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lvl 40+ dungeons questionFollow

#1 Oct 20 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Sub-Default
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do you really get 100k+ in dungeons at that lvl? i find that hard to believe as i dont think anyone would be grinding fate for 11k exp every2-5 minutes not ot mention the wait time in between fats if dungeons wer throwing out 6 digit exp right?
#2 Oct 20 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Right around there anyway. But what's hard to understand?

Dungeon = 100k xp = 45 minute queue time + 30-50 minute dungeon = about 63k per hour
FATE grind = 11k xp = 5 minute wait + 5 minute fight = 66k per hour

And that's assuming you complete the dungeon (which 40+ is not a guarantee). FATEs give more exp and have a significantly higher success rate, while at the same time have a lower investment of time and dedication. For instance if you need to get up and go to the bathroom while FATE grinding, you can do that.. if you need to walk the dog, go ahead. If you do that in a dungeon, expect to get yelled at (or kicked later).
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#3DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Oct 20 2013 at 10:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) actually if dungeon gives 100k dungeon have a 90min limit... most dungeons ive done have 30 mins left on the clock after completion thats 60 mins total, soo wouldn't that be 100k an hour? also as for the wait time.... that why you fate grind while you wait... s
#4 Oct 20 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Some dungeons take more time, some take less, I tried to split the difference there. It's also not 100k exp even, it fluctuates depending on how much trash is killed and whether your group completes the dungeon or not, and which dungeon it is.

Overall FATEs are as good or better than dungeons for pure xp per hour and have a much higher rate of return on time investment than dungeons.

I don't like it, personally. I wish dungeons were better, but they're not.
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#5 Oct 20 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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None of the dungeons should take you an hour assuming the participants are on the ball. The kicker, of course, will be queue times.

Far as dungeon rewards go, I'm actually starting to think the gil generation they added to the 50 ones is a bit too much. 3k or so for a run might not sound like much, but it also lessens incentive to craft and gather when you factor in wait times and competition at the AH. The leveling process for dungeons already doles out superior gear for the common player and obviously good stuff come endgame. HQ crafted goods and materia would simply require more than most would deem worth the expense. Basically, I'm of the mind we need more reason to be seeing people in the open world and not making dungeons/instances unquestionably superior for every facet of the game's progression.
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#6 Oct 20 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
None of the dungeons should take you an hour assuming the participants are on the ball. The kicker, of course, will be queue times.

Far as dungeon rewards go, I'm actually starting to think the gil generation they added to the 50 ones is a bit too much. 3k or so for a run might not sound like much, but it also lessens incentive to craft and gather when you factor in wait times and competition at the AH. The leveling process for dungeons already doles out superior gear for the common player and obviously good stuff come endgame. HQ crafted goods and materia would simply require more than most would deem worth the expense. Basically, I'm of the mind we need more reason to be seeing people in the open world and not making dungeons/instances unquestionably superior for every facet of the game's progression.



I feel the opposite, with the new influx of gill I'm more likely to buy hq items and level 3matria and other items from crafters. Before I would just keep grinding and skip over certain upgrades cuz I simple could not afford them, now after running a ton of ak I can gear one job with dl and another with hq rings and melds I feel everyone wins
#7 Oct 20 2013 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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domice wrote:

I feel the opposite, with the new influx of gill I'm more likely to buy hq items and level 3matria and other items from crafters. Before I would just keep grinding and skip over certain upgrades cuz I simple could not afford them, now after running a ton of ak I can gear one job with dl and another with hq rings and melds I feel everyone wins


I also feel this way after the gill drop adjust in dungeon, before that I never want to buy anything from marketplace (being poor = can't afford anything worthwhile)
#8 Oct 20 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Any non-star craft that doesn't involve fishing materials is pretty much inconsequential in price, though. And as more people level multiple 50 crafts, the value of both NQs and HQs will continue to drop. It may be good for buyers, but eventually you're going to see people prefer dungeon running for guaranteed and instant gil over taking the time to harvest materials or spend cash to make a pittance back. Demand simply doesn't match the supply in a lot of cases.

Then again, I'm just sitting here with a couple retainers full of mixed goods from farming and crafting that just won't sell. Adjusting prices every couple hours is getting old.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 6:36pm by Seriha
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#9 Oct 20 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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If what you say is true, then as people drop out of crafting the people that stay with it will profit due to lack of supply. I always felt that the reason the prices at the ah were always dropping was due to people not having a lot of gill or a steady flow of gill
#10 Oct 20 2013 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Won't really happen as long as dungeon content continues to dole out superior loot, especially at endgame. People are getting "free" gear, don't have to dump gil on materia to improve them, and are now making actual gil on top of that. This doesn't even account for those who spend tomes on the craft mats for additional gil, which a crafter will need to generate their own gil to finance. This is basically a roundabout way of saying a healthy economy is not one run off a few endgame items.

I know some like to say the high end HQ gear with melds competes with AF2 and Allagan, but we're grossly underestimating expenses that will only get worse as crafters become more desperate. Best case scenario you wind up with an economy like XI where the only time you profit is with HQs, and even if that would be luck and with the few items people buy.

But overall, things really aren't that hard to make. I certainly don't think the leveling process should be a monumental grind, both on the gil and EXP front, but what purpose does the open world serve when you can now self-sustain AND profit easily through the DF? Would people ***** if FATEs got a gil buff as well as ILVL bumps on GC gear, too? Or might we see the tired "dungeons take skill, so it's justified!" card? This is one of those dreaded "balance" scenarios. When triple dipping in the reward pool, you've gotta average. Otherwise you risk snuffing out the alternative activities.

Just tone things back slightly to cover the projected expense of gear wear with maybe one death on top. That's all I'd propose. Of course, I'd still like to see durability removed from the game entirely, as that's also another expense crafters/gatherers face while NPC values are ****.
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#11 Oct 20 2013 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Assuming 3k per run and a run takes, what, 20-30min? You're looking at 9k gil generated per hour, at best.

<notimpressed.jpg>

Besides, fewer crafters means less competition and less undercutting.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 12:14am by Pickins
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#12 Oct 21 2013 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
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I was completing the final levels on Miner over the weekend in Camp Bluefog, specifically Basilisk Eggs as they were selling really well on the Wards. Unfortunately the price halved over the course of two days, so I'm now sitting on hundreds of them. I'm hoping that towards the end of the week the price will creep back up (banking on most people farming over the weekend and loading the wards), but yeah, there are no guarantees, and you have to be vigilant and patient.
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#13 Oct 21 2013 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
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Besides, fewer crafters means less competition and less undercutting.

On its own, yes. However, the issue is that there is very little incentive to craft due to dungeon loot superiority and the hassle applied to generating profit.
Pickins wrote:
Assuming 3k per run and a run takes, what, 20-30min? You're looking at 9k gil generated per hour, at best.

<notimpressed.jpg>

Yes, I jumbled your post a bit, but here's an example of what I'm talking about.

3 days ago I made an HQ Electrum Choker from NQ materials, which is basically BiS for a crafting neck at 50 for the moment. After roughly 68 hours, it sold for 6501g after fees. But let's break down its cost further. The craft itself requires 2 electrum ingots and a raptor leather, as well as 6 wind and fire shards. I'm going to document all material expenses, though.

1 wind shard = 30g, 26 needed, 780g total
1 fire shard = 25g, 6 needed, 150g total
1 earth shard = 35g, 5 needed, 175g total
1 electrum ore = 35g, 16 needed, 560g total
1 raptor skin = 250g
1 black alumen = 25g
Total "craft if yourself cost" = 1940g

6501 - 1940 = 4561 profit.

Sweet, right? Well, let's introduce that gil per hour metric.

4561 / 68 = 67.07g per hour.

This is ONLY if you can make everything yourself. You'll need leather in the 40s to make the raptor leather. Otherwise you can figure the cost of earth crystals, skin, and alumen, with a little more on top. Realistically, I am far better off boring myself to death in farm 300 shards in an hour, selling them much more quickly, and seeing more profit. But this creates a catch 22 where if everyone abandons crafts and gathers, you oversupply materials and their costs diminish. This ebb and flow will not be smooth and all it takes is one person to crash a market. Which is basically what happened with my choker because it was at 10k when I originally made it.

Keep in mind I was referencing a BiS item above. I could sing the same sad tale for other jewelry in the 40-50 range. Perhaps Goldsmithing has it worst of the durable crafts at the moment? Hard to say. We could try to say, "Well, you have 40 sale slots, so your per hour could be around 2700g if you filled them all!" And hey, I'd be down with that if we didn't have to worry about competition or basically camping the retainer to restock. I'm of the mind that doesn't really make an enjoyable game, though. Things only get cheaper and less profitable as you climb down the material scale, however. Exceptions might be had in things that require diremite webs, but they're an anomaly as a needed material you can't gather.

2 dungeon monsters, however, will match that gil per hour. ****, the choker NPCs for 81 gil. One pull. Less time to collect and synth everything up. And some wonder why I question the incentive to craft? You can't smoosh everyone into crafting HQ AF for profit. That's just inviting crashes. Yet someone could run each dungeon enough to gear themselves up perfectly fine for the next. And let's consider something like housing coming in the future with deeds starting at 850k. Do you really want to play a game where you creep toward that at 67g/hr?

But if people really want to leave dungeons as they are now, two things need to happen. The first is to add more synths at all level ranges to rival their dungeon counterparts without materia or needing dungeon drops/currency. The second is to improve NPC sale costs significantly. For my given example, I'd actually say at least 5x higher. That way if I literally spent an hour gathering everything myself, I could convert them into instant gil. Let's say 30 synths' worth in that span. Then you can let all the other little obscene gil sinks do their thing. "B-But the RMT!" Yeah, you can't let them rule the economy out of fear. ****, that's part of the problem now with current NPC costs on everything.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 6:36am by Seriha
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#14 Oct 21 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I think you're under the false assumption that crafting is supposed to be profitable lol.

Also, you're 67 gil per hour metric is a bit wonky, since making one item, even if you craft up all the ingredients takes maybe 5 minutes. So, the way I look at it, I'm selling to make a "spike" profit at one point, but I do lots of other stuff to keep the coffers filling up. Leves, gathering (shards), farming mats, etc.



Edited, Oct 21st 2013 8:03am by LebargeX
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#15 Oct 21 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Let me preface this by saying that I agree that crafted gear should be more useful. The statement I take issue with is your assertion that 3k gil per dungeon run is too much and will lessen the incentive to craft.

Seriha wrote:

Yes, I jumbled your post a bit, but here's an example of what I'm talking about.

3 days ago I made an HQ Electrum Choker from NQ materials, which is basically BiS for a crafting neck at 50 for the moment. After roughly 68 hours, it sold for 6501g after fees. But let's break down its cost further. The craft itself requires 2 electrum ingots and a raptor leather, as well as 6 wind and fire shards. I'm going to document all material expenses, though.

1 wind shard = 30g, 26 needed, 780g total
1 fire shard = 25g, 6 needed, 150g total
1 earth shard = 35g, 5 needed, 175g total
1 electrum ore = 35g, 16 needed, 560g total
1 raptor skin = 250g
1 black alumen = 25g
Total "craft if yourself cost" = 1940g

6501 - 1940 = 4561 profit.

Sweet, right? Well, let's introduce that gil per hour metric.

4561 / 68 = 67.07g per hour.

snip...


Wait, you're factoring the time to sell into the gil/hr?

That comparison only works if people could somehow run dungeons while offline or while doing something else in game, because other than adjusting prices, once it's on the market, no further action is necessary on your part. The gil/hr should only include the time it takes to craft the item and place it for sale. To calculate otherwise is disingenuous.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 11:37am by Pickins
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#16 Oct 21 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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The gil isn't in your hands until the sale concludes. Yes, it is a very important factor to the equation. If NPC vendoring were an option, then sure, the time spent crafting would be the sole factor. It's basically an aspect of opportunity cost. When Choice A is more profitable than Choice B, why do B? That's what I'm calling into question by making crafting the inferior choice, because then we get gems like...
Quote:
I think you're under the false assumption that crafting is supposed to be profitable lol.

Crafters are not a charity outfit. Personal self-sufficiency? Sure. Yet, why even bother having crafting and all its related content if it's destined to be the Choice B?

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 12:15pm by Seriha
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#17 Oct 21 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
The gil isn't in your hands until the sale concludes. Yes, it is a very important factor to the equation. If NPC vendoring were an option, then sure, the time spent crafting would be the sole factor. It's basically an aspect of opportunity cost.


It's only an aspect of the opportunity cost if you are unable to do anything else while the items are up for sale.

Instead, after they're placed, you have the opportunity to do any number of other activities, including running the dungeons for the 3k gil that you decry. These are not mutually exclusive options, thus can't be considered as part of the opportunity cost.
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#18 Oct 21 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Crafted goods will continue to deflate. Short of SE adjusting dungeons, their reward will remain constant. As that deflation continues, the dungeon running becomes the smarter choice. And since dungeon loot matches or outshines straight of the box, we get the whammy of crafted goods not looking as appealing. Dungeon running will also improve in speed as people become better geared. Running with friends can basically eliminate queue times, too. Do WP in 25 minutes? You're looking at an estimated 7200 an hour. Even if you only do that for 3 hours, that becomes 21600g generated, and over a 24 hour span factoring in time, it's 900g an hour even if you only worked those 3. There is nothing you or I could do to force more people buy more crafted items. Even my 6501 in the same 24 hours is 271g. Diversifying and selling multiple types of items just means even more time at the broker and calculating worth. Again, continued deflation doesn't help the crafter here.
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#19 Oct 21 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Crafted goods will continue to deflate. Short of SE adjusting dungeons, their reward will remain constant. As that deflation continues, the dungeon running becomes the smarter choice. And since dungeon loot matches or outshines straight of the box, we get the whammy of crafted goods not looking as appealing. Dungeon running will also improve in speed as people become better geared. Running with friends can basically eliminate queue times, too. Do WP in 25 minutes? You're looking at an estimated 7200 an hour. Even if you only do that for 3 hours, that becomes 21600g generated, and over a 24 hour span factoring in time, it's 900g an hour even if you only worked those 3. There is nothing you or I could do to force more people buy more crafted items. Even my 6501 in the same 24 hours is 271g. Diversifying and selling multiple types of items just means even more time at the broker and calculating worth. Again, continued deflation doesn't help the crafter here.


I think you're forgetting the time investment required to "purchase" gear from dungeons. How many times do you have to run a dungeon to 1.) see the drop, 2.) get the drop. Multiply that times the number of slots you want to fill.

Now, go to the MB, buy everything you need, run the dungeon once to clear it from your quest log and move on.

Supply is only 1/2 of the equation, especially when you consider the sheer amount of ***-hattery going on in dungeon runs right now.
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#20 Oct 21 2013 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd venture a guess the average player could gear themselves in full DL before they could craft themselves up to the full ILVL70 stuff in today's market. Yes, there's some RNG to the WP/AK specific gear, but you're always building tomes on top. Need lotting pretty much guarantees you getting an item as a tank or healer, too. And while there are certainly sour grapes in the public party pool, it doesn't diminish what's possible when running with friends. Rewards are simply too lopsided right now. ****, consider there is no tome equivalent currency for crafting to deck yourself out with Relic/Allagan tier craft stuff via turn-ins. That alone would add life to the economy.
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#21 Oct 21 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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I still think crafting is a very good option for someone, such as myself, who can't commit long periods of time to this game. I work and go to school have a wife and a social life. If even I where to get a desired dungeon drop every other run, which I don't usually get, that is still two separate 1.5 hour chunks of time I need. With crafting options, I can still gear up fine and level decently via fates even if I'm only logging in for a half hour at a time.
#22 Oct 21 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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The pre-50 market is casual friendly, as I've said earlier (a lot of the time more shards go into a synth than other ingredients, even). The potential 400k or so gil you can make simply by completing the story line doesn't hurt, either. But I'd also like to point out that equipment rewarded by quests also have hurt the economy. It's when you hit endgame and decide you want to gear yourself past a certain level that the investment requirements ramp up. Take, for example, the last carpenter quest. You must not only synth an HQ bow, but you must also put a piece of materia in it that cost 40k when I did the quest. How quickly do you think you'd make 40k with your crafting alone? Does that period of time satisfy you, especially without considering other expenses you'd maybe pick up along the way like teleport and repair fees? Or was your first response to maybe wince and cringe? That's what I worry about when people get so remiss about crafting while advocating dungeons should be even better still.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 1:26pm by Seriha
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#23 Oct 21 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
The pre-50 market is casual friendly, as I've said earlier (a lot of the time more shards go into a synth than other ingredients, even). The potential 400k or so gil you can make simply by completing the story line doesn't hurt, either. But I'd also like to point out that equipment rewarded by quests also have hurt the economy. It's when you hit endgame and decide you want to gear yourself past a certain level that the investment requirements ramp up. Take, for example, the last carpenter quest. You must not only synth an HQ bow, but you must also put a piece of materia in it that cost 40k when I did the quest. How quickly do you think you'd make 40k with your crafting alone? Does that period of time satisfy you, especially without considering other expenses you'd maybe pick up along the way like teleport and repair fees? Or was your first response to maybe wince and cringe? That's what I worry about when people get so remiss about crafting while advocating dungeons should be even better still.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 1:26pm by Seriha

While the initial investment is a bit high, you only have to do it once. Then, you can make HQ bows, spears, staves, shoes, spinning/mudstone wheels, etc. So, now with one craft, you can make stuff for at least 5 specific classes/jobs.
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