No, this doesnt have anything to do with the quest of the same name. This does however have to do with bards. More specifically, those bards who dont seem to understand their role.
Ill start off with the story that goes with this. Basically i was doing titan trying to help a friend get his relic. My friend is a WHM and i also went as WHM. Now, everyone who has done this fight knows that it is very taxing on our MP pools as healers because of the need to spam medica or quick heal people who got hit with things. So of course i ask our bard to give use mages ballad which i dont think is an unreasonable request given the situation. Shroud of saints is good, but has a recast timer so keeping my MP up alone isnt easy especially since the tank needs to be constantly topped off. The bard flat out refuses to give us ballad because it would lower his DPS.
On the heart sure, change to DPS mode so you can go all out and take it out before we get taken out. But to prioritize your DPS over the survival of the party? Its not a race before or after the heart, and 1 person loosing i think a 20% DPS buff isnt going to make or break the fight. If our MP is high i dont have a problem with bards going for DPS but when we need MP, we need MP.
This isnt the first time ive been refused a request like this (all of them for ballad) which is why im making this post. Maybe i just havent been lucky with the people ive played with but a lot of them arent very nice when i ask this. My FC bards dont have an issue with this. I think this might be attributed to the fact bards are labeled as DPS instead of support. They seem to think all thats important is how much damage you can put out and if anyone needs their songs they must be doing something wrong.
Of course this isnt everyone and i know some amazing bards. But a lot of people i encountered dont seem to know what job they are playing.
I would like to know what you guys think. Am i wrong in my opinion? Do you guys agree there is a problem? And what do you guys think could be done to improve the situation?
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Sadly everyone will play the game the way they want to, not necessarily the way they should in your mind. Yes it's a simple request for ballad and one I'm happy to give if it's not all ready up. Coming as a healer from FFxi, I'm accustomed to watching other members health/mp pools. If the tank falls to below 50% mp and/or the healer, I will toss up ballad.... if they are lower will add the bonus to it.
I'm entirely sure of what has been happening during your runs, but when a player is a detriment to the goals, the group will not get far. The next time you are in a group with any brd who would refuse to give ballad due to the - dmg we get from it, ask them if they have their cross class abilities that will help over come that reduction and turn it into a positive. They will probably say "Yes.... look at my leet DPS.... are you blind?".... leave it at that and pray the group goes for another round, just don't heal the brd until they die.... and then respond..... "Why yes, I am blind!".
I will add to your thoughts, as I've been in groups with a lot of different BRD and they will do the same thing, no songs... hell 75% of the ones I group with won't even use our DOT's on any fight.
I'm entirely sure of what has been happening during your runs, but when a player is a detriment to the goals, the group will not get far. The next time you are in a group with any brd who would refuse to give ballad due to the - dmg we get from it, ask them if they have their cross class abilities that will help over come that reduction and turn it into a positive. They will probably say "Yes.... look at my leet DPS.... are you blind?".... leave it at that and pray the group goes for another round, just don't heal the brd until they die.... and then respond..... "Why yes, I am blind!".
I will add to your thoughts, as I've been in groups with a lot of different BRD and they will do the same thing, no songs... hell 75% of the ones I group with won't even use our DOT's on any fight.
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nghthawk Evenfall
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nytehawk Evenfall
Time is but a window,
Death is but a doorway,
I'll Be Back
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nytehawk Evenfall
Time is but a window,
Death is but a doorway,
I'll Be Back
I get yelled at for singing songs all the time ^.^ I do forget to turn them off from time to time.
It's the difference between a synergy group and a OMGWTFDPSNOW!!!1! group. I prefer the former every time.
I played a ranger and a bard in XI, so I'm familiar with the roles of both. Was surprising they wrapped the two up into one class in XIV, but I'm not complaining.
Yes, ballad should always be used when:
1. The fight isn't a dps race
and
2. Healers are low on mp
It's pretty common sense. Refusing to do that is like a healer trying focus on dealing damage when keeping the party alive is a problem.
Yes, ballad should always be used when:
1. The fight isn't a dps race
and
2. Healers are low on mp
It's pretty common sense. Refusing to do that is like a healer trying focus on dealing damage when keeping the party alive is a problem.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
Its not a race before or after the heart, and 1 person loosing i think a 20% DPS buff isnt going to make or break the fight.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
Am i wrong in my opinion? Do you guys agree there is a problem?
Tumult, post-heart, is most certainly something to be concerned about and is definitely a DPS race. While I know healers who can sustain everyone after the 6th tumult cycle post-heart and paladins who need very little care because of their gigantic health pools, I know that if you are doing this in a PUG, that is most likely not the case.
Tumult, post heart, is an interesting mechanic and it most definitely is a race. I've seen parties wipe on Titan when he was at 0.1% and 0.01%. That 20% DPS could've saved us.
On SCH, if I'm healing Garuda or Titan and request a ballad, if it's not given and both of us are low on mana, we'll probably wipe. When the group does wipe, simply point to the fact that the bard was asked to use ballad and did not. The blame is now on the bard and not you. In fact, it might even be a good idea to make a macro with a <se.#> in it.
While I don't condone what the bard was doing for you because giving the healers ballad is common sense on Titan, I don't think you should be stating Titan, post-heart, isn't a race.
Edited, Oct 27th 2013 7:12am by HitomeOfBismarck
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Keysofgaruda wrote:
Its not a race before or after the heart, and 1 person loosing i think a 20% DPS buff isnt going to make or break the fight.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
Am i wrong in my opinion? Do you guys agree there is a problem?
Tumult, post-heart, is most certainly something to be concerned about and is definitely a DPS race. While I know healers who can sustain everyone after the 6th tumult cycle post-heart and paladins who need very little care because of their gigantic health pools, I know that if you are doing this in a PUG, that is most likely not the case.
Tumult, post heart, is an interesting mechanic and it most definitely is a race. I've seen parties wipe on Titan when he was at 0.1% and 0.01%. That 20% DPS could've saved us.
On SCH, if I'm healing Garuda or Titan and request a ballad, if it's not given and both of us are low on mana, we'll probably wipe. When the group does wipe, simply point to the fact that the bard was asked to use ballad and did not. The blame is now on the bard and not you. In fact, it might even be a good idea to make a macro with a <se.#> in it.
While I don't condone what the bard was doing for you because giving the healers ballad is common sense on Titan, I don't think you should be stating Titan, post-heart, isn't a race.
Edited, Oct 27th 2013 7:12am by HitomeOfBismarck
The number of stomps during tumult is determined by the amount of health he has left. Under 10ish% left he starts doing up to 7 stomps at a time. So yes at this point you want him dead asap. But before then you can take your time. You will never wipe because your killing him too slow as long as you can dodge. You could argue that dragging the fight on longer would mean a less likely chance of winning but thats true for anything.
Its all about risk versus reward. In your case maybe it wouldnt have been a good idea for the bard to use his DPS songs. From your description it sounds like it was a healer problem. 7 stomps is hard to manage yes, but it can be done for as many rotations as it takes. The only time i would say his stomps are a real DPS race is if the party isnt geared well and really cant handle it. Titan can be solo healed so there isnt much excuse for 2 healers not to be able to handle it.
Yeah you're right: I could make that point especially on a fight like Titan. A longer fight = more landslides that go off = you only have 8 members, 4 of which are DPS (5 in a server group) that can break healers out of gaols. "But you can just dodge landslide..."
Just like you can just give mage's ballad to a healer with low MP. If people played perfectly, the discussion wouldn't exist. I could also say that it is a gross mistake, on any fight, for a bard to not give a healer ballad when they're low on MP. Your post was correct in stating this fact. But if you would like to discuss Titan tactics, sure I'll bite.
After running this all morning in DF just for fun on SCH and BLM, the main culprit of wipes is still landslide. Neither mine nor the other WHM's pool has ever dipped into a dangerous area. More often than not, the three of us would be the only ones remaining because the DPS either were landslided off or died to double plume/bombs.
Now if we're talking about more specific, ideal situations with competent players:
Running this with my server group that does free runs, I've yet to ever have the WHM or myself request ballad when I go as healer. Most of the time we don't even have a BRD with us.
If you require ballad, this might point to a bigger issue: healer MP usage or the fight dragging on too long.
Just like you can just give mage's ballad to a healer with low MP. If people played perfectly, the discussion wouldn't exist. I could also say that it is a gross mistake, on any fight, for a bard to not give a healer ballad when they're low on MP. Your post was correct in stating this fact. But if you would like to discuss Titan tactics, sure I'll bite.
After running this all morning in DF just for fun on SCH and BLM, the main culprit of wipes is still landslide. Neither mine nor the other WHM's pool has ever dipped into a dangerous area. More often than not, the three of us would be the only ones remaining because the DPS either were landslided off or died to double plume/bombs.
Now if we're talking about more specific, ideal situations with competent players:
Running this with my server group that does free runs, I've yet to ever have the WHM or myself request ballad when I go as healer. Most of the time we don't even have a BRD with us.
If you require ballad, this might point to a bigger issue: healer MP usage or the fight dragging on too long.
The only time titan is not a dps race is pre heart, once heart pops its a race to burn him down. Only time we have ever run into mp issue is by the fight dragging on, cuz a) you have to heal more, b) someone is going to get hit by a plum the longer you drag the fight out.
Being that mobs don't really build resistance to damage or have moves based on damage dealt to it best strategy for all mobs at the moment is to burn them down and avoid aoe.
The way things are set up I just don't see much of a need for support jobs atm specially with the rate that tp hp and mp are returned
Being that mobs don't really build resistance to damage or have moves based on damage dealt to it best strategy for all mobs at the moment is to burn them down and avoid aoe.
The way things are set up I just don't see much of a need for support jobs atm specially with the rate that tp hp and mp are returned
how much MP you need to keep the party alive will vary. I'm not disputing the fact that titan can be done without a bard. what eats your MP is people getting hit with things other than just tumult. In a perfect world everyone would dodge everything all the time. But this isnt a perfect world and chances are a few people will get hit with something. Some more than others.
If im in a party in which a bard needs to give me ballad, that doesnt mean the party is no good and we cant win. I just require more MP than usual to make up for other peopls mistakes. And like i said, with ballad up you could fight titan at 5% HP for the whole 90 minutes and not wipe. He does more tumult damage, but the MP regen is enough to keep the party alive as long as i don't have to toss out a raise.
Doing things fast is usually the way to go for this game, but slowing it down a bit doesn't hurt either. I would quote the tortoise and the hare but i think you all know that story. Things usually go to hell after the heart because they focus too much on killing titan rather than dodging his attacks. If you can survive 5 minutes past the heart you can survive any amount of time after that.
As for landslide being the party wiper...yeah. That attack is extremely easy to dodge so if people are getting hit with that, they need more practice. I would rather someone dodge landslide and get killed by a bomb because at least if he dies up top he has the possibility of being raised.
If im in a party in which a bard needs to give me ballad, that doesnt mean the party is no good and we cant win. I just require more MP than usual to make up for other peopls mistakes. And like i said, with ballad up you could fight titan at 5% HP for the whole 90 minutes and not wipe. He does more tumult damage, but the MP regen is enough to keep the party alive as long as i don't have to toss out a raise.
Doing things fast is usually the way to go for this game, but slowing it down a bit doesn't hurt either. I would quote the tortoise and the hare but i think you all know that story. Things usually go to hell after the heart because they focus too much on killing titan rather than dodging his attacks. If you can survive 5 minutes past the heart you can survive any amount of time after that.
As for landslide being the party wiper...yeah. That attack is extremely easy to dodge so if people are getting hit with that, they need more practice. I would rather someone dodge landslide and get killed by a bomb because at least if he dies up top he has the possibility of being raised.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
how much MP you need to keep the party alive will vary. I'm not disputing the fact that titan can be done without a bard. what eats your MP is people getting hit with things other than just tumult. In a perfect world everyone would dodge everything all the time. But this isnt a perfect world and chances are a few people will get hit with something. Some more than others.
If im in a party in which a bard needs to give me ballad, that doesnt mean the party is no good and we cant win. I just require more MP than usual to make up for other peopls mistakes. And like i said, with ballad up you could fight titan at 5% HP for the whole 90 minutes and not wipe. He does more tumult damage, but the MP regen is enough to keep the party alive as long as i don't have to toss out a raise.
Doing things fast is usually the way to go for this game, but slowing it down a bit doesn't hurt either. I would quote the tortoise and the hare but i think you all know that story. Things usually go to hell after the heart because they focus too much on killing titan rather than dodging his attacks. If you can survive 5 minutes past the heart you can survive any amount of time after that.
As for landslide being the party wiper...yeah. That attack is extremely easy to dodge so if people are getting hit with that, they need more practice. I would rather someone dodge landslide and get killed by a bomb because at least if he dies up top he has the possibility of being raised.
If im in a party in which a bard needs to give me ballad, that doesnt mean the party is no good and we cant win. I just require more MP than usual to make up for other peopls mistakes. And like i said, with ballad up you could fight titan at 5% HP for the whole 90 minutes and not wipe. He does more tumult damage, but the MP regen is enough to keep the party alive as long as i don't have to toss out a raise.
Doing things fast is usually the way to go for this game, but slowing it down a bit doesn't hurt either. I would quote the tortoise and the hare but i think you all know that story. Things usually go to hell after the heart because they focus too much on killing titan rather than dodging his attacks. If you can survive 5 minutes past the heart you can survive any amount of time after that.
As for landslide being the party wiper...yeah. That attack is extremely easy to dodge so if people are getting hit with that, they need more practice. I would rather someone dodge landslide and get killed by a bomb because at least if he dies up top he has the possibility of being raised.
To your point if you need songs for mp cuz people are getting hit by stuff then dragging it out will only increase the amount of aoe damage, making everything harder.
domice wrote:
The only time titan is not a dps race is pre heart, once heart pops its a race to burn him down. Only time we have ever run into mp issue is by the fight dragging on, cuz a) you have to heal more, b) someone is going to get hit by a plum the longer you drag the fight out.
Being that mobs don't really build resistance to damage or have moves based on damage dealt to it best strategy for all mobs at the moment is to burn them down and avoid aoe.
The way things are set up I just don't see much of a need for support jobs atm specially with the rate that tp hp and mp are returned
Being that mobs don't really build resistance to damage or have moves based on damage dealt to it best strategy for all mobs at the moment is to burn them down and avoid aoe.
The way things are set up I just don't see much of a need for support jobs atm specially with the rate that tp hp and mp are returned
As a healer, mage ballads is really important for me in Coil progression, tank got hit really hard there
In response to the OP...maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't been paired up with too many bad Bards. I play a healer and never have had an issue getting ballad when required. Could simply be the luck of the draw. I find that discussing with party members and being friendly with people tends to lend itself towards an easy going working relationship. Sadly, people are too quick to just blame each other or treat one another callously. Some groups need a stabilizing force from the beginning. Someone to set the tone that “hey guys this is going to be a nice and cooperative group“. Simple things go a long way in positive group dynamics.
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