Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Catch 22 GamingFollow

#52 Oct 22 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Nainz wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Llester wrote:
what happened, zam? what happened?

Generation Me.

We just think it's a new generation, when honestly, our parents thought the same of us...and their parents thought the same of them, etc. It'll just keep going, and going. New problem? Has to be the way these kids were raised!

Yes every generation thinks the generations following them are worse than when they were growing up, but until the last 20-30 years parents weren't handing out participation trophies & hammering the idea that "it's your world & everyone else is just living in it" into their kid's heads, turning them into lifelong narcissistic monsters.


Do you know how much participation crap I have from the early 80's for hockey and school? ****, even my parents have stuff from the 50s, 60s and 70s. It's been going on forever. Every generation has spoiled brats, honest folk, generous people. As you get older you mature and your perception changes and you fail to realize you were a giant douche bag from the ages of 12-25 (mileage may vary.)
____________________________

#53 Oct 22 2013 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,232 posts
Pretty sure I've been awesome the whole time :P
____________________________
Character: Urzol Thrush
Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#54 Oct 22 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
**
325 posts
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”


― Socrates
#55 Oct 22 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
The big change isn't this being "Generation Me."

The big change is this being "Generation Now."

It's not just young people who are guilty of this, though. In fact, it's the fault of us older folks who should be setting the example. Adult consumers are empowering the cell phone companies, tablet producers, etc., to convince us that we're really SO IMPORTANT that we need to be wired to the Internet at all times. With call waiting. And instant messaging. And Skype. And Twitter...

Because, heaven forbid, you have to wait until you're home before you can call someone back.

This "now, now, now" mentality is bleeding into so many aspects of our lives. Selfishness has always been a problem, but the "now, now, now" problem -- and the fact that we're all joined by the Internet -- just makes it way worse.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#56 Oct 22 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
*
197 posts
When I ran CM and Praetorium I just skipped all the cut scenes, mainly because I just wanted to get through it and I can watch them later. Even the ending I just skipped though. I do think it was pretty poor design on their part to have all of those cut scenes in end game dungeons like that.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#57 Oct 22 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
**
325 posts
Jeskradha wrote:
When I ran CM and Praetorium I just skipped all the cut scenes, mainly because I just wanted to get through it and I can watch them later. Even the ending I just skipped though. I do think it was pretty poor design on their part to have all of those cut scenes in end game dungeons like that.

Its a FF game and I expect the CS. I think the mistake was to hand out considerable farmable rewards in storyline dungeons.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 2:24pm by Yelta
#58 Oct 22 2013 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
*
197 posts
Yelta wrote:
Jeskradha wrote:
When I ran CM and Praetorium I just skipped all the cut scenes, mainly because I just wanted to get through it and I can watch them later. Even the ending I just skipped though. I do think it was pretty poor design on their part to have all of those cut scenes in end game dungeons like that.

Its a FF game and I expect the CS. I think the mistake was to hand out considerable farmable rewards in storyline dungeons.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2013 2:24pm by Yelta


While I expect the cut scenes, and I do like them. I agree with you that putting them in farmable dungeons was a mistake.
____________________________
Character Name: Jeskradha Duskmantle
Free Company - The Kraken Club <ZAM>
Server: Ultros
#59 Oct 22 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,556 posts
Now it seems a little more efficient to do WP than CM or Praetorium so that should alleviate some of the asshattery we've been seeing in those two DFs.

Of course, now if you want to run WP...well, at least there are only two short cutscenes.
#60 Oct 22 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
4,775 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Now it seems a little more efficient to do WP than CM or Praetorium so that should alleviate some of the asshattery we've been seeing in those two DFs.

Of course, now if you want to run WP...well, at least there are only two short cutscenes.


I have to agree that the changes made as well as the new dungeon coming out next month(Pharos or something like it) should help with this problem. It's very ironic how the very first people to lv50 didn't CM spam, but the people a few weeks behind did. Now CM is going back to the players on the mission which is a good thing. The only reason I preferred CM's was because no matter how terrible the group, we always won. Compared to my groups in WP and AK where people would see someone with less than stellar gear and leave or even wipe once and leave, that was a blessing. Now I'm having better luck doing AK and WP so it's a no brainier for me.

To anyone reading this...
Oh, and my statement about the 30min CS's in CM and PR was a sarcastic response. It's probably like 30sec-2min as someone else pointed out per CS. The sheer number of them are just annoying.
#61 Oct 22 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,447 posts
Quote:
It's very ironic how the very first people to lv50 didn't CM spam, but the people a few weeks behind did.


SE nerfed the ability to speed run AK. It's really not ironic at all that this happened. It was 100% predictable.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#62 Oct 23 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
Thayos wrote:
A it really 30 mins of cutscenes?

I can't think of any other part of the game with that many cutscenes.


Nainz wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
IKickYoDog wrote:
Llester wrote:
what happened, zam? what happened?

Generation Me.

We just think it's a new generation, when honestly, our parents thought the same of us...and their parents thought the same of them, etc. It'll just keep going, and going. New problem? Has to be the way these kids were raised!

Yes every generation thinks the generations following them are worse than when they were growing up, but until the last 20-30 years parents weren't handing out participation trophies & hammering the idea that "it's your world & everyone else is just living in it" into their kid's heads, turning them into lifelong narcissistic monsters.


It was a self entitlement movement started in the 90s by soccer moms.
____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#63 Oct 23 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
**
598 posts
Wait until the kids of helicopter moms grow up a little bit more.

"Give me that controller, sweetie. We're going to get you that achievement!"
____________________________
Sour Cherry
#64 Oct 23 2013 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
**
325 posts
ShindaUsagi wrote:
Wait until the kids of helicopter moms grow up a little bit more.

"Give me that controller, sweetie. We're going to get you that achievement!"


I'm getting old, I have handed the controller to my kid "Help me jump up there". Smiley: tongue
#65 Oct 23 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,330 posts
Technically, Praetorium is > 30 minutes of cutscenes.

But that's when you include the ending credits, which are at least 45 minutes long...
#66 Oct 23 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
**
829 posts
I thought everyone was tired of grinding after FFXI and that XIV was supposed to be a more casual and relaxing MMO. I guess that idea went out the window.
____________________________
Tauu Aori
Lalafell
WHM
Sargatanas
#67 Oct 23 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
Guru
***
1,310 posts
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I thought everyone was tired of grinding after FFXI and that XIV was supposed to be a more casual and relaxing MMO. I guess that idea went out the window.


Whatever do you mean? Grinding is strictly optional. Even if you want to level multiple classes, and you want the benefit of the story XP, it's nothing to create a new character if you want to do it that way. The game has many ways to progress and you're not really bound to any of them save for a few main story quests to unlock certain functions and areas.

And if you're like me, you'll just wait till 2.1 to get in a week all the endgame gear people are taking months to get now, like a shamelessly casual player should. Smiley: cool

There's nothing that requires grinding that a little patience won't net in the long run as far as I can tell, unless you want to participate in the moneyed economy, and even that is purely optional if you want nothing to do with it. The lack of pressure is quite enjoyable. I can play whenever I feel like and not feel as though I'm missing out. But at the same time, the grind is there if you want it. So everyone wins.
#68 Oct 23 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
**
829 posts
Xoie wrote:
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I thought everyone was tired of grinding after FFXI and that XIV was supposed to be a more casual and relaxing MMO. I guess that idea went out the window.


Whatever do you mean? Grinding is strictly optional. Even if you want to level multiple classes, and you want the benefit of the story XP, it's nothing to create a new character if you want to do it that way. The game has many ways to progress and you're not really bound to any of them save for a few main story quests to unlock certain functions and areas.

And if you're like me, you'll just wait till 2.1 to get in a week all the endgame gear people are taking months to get now, like a shamelessly casual player should. Smiley: cool

There's nothing that requires grinding that a little patience won't net in the long run as far as I can tell, unless you want to participate in the moneyed economy, and even that is purely optional if you want nothing to do with it. The lack of pressure is quite enjoyable. I can play whenever I feel like and not feel as though I'm missing out. But at the same time, the grind is there if you want it. So everyone wins.

As a casual player I find myself being left in the dust and unable to do anything with LS/FC mates. I hope you're right about 2.1 offering an opportunity to catch up.
____________________________
Tauu Aori
Lalafell
WHM
Sargatanas
#69 Oct 23 2013 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
**
829 posts
Xoie wrote:
TauuOfSiren wrote:
I thought everyone was tired of grinding after FFXI and that XIV was supposed to be a more casual and relaxing MMO. I guess that idea went out the window.


Whatever do you mean? Grinding is strictly optional. Even if you want to level multiple classes, and you want the benefit of the story XP, it's nothing to create a new character if you want to do it that way. The game has many ways to progress and you're not really bound to any of them save for a few main story quests to unlock certain functions and areas.

And if you're like me, you'll just wait till 2.1 to get in a week all the endgame gear people are taking months to get now, like a shamelessly casual player should. Smiley: cool

There's nothing that requires grinding that a little patience won't net in the long run as far as I can tell, unless you want to participate in the moneyed economy, and even that is purely optional if you want nothing to do with it. The lack of pressure is quite enjoyable. I can play whenever I feel like and not feel as though I'm missing out. But at the same time, the grind is there if you want it. So everyone wins.

As a casual player I find myself being left in the dust and unable to do anything with LS/FC mates. I hope you're right about 2.1 offering an opportunity to catch up.
____________________________
Tauu Aori
Lalafell
WHM
Sargatanas
#70 Oct 23 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
Don't think you'll ever catch up, really. Get closer, maybe, but never catch up. Restrictions like weekly tome limits or BC access basically see to imposing artificial limits on progress. And sure, SE could tweak item costs or dole out more tomes, but by the time that happens, I'd expect newer gear for the hardcores to be chasing, too.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#71 Oct 23 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
**
336 posts
I can't even get non-DF parties on Ultros anymore. Everyone shouting is only for full DL/Relic.
Just a week or so before there was all kinds of activity, now it's only the elite that can play. What happened to all the people still building gear? I don't even get a chance to cap my Tomes unless I devote hours (that I don't have) to waiting for DF, during which you can't party, have chocobo, or do Leves.
#72 Oct 24 2013 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
Westyle wrote:
I can't even get non-DF parties on Ultros anymore. Everyone shouting is only for full DL/Relic.
Just a week or so before there was all kinds of activity, now it's only the elite that can play. What happened to all the people still building gear? I don't even get a chance to cap my Tomes unless I devote hours (that I don't have) to waiting for DF, during which you can't party, have chocobo, or do Leves.


SE put out a graphic just about a week ago that showed level 45-49 to technically be the lowest population of individuals on each collective server. Even still I hardly see people in AF gear anymore. A majority of those who have bought the game in the first month are now at some form of endgame. Id say at this point it is moving in a bell curve progression, where about 10% of players have 2 or 3 allagan pieces, AF2 armor, and relic +1, and 10% of the players are just starting out, just receiving the chocobo. The remainder of the 80% are somewhere in between, but the midpoint now appears to be people in mor dhona shouting for chimera and hydra.

____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#73 Oct 24 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
36 posts
Yup, I am part of the new crowd. My Conj is 30 and did the white mage quest, Got my chocobo for battle and I am working on my tank now and gathering. I only play about 2.5 hours a day and I am in no hurry to get to the end game.
#74 Oct 24 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,149 posts
Westyle wrote:
I can't even get non-DF parties on Ultros anymore. Everyone shouting is only for full DL/Relic.
Just a week or so before there was all kinds of activity, now it's only the elite that can play. What happened to all the people still building gear? I don't even get a chance to cap my Tomes unless I devote hours (that I don't have) to waiting for DF, during which you can't party, have chocobo, or do Leves.


This sort of trend is present in almost any game. It's only slightly different than people requiring you to have a delve weapon to farm for, you guessed it... a delve weapon in FFXI. It's no different than players in WoW requiring you to have a certain ilvl to participate in PUGs. It's also the reason that DF content will require you to have a certain ilvl to participate in the future.

I enjoyed FFXI, but was a little disappointed that there was no progression element. There was almost never any time in my decade long span of playing that game where I felt like I had reached a milestone that allowed me to participate in content that I couldn't prior. Don't get me wrong, I worked hard to get my relics and felt like they were an achievement, but I never thought to myself "I couldn't be doing this event if I didn't have my Spharai". RMT were clearing almost everything I was in garbage gear.


There's a thin line here. I don't think it's fair to call people elitist because they have standards for groups they form. If I am taking my time to assemble a group then I think it's fair that group be up to my standard.

DF is completely different. By signing up for a random group you're pretty much submitting yourself to a higher risk. The trade off is that it takes no organization on the part of any of the members to get started. If SE implements a 'vote to kick' feature and it is being abused to kick people from DF groups where their gear is already accounted for; then we have a problem.

Edited, Oct 24th 2013 6:40pm by FilthMcNasty
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#75 Oct 24 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
Ya, you essentially need to gear one job, and use that job to gear your others until they're fully geared. I hate the whole gear requirement shouts, but for some, shaving off 10-15 mins off each run is well worth it. That being said I've seen fully geared morons who slow you down more than AF people.

Just stick to the DF, deck out that one job then join shouts or a good FC. Actual good players, fully geared take things down like Demon Wall before the bees even spawn, so factor in how quick lesser mobs go down, it's a huge time saver. Other option is to find a like minded FC.
____________________________

#76 Oct 24 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
**
325 posts
Part of me wants to start a LS just for slower more laidback runs. Where we can pop the chests for people who need the items and kill all the mobs for spiritbinding.
#77 Oct 24 2013 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
17 posts
Healer privilege too stronk.
Starting on Ultros, then moving to Sargatanus, I've had no problems finding parties in pretty entry-level gear. I did Titan in full AK (chomping toast) without issue.
After hitting 50 near the end of Sept, that is, well behind everyone else, I ran AK once in AF gear, unlocked my GC weapon, used that to farm a set of AK, and I've been using that since. With all my accessories on, I've ~4k hp, >400 MND. Totally skipped DL. Not sure if I want to pad out some parts with Vanya or not at this point. Myth Chest+Pants are BiS, so that leaves belt, boots, hat, gloves to grab.. hum.

I could see grabbing DL if you wanted to hit up Coil immediately, or are a tank class, but for healers + arguably some dps (depending on accuracy requirements) the 2star crafted accessories are a more worthwhile use of Philo tomes. At the very least, you can resell them if you decide to upgrade to Allagan accs.

Parties shouting for gear requirements are fine - it's their right to want a faster run, and you can always queue via DF, or run with friends. The only time it really didn't make sense to me, was people shouting for Relic requirements on Chimaera / Hydra. Yeah, about that...
#78 Oct 25 2013 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,178 posts
I get it. I totally get it, and I am no longer upset at all by people asking for Relic or DL or whatever for runs. They can ask for whatever, and they will get it or not.

When you get your gear, especially weapon, from item level 50 to item level 70, suddenly your are doing around 150% of your previous damage. I expect this goes for healing and tanking as well. That is a huge increase. By now most people have done runs where everyone is low gear, and runs where everyone is high gear, and all the variations in between.

When you are trying to help your LS friend at Chimera, you have maybe 4/8 LS mates available, 2 of which just hit 50 and don't have much gear. You start shouting, you get 7/8 but now 4~5 of your members are freshly minted level 50's with low gear. At this point, you shout for someone with Relic. Why not? Someone will help just to help. You just need to add a bit of firepower to your party to get over the difficulty hump. This goes for nearly all of the endgame content to some degree.

If people want to blow through speed runs, so? Feeling left out because you need to keep using DF to run CM? So? That party shouting for "Relic onry" represents 5% or the server population. The vast majority of players are in the same boat as you, working on gearing up.

I guess everyone realizes this eventually. There is a progression:

> hit Lvl 50, need gear
> See shouts for runs you need with crazy requirements, feel sad/mad
> find ways to get gear, in DF or with LS
> realize the gear really matters
> have the gear, now you want runs to go faster/need the gear to help lower level friends succeed
> realize there's nothing to be mad about when people ask for high level gear

Not so catch 22 after all.
#79 Oct 28 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,550 posts
Gnu wrote:

I guess everyone realizes this eventually. There is a progression:

> hit Lvl 50, need gear
> See shouts for runs you need with crazy requirements, feel sad/mad
> find ways to get gear, in DF or with LS
> realize the gear really matters
> have the gear, now you want runs to go faster/need the gear to help lower level friends succeed
> realize there's nothing to be mad about when people ask for high level gear

Not so catch 22 after all.


So true. That happened to me almost exactly the same way.
____________________________
Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#80 Oct 29 2013 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,145 posts
I'm pretty sure this business here is former FFXI players dragging their Delve mentality into FFXIV, where they would often shout for Delve weapon only melee for the very NMs you get the delve weapons from. Maybe they got it from someone else in another game but as far as I am aware it's coming from FFXI, and it's just going to spread like wildfire here with so many playing. So you have either those FFXI players to thank or another game that made this popular.

And yes any job could merit but let's face it, FFXI was so bad that the difference between all welcome and the very best choices was like 8k vs 30k a hour. This isn't quite the same as people demanding grade A weapons for content where said grade A weapons come from. One is saving countless hours of extra meriting. The other is mere minutes saved because someone is in a hurry to stand around in game doing nothing or to log off until the next content patch. How endearing. I'm totally in with not joining any relic groups until I get my relic. oh wait-
#81 Oct 29 2013 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
Any job when properly geared could blow merits out of the water. You ever see the numbers a competent PUP could put out, even at 75? At 99 a well geared PUP is friggin broken. And yet, they were laughed at and shunned because playing at that level took a time, money, and skill investment that few people had the patience to pull off. And 90% of PUPs were terrible as a result.

Back in HNM days we had one PUP who would go to Jailer of Love, and then basically sit back and afk while his puppet tossed hate free 1K nukes every twenty seconds or so, while he stayed out of danger range.

I like the fact that no one job in XIV has been designated as undesirable yet (closest is Marauder and they still get a pass because there are too few tanks in the game.)
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#82 Oct 29 2013 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
12,824 posts
So let me tell you why people fear the Catch 22.

I stopped playing FFXI for about a year. During that year, Meebles, Voidwatch, and a few other items rolled out. When I returned for SoA, the first block came from not having those items, and the second came from missing the window of when players had infinite time to defeat a Delve NM. The problem became being locked out of content because either I was expected to have said content already, or expected to somehow magically catch up to said content without help.

That is why people are saying that the mentality needs to stop. It isn't for today, it's for a year from now. I sincerely hope SE does somehow hear my fervent prayer and make crafted gear that stays a step below endgame at all times. That way, you at least have the option of crafting your re-entry into endgame if nothing else.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#83 Oct 29 2013 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
**
448 posts
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
So let me tell you why people fear the Catch 22.

I stopped playing FFXI for about a year. During that year, Meebles, Voidwatch, and a few other items rolled out. When I returned for SoA, the first block came from not having those items, and the second came from missing the window of when players had infinite time to defeat a Delve NM. The problem became being locked out of content because either I was expected to have said content already, or expected to somehow magically catch up to said content without help.

That is why people are saying that the mentality needs to stop. It isn't for today, it's for a year from now. I sincerely hope SE does somehow hear my fervent prayer and make crafted gear that stays a step below endgame at all times. That way, you at least have the option of crafting your re-entry into endgame if nothing else.


I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.
____________________________
"We're getting close, real close. And now for some more bad news... Ready?"
-- Egg Shen
#84 Oct 29 2013 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
*****
12,824 posts
Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#85 Oct 29 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
265 posts
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.


There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here
____________________________
Crasy of Alexander, Member of SplatRangers

Monk. Need I say more?

#86 Oct 29 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
*****
12,824 posts
crasyk wrote:
There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here


I'm well aware of that being the current state of affairs, what I am saying is that I hope that remains the norm, rather than being a "just for now" thing. Remember, there was a time in FFXI where you mixed in crafted +1 items into your dropped gear as well to make better sets of things. My worry is that crafting will either start requiring dungeons that you need better than current gear (IE requiring dungeon drops of today) to run, or that crafted gear will simply be left totally in the dust.

I know there are people on both sides pushing for what they want (for dungeon grinding/endgame gear drops to be above all, and for crafted gear to be kept up to snuff), and I really hope the balance remains like it is. I hope that this time next year (or the year after), we will have crafted gear better than Coil gear, and endgamers hunting for gear above even that. It would help with the gap that will happen eventually between newcomers to the game and the top-heavy community of tomorrow.
____________________________
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/pawkeshup
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/pawkeshup
Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/pawkeshup
Blog: http://pawkeshup.blogspot.com
Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#87 Oct 29 2013 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
crasyk wrote:
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Refews wrote:
I can't see why this would NOT be the case. The problem stems from the playerbase not seeing the value in it, even if the lvl of the item is comparable. If you didn't run endgame dungeons to farm tomes/get chest drops, then it probably will not be deemed worthy...which I completely agree is sad and BS. It always comes down to the players canonizing certain things and dismissing other things - even if those things they originally had were less than what they require now.


The problem is that history doesn't bear it out that crafted items can equal dropped. Right now, Delve gear is leaps and bounds above anything that is crafted, unless some major patch has changed it, and either you have to grind older content to get "acceptable" gear to be allowed entry into the velvet-roped "elite" raids, or you have to hope to find others screwed like yourself, and struggle forward. Honestly, I know that it is quite possible to do. They have already talked of lowering requirements for current raided gear, but I'd love to see a way to simply make ilvl-equal gear that you can prove works. Then at least if the elitist block you off, you have some option to find more reasonable minds to band together in your rag-tag crafted stuff and be able to run the dungeons yourselves.


There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here

Problem with this stuff is it is prohibitively expensive. Farm it yourself and you can just buy DL gear anyway. Adding good materia on top just makes it worse.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#88 Oct 29 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
*
181 posts
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
crasyk wrote:
There is in fact crafted gear that is at least on scale with darklight gear (better with materia), and no one as of yet will require you to have anything more than that unless you're going for turn 5 which is the hardest content in game...

And if you have that gear, farming WP or AK with your so-called "rag-tag" team will be a breeze, I really don't see the problem here


I'm well aware of that being the current state of affairs, what I am saying is that I hope that remains the norm, rather than being a "just for now" thing. Remember, there was a time in FFXI where you mixed in crafted +1 items into your dropped gear as well to make better sets of things. My worry is that crafting will either start requiring dungeons that you need better than current gear (IE requiring dungeon drops of today) to run, or that crafted gear will simply be left totally in the dust.

I know there are people on both sides pushing for what they want (for dungeon grinding/endgame gear drops to be above all, and for crafted gear to be kept up to snuff), and I really hope the balance remains like it is. I hope that this time next year (or the year after), we will have crafted gear better than Coil gear, and endgamers hunting for gear above even that. It would help with the gap that will happen eventually between newcomers to the game and the top-heavy community of tomorrow.


Only problem I have with this is that any crafted gear that is close to endgame gear or raid gear is vary expensive and I don't see how some newcomer to the game is going to be able to drop a few 100k on one piece of gear to catch up, let alone a whole set. I remember when I played xi (stopped around wotg) crafted gear was just as hard to come by as the endgame gear and+1 gear was even harder then endgame gear to get cuz the cost ends up being so high.
#89 Oct 29 2013 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
Sage
Avatar
**
448 posts
Not to mention that it is fairly rare in comparison to tome DL gear. Given that, gold sellers will target that. If a crafted whips up an HQ Vanya Robe of Healing and puts it up for say 125k, a gold seller will just buy that and relist it to something that only gil buyers can purchase. Already happening on Mateus.
____________________________
"We're getting close, real close. And now for some more bad news... Ready?"
-- Egg Shen
#90 Oct 29 2013 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*
53 posts
Yeah endgame crafting gear is just way too expensive, on Tonberry 1 piece of gear cost about 500k-900k.......
#91 Oct 29 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
******
21,262 posts
I expect that prices will go down as more crafters - and more suppliers of raw materials - reach fifty.

I agree, though, that endgame crafted gear needs to be made from easily obtained or readily had materials to keep the cost down, but not materials so common that it doesn't require some effort to get them. Have the crafting materials be potential treasure chest drops in the high end dungeons, so that the people obtaining them can either make them into the stuff they need, or sell it for money.

Not to beat the XI dead horse, but the Shining Cloth used to make a Noble's Tunic for a WHM could come from one of two places: Direct Kirin drop, or accidental by-product of trying to obtain a much rarer and much more expensive material, the cashmere cloth used in the Sha'ir Manteel for bard. The rarity of the cashmere cloth for so long meant that people would "de-synth" Vir Subligar in the hopes of getting it. A HQ desynth got a shining cloth. Upside: Price of noble's tunic became reasonable. Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck: Retired December 2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest and Taprara Rara on Lamia Server - Member of The Swarm
Curator of the XIV Wallpapers Tumblr and the XIV Fashion Tumblr
#92 Oct 29 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
*
181 posts
I was thinking of getting a dark steel huby for my drg and it's 500k and then the materia it's around 40k a pop, very unfriendly to new incoming players
#93 Oct 29 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
Catwho wrote:
I expect that prices will go down as more crafters - and more suppliers of raw materials - reach fifty.

I agree, though, that endgame crafted gear needs to be made from easily obtained or readily had materials to keep the cost down, but not materials so common that it doesn't require some effort to get them. Have the crafting materials be potential treasure chest drops in the high end dungeons, so that the people obtaining them can either make them into the stuff they need, or sell it for money.

Not to beat the XI dead horse, but the Shining Cloth used to make a Noble's Tunic for a WHM could come from one of two places: Direct Kirin drop, or accidental by-product of trying to obtain a much rarer and much more expensive material, the cashmere cloth used in the Sha'ir Manteel for bard. The rarity of the cashmere cloth for so long meant that people would "de-synth" Vir Subligar in the hopes of getting it. A HQ desynth got a shining cloth. Upside: Price of noble's tunic became reasonable. Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!

The dungeon mats have felt fairly steady on Diabolos, maybe even climbing slowly in price. More people leveling up will just mean more demand on the whole, so you're only likely to see cost reductions in (brief) undercutting wars. If you catch one of those, great, but the only way I see stuff like the Vanya set lowering in price is if the number of tomes needed to craft a particular component is reduced significantly or the number of these things is cut... like not needing 9 peacock ore for an ingot.

Otherwise, the RMT end can be circumvented as long as fair access is maintained. This is achieved by individual self-instanced nodes on the gathering end, but can be expanded in other ways. Though now that I think about it, in time SE could also chop off the star/control requirements for these things, too. But the base ingredients are still a pretty big bottleneck since they're reliant on people who don't actually need DL gear to produce.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#94 Oct 30 2013 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
****
4,149 posts
Catwho wrote:
Downside: People had to blow up 8 million gil underwear trying desperately to get cashmere cloth, which only dropped from Vrtra and later on Bahamut. Oy vey!


People used to desynth those? I just wore them around town. Smiley: sly
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#95 Oct 30 2013 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
11,079 posts
Think that was more a thing during inflation when the cloth would've sold for at least 2x the undies' value. But a mix of additional sources, people getting banned/quitting, and new gear deflated the temptation/risk for this particular option. Suppose the general permanency of gear in XI's economy didn't hurt, either. Stupidly overpriced either way in its prime, I think.
____________________________
Violence good. **** bad. Yay America.
#96 Oct 30 2013 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
36 posts
Wouldn't being a tank or healer make getting your toms faster? Just wondering if the minority can farm for their gear faster?
#97 Oct 30 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
265 posts
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.
____________________________
Crasy of Alexander, Member of SplatRangers

Monk. Need I say more?

#98 Oct 30 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
**
576 posts
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.


How about some crafted gear that isn't quite so strong and also isn't so **** expensive?

Crafters need to be able to make more high(ish) level gear if we're to remain relevant.
____________________________
FFXI, Siren: Pickins BST99.:~:.BLM75.:~:.RDM56
FFXIV, Siren: Miss Pickins - Builder of the Realm
#99 Oct 30 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
Avatar
**
448 posts
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.



That is not the point. The point is that upper tier crafted stuff gets put on the market by legit crafters for a price, then RMT comes along and easily forks over that gil in order to relist it x3-x5 of what it was - putting it well outta range of any reasonable expectations and makes grinding for AF+1 gear much less time consuming than farming stuff for gil to buy it. I have no issues with a Vanya Robe of whatever being 200-300k from a real person, but on my server, Mateus - a new server - those are going for 750-900k. Anyone on that server from the get-go will maybe have that if they played a crap ton since the server opened. For ONE single chest piece.

Crafters gets paid sure, but their wares never see the light of day because they most likely will be behind the RMT wall (read: you need to pay real money for your virtual goods). So you are thrown back into the fray of having to do dungeons to get gear that require said gear to run...

But this is more a gripe about RMT rather than the community consuming itself so carry on with the show good people...
____________________________
"We're getting close, real close. And now for some more bad news... Ready?"
-- Egg Shen
#100 Oct 30 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
**
412 posts
Pickins wrote:
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.


How about some crafted gear that isn't quite so strong and also isn't so **** expensive?

Crafters need to be able to make more high(ish) level gear if we're to remain relevant.


It's called one star gear. The militia gear which is I lvl 55 can be melded with materia for very good results. I made the entire astral set for my blm and I now currently have 4800 HP. While my main stat isn't ilvl90, my remaining stats are. By putting 5 melds on the ilvl70 accessories, I gained a great boost in crit/det (320)/spell speed reaching 500+, while my main stat is stuck at 470.

Seeing as ilvl55 is a lower i lvl, you would probably want to put lower teir materia on it (III). You would still have stats comprable to ilvl 70, but your main stat would be lower (Depending on your weapon). There are options for everyone, however what you just asked for already exists in the game. Even though you say you want "not so strong" gear, I don't believe you because that "high-ish" gear already exists in the form of 1 star crafts. It's quit easy to get AK gear/WP gear/Darklight Gear. But the stats on those are a bit all over the place, and doesn't optimize our jobs for the best results. It simply gives you a bit of everything, not specializing in the stats that really make you shine.

I hope people realize how much the "I want it now" mindset is driving these comments. Since the game started I had my eye on those crafted pieces, because I knew how much potential they had with materia, it wasn't only recently I was able to craft them (2 weeks ago). The Philosophy items are now running for 35k each, and seeing as having all crafts 50 makes HQ guaranteed, you're looking at spending 315k-945k for items that cost 1-3 of the phil items respectively.

I know the concept of "work with what you've got" is lost on many people. If you have a gear set goal in mind, then you should work towards it, and not wait on the developers to make it easy for you to do so. I don't understand these craft-centric posts. You want things to be cheaper, but you want to make ALL the big gilz while crafting. Which is it? Set a singular goal and aim for it.
#101 Oct 30 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
265 posts
Refews wrote:
crasyk wrote:
To everyone who said "the crafted gear is too expensive", do you want it to be cheap? Do you want the second best gear in the game (only second to ilvl 90 gear) to be easily accessible to newcommers? It's like you expect to buy the game, lvl to 50 and be top geared without effort at all. I'm not trying to say "you're noobs go lrn2play", I'm just saying if EVERYTHING was easy and took no time at all, we would all quit the game in a month out of boredom.



That is not the point. The point is that upper tier crafted stuff gets put on the market by legit crafters for a price, then RMT comes along and easily forks over that gil in order to relist it x3-x5 of what it was - putting it well outta range of any reasonable expectations and makes grinding for AF+1 gear much less time consuming than farming stuff for gil to buy it. I have no issues with a Vanya Robe of whatever being 200-300k from a real person, but on my server, Mateus - a new server - those are going for 750-900k. Anyone on that server from the get-go will maybe have that if they played a crap ton since the server opened. For ONE single chest piece.

Crafters gets paid sure, but their wares never see the light of day because they most likely will be behind the RMT wall (read: you need to pay real money for your virtual goods). So you are thrown back into the fray of having to do dungeons to get gear that require said gear to run...

But this is more a gripe about RMT rather than the community consuming itself so carry on with the show good people...


That's an entirely different discussion though. RMT is and will continue to be a problem as long as people buy from them. This however, has nothing at all to do with there not being craftable alternatives (which there is, for every level). Any legit player has both the resources and means to get these items by harvesting and crafting themselves (or make friends who have DoH and/or DoL leveled), but everyone seems to forget it's possible and creates this big illusion of RMT running the game.

Taking your example of the Vanya robe, how much does the mats sell for (here, any legit crafter who sell for 200k, gets the mats for cheaper than 200k, so can you) ? Is it possible to buy those instead and have someone craft for you? Is it possible to harvest the materials yourself? It's really not as hard as a lot of people make it out to be, it just takes time.

____________________________
Crasy of Alexander, Member of SplatRangers

Monk. Need I say more?

Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 63 All times are in CST
Callinon, Lyrailis, Anonymous Guests (61)