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#1 Oct 21 2013 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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So I've seen this more and more as I work on my first relic (whm).

The end game community in here is so super elitest that it feels like everything is a catch 22. For those not aware of a catch 22, it is where you must have something in order to do something that grants you said thing. EG you must have a relic, before you can join a group to do the dungeon (AK) you need to get your relic.

My favorite are CM speed runs, the second to last story dungeon. You must have relic/full DL jewlery before people will let you join a level 50 dungeon that a whm can tank the whole thing with just AF armor.

Im not sure about other servers, but Hyperion and Sargantus are super bad about this.

Titant looking for people who know the fight/have experience/already have relic
Ak/WP/CM/Hydra - must have relic (or relic +1), and full gear, and already completed these dungeons.

The thing is, all of these fights were tuned to be beaten with AF armor (up to titan) and titan requires some jewlery, and ifirit/garuda/GC weapon but other than that they are all beatable without these stupid requirements.

Needless to say I got my first AK run done for my relic, by lieing and saying it wasn't my first time (which they figured out when we entered the last boss and i got the mapping achievement), and just reading the guide online so i wasn't clueless....You know what happened....nothing....we cleared the zone in like 25 minutes, Only died once to the bard backing up and agroing a Dahulan he couldnt see. Demon wall died at first set of adds, last boss died before second add died. Nothing terrible happened, but i had no relic, just af gear + hq jewelry, and a lvl 50 gc weapon.

So why the catch 22 with such elitism....this wreaks of the FF11 endgame back when only certain jobs could come to merit parties, even though any would work.
#2 Oct 21 2013 at 6:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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These people are what I like to technically refer to as "**************** The trick to enjoying XIV I have found is to avoid these "*************** and play with nice people. Find yourself a nice FC and enjoy the benefits of playing with nice people.
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#3 Oct 21 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
So why the catch 22 with such elitism....this wreaks of the FF11 endgame back when only certain jobs could come to merit parties, even though any would work.


**Flashbacks to being a new Warrior XI getting shouted at for not having Ninja subjob and using a 2H axe**
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#4 Oct 21 2013 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Well the short answer is efficiency.

The long answer is "Once you get a relic and understand how incredible boring it is to run the same dungeon over and over and over you want to do it as fast as possible, and sad to say if others in your group does not have a relic it will slow you down, period."

And yes I have a relic or two, and yes I love speedruns with "relic onry" because it lets me get back to doing the fun stuff in the game faster.

Simple truth.
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#5 Oct 21 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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i don't understand the problem here, just use duty finder/go with FCmates
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#6 Oct 21 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would say go with FC or DF too. DF Can't discriminate and your FC shouldn't either. At the least they should have a night to help people get the items they need to do these other fights. Mine does.
#7 Oct 21 2013 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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I know at least one of those servers is a Legacy sever, and it's one of the reasons why I didn't continue on a Legacy server.

I would think about transferring to a low-pop server, perhaps, using the DF more, and finding a nice FC.

#8 Oct 21 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Well both are legacy, and you cant transfer off of them.

I dont have a FC due to limited play time, and I ultimate got AK done with duty finder, but after having been dropped 3x due to not having a relic.
#9 Oct 21 2013 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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SolomonGrundy wrote:
dustinfoley wrote:
So why the catch 22 with such elitism....this wreaks of the FF11 endgame back when only certain jobs could come to merit parties, even though any would work.


**Flashbacks to being a new Warrior XI getting shouted at for not having Ninja subjob and using a 2H axe**


And then Samurai got some very cool abilities pre-level 37 that made it the ultimate sub-job for WAR... and Gaxe got boosted too so that anyone dual-wielding axes with sub-job of NIN would get laughed at...

To quote Adam Sandler, "They're all going to laugh at you!"
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#10 Oct 21 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent


Woohooo, I am getting close to that point in the story! Can't wait until the fireworks when I watch my cutscenes, ha.
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#11 Oct 21 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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This is new and exciting....
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#12 Oct 21 2013 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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The problem is kind of simple. Nobody reads anything. They mumble the words to themselves, but they really don't take the time to understand them. The OP itself is evidence of that.

Take this for example:

"My favorite are CM speed runs, the second to last story dungeon. You must have relic/full DL jewlery before people will let you join a level 50 dungeon that a whm can tank the whole thing with just AF armor."

This is not a dig at the OP specifically because I see this kind of straw man very often, in fact I think we're on a first name basis.

This is somewhat faulty. If you start off by indicating that it's a CM speed run than you're already admitting it isn't a simple completion run, which is a different animal. Once you've accepted and understood that the group forming up is specifically looking for a CM speed run then all requirements for a simple completion run no longer apply. This is akin to someone being perturbed they can't drive their stock 1990 honda civic in an F1 race. It's a car, it has four wheels, what's your problem? It's not just about getting a car with 4 wheels around a track, there's slightly more to it than that.

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#13 Oct 21 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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I don't mind newbies in stuff like AK and WP, I do cringe when I see people show up for Garuda in full AF, company weapon and lv 30 accessories. Duty Finder will tell you all sorts of ugly things until you learn how fights are done. Some people have fought Ifrit/Garuda/Titan for the 50th time without seeing any drop they want and having someone who are new to a vital role will probably be less successful. However it's really nice to be praised for doing a good job after waddling through pools of mud before finally learning how to do the fights right.
#14 Oct 21 2013 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gotta Ignore-The-Fools and keep going. You will find awesome players that are also looking for gear upgrades.

I have been having a great time, a double-great time playing endgame content, even with Duty Finder groups! As soon as I realized that the impatient players are just looking at it form a different angle, and players looking for upgrades are doing EXACTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING, then the BS didn't bother me anymore.

Some players have run theses things 100+ times and their patience with first-timers is thin. Some people are just ****** But not everybody, not even most people. What I find is most people are awesome. The jerks just happen to be the loudest.

So just go do the thing you want to do. You will get a good group full of helpful players in no time!



#15 Oct 21 2013 at 9:35 AM Rating: Default
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Furiousnixon wrote:

This is somewhat faulty. If you start off by indicating that it's a CM speed run than you're already admitting it isn't a simple completion run, which is a different animal. Once you've accepted and understood that the group forming up is specifically looking for a CM speed run then all requirements for a simple completion run no longer apply. This is akin to someone being perturbed they can't drive their stock 1990 honda civic in an F1 race. It's a car, it has four wheels, what's your problem? It's not just about getting a car with 4 wheels around a track, there's slightly more to it than that.




Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?

Whats that I cant hear you... WHM needs relic? For what? The stuff doesnt hit hard, and Holy + regen is enough to let me tank as well as any war/pld would on the adds.

All you need for a speed run is people who have done it and are willing to skip cutscenes and go balls to the wall. You dont need anything else so you are just being a ****... Sorry bro!
#16 Oct 21 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Default
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Also your analogy is stupid,

Saying you must have relics for speed runs in CM is like bringing an F1 car onto a free way during rush hour traffic. You have more engine than you need and are just wasting everyones time.
#17 Oct 21 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
If you start off by indicating that it's a CM speed run than you're already admitting it isn't a simple completion run, which is a different animal.


I agree; however, it is impossible to make this kind of agreement if you're using the Duty Finder.

It would be like having a rule that you only date blonds, but then you get set up on a blind date, and, turns out, the girl is a brunette. If you're not satisfied with the makeup of the date, you shouldn't ask the brunette to leave in hopes that a blond comes walking up... that's silly. Instead, you be the one to leave the dinner date (but not before ordering the lady a drink and picking up the tab).
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#18 Oct 21 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Simply a case of two different goals. You want to just get a clear but they are forming for a speedrun. No one thinks you need full DL and relic to simply clear AK but to run it as fast as possible to farm Tomestones they want the party to be overgeared. Just everyone having a relic vs the grand company weapon makes kills go much faster. Add Darklight + instead of AF and the need for healing goes way down. If I don't have to heal I can Holy DD. This shaves many minutes off of a run. A speed run is a 4 minute Garuda where you completely skip phases. You just cannot do that in AF.

Hopefully the future Party Recruitment Bulletin Board will alleviate some of these problems.

Quote:
A: There have been situations where frustration arises when players with different play styles and objectives are matched together with the Duty Finder.

Therefore, we would like to make it possible to play with people who have the same goal as you.

Party Recruitment Bulletin Board
We will be making it so you can recruit party members through a bulletin board-like feature where you will be able to indicate your objective. For example, clearing the main scenario, relaxed party play, putting emphasis on speed and efficiency, etc.

For those that would like to participate in certain content, they’ll be able to form parties with players who have the same goal.

Updates to the Duty Finder
We’ll be having a special edition of the Letter from the Producer LIVE about the details for this, but we’ll be making it so matching occurs on a categorical basis, such as for leveling dungeons, high level dungeons, story, guildhests, and other content. Also, we’ll be making it so you can obtain Allagan tomestomes for each category once a day.
From http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/108630-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-IX-Q-A-Updates?p=1452681&viewfull=1#post1452681

Also, there are plenty of Linkshells for people with limited play time on Legacy servers. I should know, I'm in two of them and help people like you out all the time. People are out there whose playstyle matches yours, you just have to find them.

If you don't want to party with speedrunners then build your own party.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 12:05pm by Yelta
#19 Oct 21 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Default
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Your not reading, i wasnt going for a clear, i just wanted to grind CM for tomes.
#20 Oct 21 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
Your not reading, i wasnt going for a clear, i just wanted to grind CM for tomes.


Nowhere in your post do you say you are trying to farm for tomes. Many of your comments tend to hint that you are trying for a normal clear.

In any case you can either roll the dice with DF or build your own party. You don't get to pick how other people build their parties. All you can do is try to play with people who want to play the way you do.
#21 Oct 21 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
Your not reading, i wasnt going for a clear, i just wanted to grind CM for tomes.


If you are trying to grind but have crappy gear, you have to bite the bullet and grind in DF, or have an active FC. DF is not nearly as bad as people think. Once you have good gear then you can go on local shout speed runs. Speed runs aren't speedy without good gear, its that simple.
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#22 Oct 21 2013 at 11:13 AM Rating: Default
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Okay yelta i will prove you are not reading...

Quote:
Needless to say I got my first AK run done for my relic,Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?


First post, clearly indicates main story is done and am working on relic


Quote:
Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?

All you need for a speed run is people who have done it and are willing to skip cutscenes and go balls to the wall. You dont need anything else so you are just being a ****... Sorry bro!


Second post (right before yours) that you clearlly didnt read, I am talking about speed runs, no where do i say for story.



Furiousnixon made the (wrong) assumption i was trying to join a speed run from my story clear of CM. See this lack of reading is what perpetuates miss information.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 1:15pm by dustinfoley
#23 Oct 21 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
If you start off by indicating that it's a CM speed run than you're already admitting it isn't a simple completion run, which is a different animal.


I agree; however, it is impossible to make this kind of agreement if you're using the Duty Finder.

It would be like having a rule that you only date blonds, but then you get set up on a blind date, and, turns out, the girl is a brunette. If you're not satisfied with the makeup of the date, you shouldn't ask the brunette to leave in hopes that a blond comes walking up... that's silly. Instead, you be the one to leave the dinner date (but not before ordering the lady a drink and picking up the tab).



Wait wait... leave DF out of it. Sorry. I don't explicitly state it enough but I don't care about DF. That's a mess if only because it prevents any form of common goal being communicated before being dropped into the dungeon other than the implicit one of completing it. You can't really have a useful discussion about DF because it is what it is and you can't form any sort of expectations at all when using it because of it's anonymous and entirely mute nature, again, short of the implicit goal of completion.

And you're right about your analogy. I am only referring to parties forming in /shout. I can't comment on DF more than to say 'you get what you get' or 'beggars can't be choosers'.
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#24 Oct 21 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
Okay yelta i will prove you are not reading...

Quote:
Needless to say I got my first AK run done for my relic,Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?


First post, clearly indicates main story is done and am working on relic


Quote:
Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?

All you need for a speed run is people who have done it and are willing to skip cutscenes and go balls to the wall. You dont need anything else so you are just being a ****... Sorry bro!


Second post (right before yours) that you clearlly didnt read, I am talking about speed runs, no where do i say for story.



Furiousnixon made the (wrong) assumption i was trying to join a speed run from my story clear of CM. See this lack of reading is what perpetuates miss information.

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 1:15pm by dustinfoley


I actually didn't even consider what part of what you were doing as it doesn't matter. The people forming those parties are setting the expectations based on what they want them to be or what they feel is adequate (for them) for the runs over and above simple completion. There is no standard set of expectations here as to what constitutes bare minimum for speed runs, it varies based on the group leader but after all is said and done it's their choice. Is that "fair", maybe not, probably not. "Explain to me why I need X" also doesn't matter. Nobody is owed anything here. The party leader doesn't owe you an invite or explanation even because you've backed them into a corner to justify why they're only looking for players meeting certain criteria. I don't think anyone is arguing that you could very well accomplish it with less, but the people creating those parties don't care and aren't obliged to be what you construe as reasonable with their requirements.

As I said your argument isn't uncommon but what are you really saying? "I demand you justify yourself to me and if you can't and I win the argument then you must invite me to the party you're forming." ?
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#25 Oct 21 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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what happened, zam? what happened?
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#26 Oct 21 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
Llester wrote:
what happened, zam? what happened?


Generation Me.
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