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#27 Oct 21 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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dustinfoley wrote:
Okay yelta i will prove you are not reading...
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Needless to say I got my first AK run done for my relic,Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?

First post, clearly indicates main story is done and am working on relic.

First post, clearly indicates you are doing the content for relic, no where says you are attempting a speedrun for farming Tomestones.
Repeating content does not = a speedrun.
dustinfoley wrote:

Explain to me why i need more than AF + lvl 50 gc weapons to speed run a dungeon that I end up tanking the adds in all of the bosses for?

All you need for a speed run is people who have done it and are willing to skip cutscenes and go balls to the wall. You dont need anything else so you are just being a ****... Sorry bro!

That is not a speedrun as the guys shouting for relic +1 are doing it. It might be a fast run but not what they are looking for. We are talking runs well under 20 minutes for some content, 8-10 minute WP, 4 minute Garuda HM. These runs are not possible without being heavily overgeared for the content. I don't care how good you press buttons the math says higher stats = faster clear time.
dustinfoley wrote:
Second post (right before yours) that you clearlly didnt read, I am talking about speed runs, no where do i say for story.

Nope, I didn't read it as I was typing my own response to the OP when it posted...

The fact still remains you do not get to dictate the requirements others have for their parties. Your only choices are to DF and hope for the best or build your own party with like minded people.

I realize I am coming off as an elitist but I don't actually require these for my AK runs. My sister is a pally and I whm and we queue up for AK using DF and just work with whatever we get. Sometimes we speedrun but I actually prefer the runs where someone is new or the whole group just feels like pulling each group one at a time and chatting and such. I like taking my time when I have time to take. But if I join a speedrun I make sure I am geared up for it, eat my food and run run run.


Edited, Oct 21st 2013 2:18pm by Yelta
#28 Oct 21 2013 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Furiousnixon wrote:
I actually didn't even consider what part of what you were doing as it doesn't matter. The people forming those parties are setting the expectations based on what they want them to be or what they feel is adequate (for them) for the runs over and above simple completion. There is no standard set of expectations here as to what constitutes bare minimum for speed runs, it varies based on the group leader but after all is said and done it's their choice. Is that "fair", maybe not, probably not. "Explain to me why I need X" also doesn't matter. Nobody is owed anything here. The party leader doesn't owe you an invite or explanation even because you've backed them into a corner to justify why they're only looking for players meeting certain criteria. I don't think anyone is arguing that you could very well accomplish it with less, but the people creating those parties don't care and aren't obliged to be what you construe as reasonable with their requirements.

As I said your argument isn't uncommon but what are you really saying? "I demand you justify yourself to me and if you can't and I win the argument then you must invite me to the party you're forming." ?

This exactly. It doesn't even matter why the party leader has certain standards. It could be female Miqo'te redheads only, whatever. If I don't fit the criteria then I don't go with that party.
#29 Oct 21 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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No one else finds it funny that the OP harps about other people being elitists in-game but is acting like one himself in his posts?
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#30 Oct 21 2013 at 3:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yelta wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
I actually didn't even consider what part of what you were doing as it doesn't matter. The people forming those parties are setting the expectations based on what they want them to be or what they feel is adequate (for them) for the runs over and above simple completion. There is no standard set of expectations here as to what constitutes bare minimum for speed runs, it varies based on the group leader but after all is said and done it's their choice. Is that "fair", maybe not, probably not. "Explain to me why I need X" also doesn't matter. Nobody is owed anything here. The party leader doesn't owe you an invite or explanation even because you've backed them into a corner to justify why they're only looking for players meeting certain criteria. I don't think anyone is arguing that you could very well accomplish it with less, but the people creating those parties don't care and aren't obliged to be what you construe as reasonable with their requirements.

As I said your argument isn't uncommon but what are you really saying? "I demand you justify yourself to me and if you can't and I win the argument then you must invite me to the party you're forming." ?

This exactly. It doesn't even matter why the party leader has certain standards. It could be female Miqo'te redheads only, whatever. If I don't fit the criteria then I don't go with that party.


This right here! Why does it matter that people making party with certain requirements? Sometimes me and my FC make a CM run with Miqo'te + relic + swimsuit only (no we did not use DF), we did it for fun.
#31 Oct 21 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
No one else finds it funny that the OP harps about other people being elitists in-game but is acting like one himself in his posts?



this whole thread is ******* ridiculous tbh. but yeah. that.
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#32 Oct 21 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
No one else finds it funny that the OP harps about other people being elitists in-game but is acting like one himself in his posts?

I know I'm of the mind that kindness goes out the door when people want to discriminate against you from the get-go. It's not like this problem is new to MMOs, though, and it's ultimately endorsed by devs when maintaining a prestige element of progression without alternatives for people who don't want to put up with the ****** social atmosphere. Playing the moral high ground either gets you nowhere or significantly slows your progress. But tolerating this **** also rewards their bad behavior. That can be enough to reach a boiling point, and doubly so if you've seen this happen to multiple games like I have. The same old tired justification attempts still don't make people on the receiving end feel better, either.
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#33 Oct 21 2013 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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My favorite are CM speed runs, the second to last story dungeon. You must have relic/full DL jewlery before people will let you join a level 50 dungeon that a whm can tank the whole thing with just AF armor.
I don't agree with this being a catch 22, the problem is that a speed run in its very definition requires certain elements to be speedy (as the name implies), otherwise you simply have a CM run, while a team in full AF lvl 49 weapons can perfectly complete that dungeon it won't be as fast as a full DL/relic team. it isn't a catch 22 because you have a myriad of ways to farm ToP and CM speed run is not a requirement for your relic.

Perhaps what you mean is that as a WHM( or healer in general) you don't need a relic to join a speed run, or rather not having a relic won't slow a speed run, while it maybe true as a leader I would rather avoid complains from other people in the group by inviting a person without a relic, since I'm basically demanding that from everyone else.

People shouting for relics in order to join a Hydra run are merely asking for help, because anyone getting inside hydra with a relic is literally getting nothing out of the run.

Although I agree that the game atmosphere shows some elitism that we as a community should not accept at any extent.
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#34 Oct 22 2013 at 2:35 AM Rating: Default
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What year were you using doing this? You have to remember at one point war was over powered. Nothing could take hate from it and you needed that sub.
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#35 Oct 22 2013 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:


Needless to say I got my first AK run done for my relic, by lieing and saying it wasn't my first time (which they figured out when we entered the last boss and i got the mapping achievement), and just reading the guide online so i wasn't clueless....You know what happened....nothing....we cleared the zone in like 25 minutes, Only died once to the bard backing up and agroing a Dahulan he couldnt see. Demon wall died at first set of adds, last boss died before second add died. Nothing terrible happened, but i had no relic, just af gear + hq jewelry, and a lvl 50 gc weapon.


Are you healer? Healer's can get away with running it in the gear you mentioned, but there is a dd check in AK that really makes it difficult if not met. The DD you had must have been incredible to kill the last boss before that second add died. I was forced to do cm and prae speedruns to get some better gear, and get ifrit cudgel to drop before I felt like I could reliably compete in AK (this was a month ago). I've ran that dungeon at least 25 times since and now have relic +1 and the fastest I've beat that final boss is about 10 seconds after that second add died. And this is with a group that beat the demon wall just as the bees spawned. If you were dd in that battle with a lvl 50 gc weapon those times could simply not be achieved, even if the other dd was relic +1 and really on his game.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 9:46am by Valkayree
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#36 Oct 22 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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I've been searching for a term for this type of arguing lately that generally ends in pulling out the angry signs and pitch forks decrying everything as elitist... hmm

Reverse elitism? Casualism? idk... needs some pondering.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 11:31am by Furiousnixon
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#37 Oct 22 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
****, nowadays when I run with my FC, we go WHM, PLD, Relic BRD and me (Relic +1 DRG) and we don't even touch the bees. PLD vokes them, we LB the boss and it dies a couple seconds later.

On the topic of Catch 22, it's not so unless those requirements are expected for simple completion. If people were consistently trolling the DF looking for relic groups to simply get the clear, that would be unacceptable. But if someone is shouting to form a group for the speedruns, that is perfectly fine. If the demands are too ridiculous, people simply won't join.

It's similar to (incoming FFXI comparison, go-go-gadget-flameshield) some of the Delve shouts after XI's last expansion. The moment Tojil was killed, every shout group instantly started requiring Oatixur MNK's. This was obviously unrealistic, as only 1 or 2 people had them, so they ended up shouting for hours and finally settling on a measly Delve h2h MNK. It's the pt leader's perogative.
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#38ShadowedgeFFXI, Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 9:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you're planning to watch all the CS's, prepare yourself for the most vile comments imaginable, threats, insults, and worse. Plus you'd probably lose half the party if you were serious about it. You have my support, ***** your party so those people who have done CM and PR runs 1,000 times have to wait though 30min of CS's.
#39 Oct 22 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
A it really 30 mins of cutscenes?

I can't think of any other part of the game with that many cutscenes.
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#40 Oct 22 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
A it really 30 mins of cutscenes?

I can't think of any other part of the game with that many cutscenes.


I haven't brought out the clock, but between CM and PR...there are a ton of CS. The ending is long as **** too, but luckily by that time, everyone has left. If you want to **** people off, go ahead and watch them. You should see the comments I do for people that watch one short CS. "Hey noob, you can watch them in the inn, stop f*cking wasting our time". I personally wanted to quit the day I "beat the game" because of this and that was like 1 month ago. The elitism in FFXIV is terrible. It's far worse than FFXI.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 11:10am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#41 Oct 22 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Thayos wrote:


Woohooo, I am getting close to that point in the story! Can't wait until the fireworks when I watch my cutscenes, ha.


If you're planning to watch all the CS's, prepare yourself for the most vile comments imaginable, threats, insults, and worse. Plus you'd probably lose half the party if you were serious about it. You have my support, ***** your party so those people who have done CM and PR runs 1,000 times have to wait though 30min of CS's.


Considering how pointless it is to speed run CM/Prae now when Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep require less people, less time, and produce just as many philo tokens while also rewarding myth tokens, I don't think he will run into that problem.
#42 Oct 22 2013 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Arcari wrote:


Considering how pointless it is to speed run CM/Prae now when Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep require less people, less time, and produce just as many philo tokens while also rewarding myth tokens, I don't think he will run into that problem.


That's true, maybe he'll get lucky. It was really stupid of SE to align story dungeons with farming ones though. Because of the recent changes, you're probably right. For his sake, I hope you're right.
#43 Oct 22 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Ya CM is useless now that WP awards tokens. You can bulldoze (as in not skip anything) WP in about... 5-6 pulls plus bosses in 15-20 min and it awards a pittance of gil (which will cover your repairs, always nice), 100 phil and 30 myth, plus some junk gear you can dump on your GC vendor for 150~ GC tokens here and there, which is also nice.

AK can be run with sac pulls in ahh... 25 min (I could be mis-remembering that timing) I guess for the same general outcome with less gil because you're skipping some things and 10 more myth.

If we're talking about AK v. WP I'd argue that because of the small stream of incoming gil and the speed at which you complete the run that a few WPs are better than a few AKs, and don't require clever sac pulling. This assumes you don't care about any gear from AK of course and that a few more or less GC seals from selling that gear don't matter to you.
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#44 Oct 22 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
A lot of this seems to be confusing elitism with impatience and douche-baggery. Requiring a Relic is elitism. Requiring full knowledge of the fight is elitism. Getting mad because people watch CS's is not elitism. Dropping a pt at the first sign of trouble is not elitism (since it may not actually end bad anyway).

FFXIV does have its share of elitism, but I've seen worse. The level of impatience from people is fairly staggering though.
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#45 Oct 22 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

That's true, maybe he'll get lucky. It was really stupid of SE to align story dungeons with farming ones though. Because of the recent changes, you're probably right. For his sake, I hope you're right.


It seems to me that they wanted to make sure that there would always be people in the duty finder for these story dungeons, but failed to take in to account that people grinding these runs will be trying to maximize their time.

That and how nasty people can be to their fellow players.
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#46 Oct 22 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see too much of this "catch 22" stuff in Famfrit. There are certainly people putting together "geared only" runs. But seriously, after doing AK 50+ times to get geared; why in the world would you want to carry someone in full AF through it? Undergeared folk can run it slowly with other undergeared folk. Start your own party. Also; nobody farms CM anymore except those who failed to notice the most recent update.

Considering Duty Finder exists.... I really don't understand the OP's complaint. Believe it or not you -can- beat titan with duty finder parties =P

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 12:51pm by HatPower
#47 Oct 22 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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For his sake, I hope you're right.


Unless my boss is a secret FFXIV D-bag gamer who happens to get matched up with me, then I absolutely do not care what anyone says.

As far as I'm concerned, people who want to speed run can set up their own parties without leaning on the DF.
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#48 Oct 22 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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So when I did CM and Prae, I watched all the cutscenes. I got one comment towards the end of CM, but it wasn't anything vile or hateful... more bemused.

Prae was kind of a roller coaster of cutscene collision though as the walking distance between cutscenes can be very short in some places...

As for "30 minutes of cutscenes" ... no. Just.. just no. Not even close. Each cutscene lasts for, maybe, 30 seconds to 2 minutes. Unless you're pulling out the dictionary and looking up all the words they're saying, it isn't taking anyone 30 minutes to get through cutscenes.
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#49 Oct 22 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
IKickYoDog wrote:
Llester wrote:
what happened, zam? what happened?


Generation Me.


We just think it's a new generation, when honestly, our parents thought the same of us...and their parents thought the same of them, etc. It'll just keep going, and going. New problem? Has to be the way these kids were raised!
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#50 Oct 22 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
I am part of the new "GenMe" and even I get fed up with it sometimes.
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#51 Oct 22 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Llester wrote:
what happened, zam? what happened?

Generation Me.

We just think it's a new generation, when honestly, our parents thought the same of us...and their parents thought the same of them, etc. It'll just keep going, and going. New problem? Has to be the way these kids were raised!

Yes every generation thinks the generations following them are worse than when they were growing up, but until the last 20-30 years parents weren't handing out participation trophies & hammering the idea that "it's your world & everyone else is just living in it" into their kid's heads, turning them into lifelong narcissistic monsters.
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