themselves while simultaneously seeking out stronger community ties. The game is just more enjoyable when people help each other. And help does not constitute being told to watch tutorials before you even see a fight.

As an aside, my friends and I like to "beat the protect timer" in AK. Get to demon-dog-boss-thing before the timer on protect wears off. Me and two of them Q into AK tonight with a BLM who had never been to AK. He told us he was new, we said to strap in because he was going for a ride, and we beat that thing in like 35 minutes. Not bad for a first timer. Sure, we explained fights, and he died on Demon Wall near the end, but he did well, adapted just fine, and wasn't a burden. He was an asset. And he said afterwards that he had a **** good time doing it. We've probably ruined the guy on AK now; nothing else will measure up. But that's ok, because we had fun.

You know, fun? That thing you do that's enjoyable? And not at all like work? Or homework? Unless you're that one kid in class who was all "Teacher, you forgot to give us homework tonight!" or something. ***** that kid.

He's not saying it's a job, he's comparing it to a job interview. As in, if you're not prepared for it atleast a little, you're just going to waste your own time and the time of the people who you are joining. He's not saying you need to study 2-3 nights in a row to know all the little details and to get a 100/100 on your test either.

How hard is it to take 2-3 minutes of your time, open your browser, go to whatever FFXIV wiki you prefer and go; "Well, i see the final boss is a dragon who will kick you if you stand behind him. Looks like we have to hide behind pilars for move X too. Oh, and it seems some adds spawn during the fight as well. Alright! Good to know".

It's common courtesy, and it will most likely keep you (and following that your party) from dying against it because you foolishly stood behind it. Or didnt know Adds spawned that you had to kill or keep off, and all of a sudden your healer is dead. Or standing in the middle of the room when it fires off his apocalypse move.

You're being a jerk deliberately, and there's absolutely no reason for it. It's not a job, work, homework or studying. It's taking a moment to atleast see what you're up against so you and your party will be able to enjoy the dungeon, instead of being killed left and right by trivial stuff you could have found out in less than a minute.

This game isnt hard, it does not take rocket science strategy either and it's heavily dependant on groups for dungeons. One bad apple will pretty much make you unable to complete the dungeon. Dont be that apple. No one is saying you should know everything about it. Just dont ruin 60+ minutes of people's time over something that you could easily have looked up in a minute or two before heading in.
____________________________
[XI] Surivere of Valefor
[XIV] Sir Surian Bedivere of Behemoth
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2401553/
#50 Oct 19 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
*****
12,829 posts
I figured people would take issue with the job metaphor. Let's try to clarify first without going metaphor happy.

When you are playing a single player experience, your investment and enjoyment are solely your own. You can choose to go in blind, learn as you go. You can rely on guides if you get stuck, or you can outright just follow a complete walkthrough. You get the ability to do that, and only your personal enjoyment is impacted for any of those choices.

Once you move into multi-player games, especially co-op games, now your choices can ruin the experience for more than just yourself. You cannot always play the game the way you want because now you may wind up having people ditch you or confront you over what you are doing, and how what you are doing is ruining the game for them. In an MMO, this can become even more of an issue. Since you need to have teamwork on most dungeons and almost all raids, one person deciding that they can just experiment and potentially **** the entire run can ruin the time and investment of everyone else.

So let's venture back into analogy territory, shall we?

You want to start playing an organized sport, let's say hockey. Now let's say you don't know the rules, how to skate, or even the basic skills of how to play. There are plenty of ways to learn how to do this. You could join with a few friends in a just-for-fun beer league (ie a FC or LS), and learn the ropes as you go. Your friends will help you out, be more understanding than strangers, and since it's just for fun, you are less likely to wind up upsetting anyone by fumbling about. You could read up on strategies, and practice on your own, then try to join up with a more competitive league to test your skills, but they will likely want to see proof of your skills (FC's that have requirements).

Another way would be to go play at pick-up games (Duty Finder). Now, before going there, it might be good at least to learn some of the fundamentals. You would have others relying on your knowledge of at least the rules of the game, if nothing else, to be effective. If you just showed up with the proper equipment and hopped on the ice without reviewing anything at all, you could ruin the enjoyment of the entire team. You would then turn what should be fun into a chore as that entire team has to take the time to teach you everything you should have known before hopping onto the ice.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#51 Oct 19 2013 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,707 posts
Quote:
I figured people would take issue with the job metaphor. Let's try to clarify first without going metaphor happy.

When you are playing a single player experience, your investment and enjoyment are solely your own. You can choose to go in blind, learn as you go. You can rely on guides if you get stuck, or you can outright just follow a complete walkthrough. You get the ability to do that, and only your personal enjoyment is impacted for any of those choices.

Once you move into multi-player games, especially co-op games, now your choices can ruin the experience for more than just yourself. You cannot always play the game the way you want because now you may wind up having people ditch you or confront you over what you are doing, and how what you are doing is ruining the game for them. In an MMO, this can become even more of an issue. Since you need to have teamwork on most dungeons and almost all raids, one person deciding that they can just experiment and potentially @#%^ the entire run can ruin the time and investment of everyone else.


I've used that same explanation when talking about raiding guild applications. It's spot on in that context.

Where I took issue was the idea that people should be expected to put in the same level of dedication while leveling up and doing dungeons. Dungeons are where you learn. Honestly, if a leveling dungeon can't be completed by someone playing imperfectly, then the dungeon is too hard.

That being said, imperfect play should not be mistaken for incompetent play. A tank wearing a swimsuit who can neither take a hit nor hold hate is a burden on his team. A healer who will only dps is going to be the direct cause of failure.

Players need to know the fundamentals of how their job works. And the game does its best to teach that, both through class quests that highlight these functions and through guildhests that attempt to teach party play. There will always be people who ignore these lessons, whether deliberately or not, and there isn't a lot you can do about that besides kick them (soon please).

My concern here is about an unreasonable standard being applied at the wrong stage of the game. I should not have to watch a video guide on Halatali in order to qualify to do Halatali. I should, however, understand basically how my class works and apply that knowledge against what I see in the dungeon. For an experienced MMO player, that's an easy trick we've been doing for years. For a new player, it'll probably take a few attempts to get it right.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 103 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (103)