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it's all simple mechanics. shouldn't be this hard.Follow

#1 Oct 28 2013 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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....really, dungeons aren't that complicated. I'm not 50 yet but have run every dungeon multiple times up to, and including Cutters Cry. The reason for my post is that I read much about how dungeons are supposed to ramp up after Copperbell. I read Hitali was supposed to test you, then Bryflox was "complicated." Now, after Temple and Cutters, I am left wondering where the challenge was....until I got my first group with new to the dungeon players that didn't take time to at least read what the mechanics were, let alone attempt to understand them, and it became infinitely difficult.

To that I can see where people are coming from when they want to run with others that already know the content. After 4 wipes on the same boss in Temple, not due to gear, or me explaining what everyone should do, it was clear that as long as these people refuse to pay attention, we were destined to fail and time out.

And I am aware the debate over whether one should research before queuing DF is, or is not applicable, however, because of how unforgiving some boss mechanics can be, I believe it's imperative to understand what is happening in order to avoid/prevent a wipe.

Now, after so many dungeon runs, I can say, in my encounters, every single failure was due simply to one or more party members not knowing what to do, or not doing what is explained to them before getting started. You can tell just how easy these things are when you have a competent group of players. It's night and day.

So in closing, take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with your next dungeon run and see just how smooth and enjoyable the experience can be.
#2 Oct 28 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
SistinasAria wrote:

So in closing, take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with your next dungeon run and see just how smooth and enjoyable the experience can be.


^This
There are multiple youtube videos out for each dungeon. I normally watch 1 or 2 to get an understanding of the place.
No reason people can not take just an extra few minutes and do just a tad bit of research into a dungeon and it's boss fights.
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#3 Oct 28 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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First 10 Hitali runs were a breeze. Then the 11th hit and after explaining over and over to hit the lamps and kill the bombs then the eye and 6 wipes, I left. Next run, same thing but they finally got it. I am now on Bryflox and can't wait to see what is waiting.
#4 Oct 28 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, no dungeon aside from BC is hard at all unless you
1) were new and no guides were out at the time
2) under geared
3) under skilled (too much fate leveling)
4) cant read
5) cant follow directions

I find the reason most people have issues with sunken temple is that people cant read/follow directions to cancel doom/kill bees. If you can beat the first boss you can beat the dungeon.

Cutters cry is actually 10x easier than sunken temple. its last boss can be duo'ed with a pld + whm (did it last night when we got tired of our blm+rng not dodging ae).

brayflox is only really hard because its the first fight where a healer and tank have to both move and half a$$ healer who doesnt see tank go out of range will kill everyone. This can also be hard if the tank is under geared/doesnt dodge the frontal ae.

#5 Oct 28 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn.

as for dungeon difficulty, the only one that gave me trouble was the sunken temple of qarn, and i would say is the hardest dungeon in the duty finder (which is debateable maybe, aurum vale isn't a cake walk for new players either).

i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?

The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.

And the problem of "people want to run with others who already know the content" is only a problem because of the way square made progression. It;s designed to finish a dungeon as fast as possible to get your 100 points. If they designed the dungeons so killing trash in a dungeon was viable (dynamis anyone?) then this "speed run" mentality would go away.
#6 Oct 28 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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SistinasAria wrote:
And I am aware the debate over whether one should research before queuing DF is, or is not applicable, however, because of how unforgiving some boss mechanics can be, I believe it's imperative to understand what is happening in order to avoid/prevent a wipe.

People are too afraid to wipe. 90 minutes to clear a dungeon is generous. You can wipe to a boss and still have time to clear the dungeon, provided that the players learn from the wipe. The problem is when a player doesn't learn and adjust after a wipe.
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#7 Oct 28 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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This again I think comes down to a question of improperly set expectations. This same issue arises when the "speed run" issue is discussed, you can reference every "I was in a DF and someone dropped because I wasn't geared enough" thread (the issue there being the expectations set by the person that dropped, not the differently geared person).

If you are forming a party of your own through shouts, there is nothing wrong with recruiting people who meet whatever your specific wants are, ie. must have done this before. If you are in DF, you get what you get and any complaint about a lack of knowledge shows only that you've set your expectations to high. While I can't disagree with Keysofgaruda insofar as he says "you shouldn't have to research..." I think it's incumbent upon everyone to not be useless in events if the information is out there. You should avail yourself of it and come as prepared as you can be without actually having experienced it first hand. Doesn't have to be hours of research, just a few minutes watching a video. Anything less in my humble and personal opinion is rude and disrespectful of other people's time. That's my opinion though and I only speak for myself. As far as the the rest I think the sensible expectation/reaction is as Keys has set out. First attempt to explain if the knowledge is lacking, then make some attempts, and if all fails, leave, because nobody (other than unreasonable people on the opposite end of the spectrum) expects you to sit there until the clock runs out failing at one thing repeatedly.
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#8 Oct 28 2013 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
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Sadly i can't disagree more with most of these statements keysofgaruda

Keysofgaruda wrote:
you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn.


No you shouldn't have to, but if the information is there, and you choose not to read it on one of 200+ websites, or watch 1 of over 20 you tube videos, then you are putting yourself and the party at a handicap. I don't have to read anything before I try a new dungeon, but if we wipe 20+ times and end up not clearing it, all i have done is waste peoples times on something that could have been prevented


Quote:
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?


You have set some low expectations, and Qarns last boss is for a 35-37 dungeon, arguably 72% through your leveling career (36/50). At this point you have been required to do several story dungeons leading up to it, and while not required guildhestes have taught you of most of the other mechanics. Even on a decent group, i expect to die 1-4 times on that first boss in qqarn. The last boss isnt really a pain at all compared to the first boss.


Quote:
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.


Here is the thing, why do i have to teach someone how to do it, when the information is there for them to teach them self? This is like saying I should help people who wont help them self. I dont believe in that mentality. I help people who can't help them self, not those that wont. OP had it right, its all simple mechanics... Read up first then learn as you go. If they read it and still dont understand "hey what does XXX mean" is more than acceptable. Or "Hey it says to stand behind XYZ but i am still geting hit, any pointers"

I read 2 strategies for the princess in cutters cry. We tried number 1, it failed, then we tried number 2 and it worked fine. Dieing and whiping is okay, specially on 4 man dungeons where you cant always garuntee you will have a whm or a blm or a bard...or w/e class you need to make that dungeon easier.


Edited, Oct 28th 2013 1:20pm by dustinfoley
#9 Oct 28 2013 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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I think the definition of difficult has been redefined at some point, and I no longer know what is easy or difficult.

As for everything before Bahamut's Coil as being easy, I can think of a few things that can result in death, and even reset before successful completion. The hardest dungeon I can think of doing recently (and while I have been spamming WP as of late, I haven't done too many other dungeons) AV definitely comes to mind.

This is (like WP) more of a traditional Final Fantasy environment. You have the Ochu, followed by the Cyclops, followed by a Malboro mob for bosses.

In this dungeon, it is not so much about the timing, as knowing where to be, and what to expect, as well as dealing more damage than you take.

My first run through this dungeon after 1.0, We ran through it and beat it in about 20 mins. We had one wipe the entire run (which was good as two of the pt had not yet seen the new map). And the wipe was to the Malboro at the end (we didn't put as much focus on the seedlings as we should have, and learned very quickly not to underestimate them).

My next run through, which I did this weekend, we timed out on CoinCounter. It took us a good 10 wipes to get down the Ochu, and with 30 minutes left we tried CoinCounter a couple of times, and I kept mistaking 100 Ton Swing for 100 Ton Swipe, and we had a few issues with getting down damage practices on Eye of the Beholder.

We restarted the dungeon, made it past the Ochu on the first try. Got CoinCounter after 2~3 more tries, and got the Malboro in 2 tries. All and all, not a bad showing.

However, easy mechanics, and easy dungeon it was not to me. And other than the issue with Swing and Swipe, I have those bosses down fairly solid.

The same can be said for WP. Don't get me wrong, other than the fact that I have seen a few wipes to the slimes, there are a few points in that dungeon that if you do not react correctly, the party will die. If you are not fast enough, or slow enough in some areas, the Tonberry Stalker will start messing with you. You need to find safe points, and adjust to the aggro. These are not easy things to me. They require an understanding, and practice to adjust to.

The Slimes especially. With one or more Relic geared DDs, they will typically expect you to not even mess with the slimes, and will focus on the main jelly. As a result, the tank needs to hold (my record was 7) all the slimes while everyone simply burns the main guy. As a result, that means the tank is getting hit by every debuff the spit out, including Paralyze (a paladins worst enemy), with 5-7 debuffs on you, and keeping the mobs on you while they are chasing someone else, and getting hit by all spin attacks, it is beyond difficult to nearly impossible to keep the healer alive. And if more than one gets away from you, it's a wipe.

Then there is CM. One of the easiest of the level 50 dungeons. With one minor exception. The cannons can not be destroyed. With a Paladin in the party, that is not a tall order, as I typically stun any of the big guys who can one shot the cannons. However, all it takes is someone getting aggro, or a bad pull, or the tank dying at the cannons (falls into the bad pull category), and you lose all of your cannons.

Add to that the cannon fight at the end can end up getting messy if people don't know or understand how hate works in that fight (also goes for the last stage with Livia, had a few fights end because the healers didn't know that hate can not be transfered from the adds... So they start running the adds around, preventing people from killing them...)


TL;DR

Ease and difficulty now appear to be the byproduct of knowledge.

To me, easy and difficult have a deeper, more traditional meaning. Where it is the difference in skill required to complete a task. Someone who has more skill can complete a more difficult task with greater ease than someone who has less skill. And while the difficulty of the task is less for the skilled person, the task itself does not depreciate in difficulty.

This is a principal practice in employment, and in life in general. We create tools so that difficult task become easy tasks. As the tool will handle the difficult aspect, or reduce the amount of skill necessary to complete the task. Such as a dish washer, or laundry machine. Now, a task that would take a significant amount of time and effort, and required more focused work is as simple as putting items into a device, inserting a cleaning agent, and activating the device. When the device completes it's task, you remove what you put in, and you can move on to the next task and/or restart.
#10 Oct 28 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
Keysofgaruda wrote:
you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn


And most of these people then shared info (forums, videos, in-game chat), ran with GC members, or voiced on How To if they ever ran the dungeon again.

Keysofgaruda wrote:
as for dungeon difficulty, the only one that gave me trouble was the sunken temple of qarn, and i would say is the hardest dungeon in the duty finder (which is debateable maybe, aurum vale isn't a cake walk for new players either).



Keysofgaruda wrote:
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?


Research. Why is it so bad to look into a fight?
Played FFXI, it helped me as a player to read about info for End game events.
Played and Raided in WoW. It was expected for raid members to research (videos, forums, etc) raids and boss fights that way everyone had a "base" idea on what was about to happen. The only time we really sat there in vent or chat and went step by step was with PuG people.

Keysofgaruda wrote:
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.


Will not hurt. All I type in at youtube's search box is: FFXIV [insert w/e]
Not saying I have researched every dungeon fight, because I have not. I ran Sunken Temple the other day because a friend wanted to, strait up told him "I'v never ran, and know nothing about it." He was ok with that. Had he given me 10min, I would had looked up the dungeon to have an idea on what was going to happen...

Keysofgaruda wrote:
And the problem of "people want to run with others who already know the content" is only a problem because of the way square made progression. It;s designed to finish a dungeon as fast as possible to get your 100 points. If they designed the dungeons so killing trash in a dungeon was viable (dynamis anyone?) then this "speed run" mentality would go away.


This isn't FFXI, it needs not be a copy of.
I've yet to have an issue with the "run with people who have already done" part.
Trash is what makes most dungeons so long in the 1st place, being able to skip packs is always nice.


The use of casual players to fall back on to why a game is easy or not is starting to get old. I only get to play about 2 hours a day. I think I'm pretty casual. Heck I'm still leveling (43 atm).
If these casual players are so limited on time to give 10min to research fights, quests, hunt logs, etc. than they are going to have a hard time if they ever wish to do end game content.

Edited, Oct 28th 2013 2:20pm by Sandinmygum
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#11 Oct 28 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Default
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As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.

It's so odd that people refuse to avail themselves of less than 10 seconds of googling in a fantastic age where this is all readily available. Remember the good ol' days of nicely printed hardcopy game guides? That took some time and effort by way of acquiring the money to buy them and then going to the place that sold them to purchase it and then skimming it to find the topics that interested you. Nowadays... Visit Google, type some words in there *don't even have to spell them right anymore*, up come results, pick one, knowledge gained / or ****.

Interesting times.

Edited, Oct 28th 2013 3:12pm by Furiousnixon
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#12 Oct 28 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.


Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.
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#13 Oct 28 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.


Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.


Well ya I would have thought that wasn't asking much. First hand knowledge is great but as this thread is not so subtly hinting at, it isn't that complicated. Getting a grounding on the theory of the fight can't hurt. It's like having the choreography explained to you, with a video of it being done or diagrams even (Coil turn 4 diagrams are a great example), and then putting that into practice. Pretty standard learning model not at all exclusive to boss encounters in MMOs or gaming in general. Not sure why all of a sudden it's reprehensible to even suggest it might be a good idea.
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#14 Oct 28 2013 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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i think you guys mistunderstood my post. i didn't say no one should do research. it's there yes, but the content isn't so hard that its required. If you keep wiping then ya go check a video out because maybe your missing something that you didn't see while doing the fight. I do research all the time because i choose to and want to make sure that i know what i'm doing. the point i think your missing though, is that a video is not equal to experience. i can check out a titan video 100 times in a row but that doesnt mean i'll go in there and 1/1 the fight. A video is a good starting place if it's available but it isn't a replacement for experience.

Edited, Oct 28th 2013 11:48pm by Keysofgaruda
#15 Oct 28 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.

I think the key word is "expect". We all have expectations, and they differ from player to player. If another player has significantly higher expectations than you, then they are an elitist. If another player has significantly lower expectations than you, then they're a noob, or a casual, or dead weight, or whatever.

Preparation and research isn't the key to having an enjoyable dungeon experience. Managing your own expectations is the key to having an enjoyable dungeon experience. If you expect a group of random strangers brought together by the dungeon finder to all have carefully researched the dungeon and clear it without wiping or having difficulties in general, you've stacked the deck against yourself in the expectations department.

Edited, Oct 28th 2013 4:52pm by svlyons
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#16 Oct 28 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wanted to toss in that 95% of FFXI players would never have completed CoP prior to 2010 if it wasn't for ZAM's own Erecia.

That said, I agree that the dungeon mechanics aren't that hard if you've been reading and paying attention to the text in the game. Seems like a large chunk of the player base has the "spam thru the dumb cs text lol" attitude, which really hurts when those cutscenes are giving you basic instructions on how to perform your job in a group setting.

NPCs are constantly yelling out instructions and coaching you prior to and during fights where they assist you. 'Fight this one first!' 'Leave the boss to me, you take care of the adds!'

I love, love love love that NPCs are not static quest givers in XIV. They are coaches, assists, team mates. They teach and they help. They participate in the fight and heal you and tank for you. Heck, the guards outside hamlets will happily kill aggro for you if they need to!

Research in the game is needed only if you haven't been letting the game give you instructions along the way.
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#17 Oct 28 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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really there's no excuse for not being able to figure out the mechanics of most if not all the dungeons in the course of running them. Videos not needed at all. I know this because i am far from the best player out there and i was able to do just fine. On some runs we had a player with prior experience give us a couple lines of explanation. On many, all four people were first-timers, and it was not an issue (although most of the bosses i've wiped on at least once before downing). Also, it was way more fun not knowing what to expect. almost like playing a real rpg!!

Primals/coil, I'd certainly advise doing your homework.
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#18 Oct 28 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Sandinmygum wrote:

Research. Why is it so bad to look into a fight?
Played FFXI, it helped me as a player to read about info for End game events.
Played and Raided in WoW. It was expected for raid members to research (videos, forums, etc) raids and boss fights that way everyone had a "base" idea on what was about to happen. The only time we really sat there in vent or chat and went step by step was with PuG people.


I have a totally different viewpoint of this. I was at the forefront of raiding in WoW for many years, and there were no guides. We put together strategies based on what we observed from boss mechanics, and expected people to use their brains. That's what I expect from people to this day when I run anything, pug or otherwise, to simply use your brain. Understand the game, understand the role, and use your head to survive. ***** meters, or any other metric of success besides wiping and killing. Playing the game, getting used to it, and using your head is what kills bosses, not staring down some drawn-out guide with a crappy video at the end. If you think a player is suddenly going to become good at a game because they watched a video, your expectations are set far off. No amount of online reading is a substitute for actual play time, and most of the people who are slow to grasp mechanics specifically lack game time. I've been playing MMO's in one shape or form for almost two decades now, casual to hard-core progression, and I can tell you at any level, there is no substitute for experience, and asking for anything without that experienced background is just a waste of everyone's time.

People are so caught up in efficiency that they'll never achieve that they think everyone should have to make the most of any information available to defeat simple dungeon bosses, when really, you just need to use your brain. These same people generally have no patience for people whose brains are a bit slower on the uptake or just simply don't have as much exposure to different events, and thus how to react favorably when things don't go as planned, and I, in turn, have no patience for you (not you personally, the metaphorical "you, who fits in this shoe"). I've taught so many "bad" players how to get better, and many become better than I can be now, yet I've not once been able to teach the person who thinks the game is not hard, and everyone else is holding them back regardless of what they do.

You wouldn't believe how never I have these issues because of the way I approach the game. I legitimately never have any of these problems, and I play almost exclusively through DF these days, daily. Yes, even Titan.
#19 Oct 28 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I have a totally different viewpoint of this. I was at the forefront of raiding in WoW for many years, and there were no guides. We put together strategies based on what we observed from boss mechanics, and expected people to use their brains. That's what I expect from people to this day when I run anything, pug or otherwise, to simply use your brain. Understand the game, understand the role, and use your head to survive. ***** meters, or any other metric of success besides wiping and killing. Playing the game, getting used to it, and using your head is what kills bosses, not staring down some drawn-out guide with a crappy video at the end. If you think a player is suddenly going to become good at a game because they watched a video, your expectations are set far off. No amount of online reading is a substitute for actual play time, and most of the people who are slow to grasp mechanics specifically lack game time. I've been playing MMO's in one shape or form for almost two decades now, casual to hard-core progression, and I can tell you at any level, there is no substitute for experience, and asking for anything without that experienced background is just a waste of everyone's time.


I came from that same kind of environment and a similar timeline of experience.

Here's the thing.. you and I are not the average MMO player. For that matter, neither are the vast majority of people who read forums like this one. Most people don't put in extra time to research and get better at the games they're playing, they just play them. And some of them learn from their experiences and mistakes and become better players for it, and most of them don't.

I agree with the poster above who said that playing in the DF is all about managing your own expectations. Expecting randoms to have our level of experience is unreasonable. Expecting randoms to learn as quickly as we do is also unreasonable.

Eventually they'll learn from what they're doing, or they won't.. there isn't a thing you can do about it except try to help them learn whatever it is you're trying to do with them. It has to be their choice to go and find out more. It has to be their choice to not be spoonfed information from experienced players getting more and more exasperated with them. It has to be their choice to become better.

I can tell you that I never looked up guides for how to do dungeons in this game. I watched, I learned, sometimes I died, but I didn't repeat mistakes. Not everyone works like that. Some people honestly cannot see what they're doing wrong until you tell them. Some people don't care. And some others are doing it wrong on purpose.

You're always rolling the dice when you're talking about random players.
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#20 Oct 28 2013 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:


No you shouldn't have to, but if the information is there, and you choose not to read it on one of 200+ websites, or watch 1 of over 20 you tube videos, then you are putting yourself and the party at a handicap. I don't have to read anything before I try a new dungeon, but if we wipe 20+ times and end up not clearing it, all i have done is waste peoples times on something that could have been prevented


If you wipe 20 times, the problem is not that someone didn't watch a video, it's that people are not learning from their mistakes. Watching more youtube videos isn't going to fix that.

For some people, figuring out the dungeon is part of the fun. Not everyone jumps straight to the strategy guide to give them all the answers.

I think part of the problem here is the mentality of "if you wipe, you suck" Some are just not tolerant of mistakes. Reality is, we are all human and we all make mistakes. Wipes will happen. The key thing is that people learn from their mistakes.

When I did stone vigil, all 4 of us were first timers in that dungeon. We wiped 3 times, each time we figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and tried again and eventually beat the dungeon.

There's too many groups where people rage quit after 1 wipe.
#21 Oct 28 2013 at 9:53 PM Rating: Default
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.


Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.

In my 10+ years of playing I'll never understand why people overlook this. If that 'Front, Cone, Backward AE attack' has the possibility of wiping your group, then you should **** well know it. Why wouldn't you want to be aware of something that will kill you?

Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#22 Oct 28 2013 at 9:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?


Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.

Once again.. the randoms in your DF groups aren't NOT doing that because it's hard to do, they're not doing it because they don't want to or don't care.

The very fact you're having this discussion on a fansite forum should tell you that the people you're talking to right now are, by and large, not the people messing your groups up. We're the ones that take our gaming just that much more seriously that we're spending time here.
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#23 Oct 28 2013 at 10:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played through Brayflox this weekend on my WHM, and I will confess, I am not the 'read before you adventure' type. I went in blind, because I sort of want to be my character (as insane as that may sound), I want a little sensation of the anxiety of the unknown (from the safety of my bedroom >.> ).

I had a couple of FC friends with me, so it wasn't so bad, and we were cracking jokes and having a merry adventure and then the dragon dropped out of the sky. I dropped my controller the first time, totally wasn't expecting that. And then one of my FC mates said, "and now we get to go kill it."

And we wiped like ten times. Partly due to my inexperience, and a little bit on our first tank (who was less than patient with me, but that's another tale of woe for some other thread). It was a really intense battle for me and I just kept at it, going over any mistakes I made and working to avoid repeating them.

The main point I'm trying to make was that it was exciting and I got such a rush when we finally beat the dragon and my hands were shaking and my heart was pounding and I was like "YUS! Victory is mine!" /chopoffdragonhead.

I know that there is a part of the community that feels that the whole point is winning efficiently, but there are those of us who feel that the whole point is adventuring.

You don't Adventure out of a guide.


edit: grammar

Edited, Oct 28th 2013 9:10pm by Jjnnyrr
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#24 Oct 28 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?

Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.

And the consequences are far different. I don't mind the element of danger from not knowing what lies ahead in a dungeon. There is nothing enjoyable about being hit by a car.
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#25 Oct 28 2013 at 11:10 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?


Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.


Not if you know where and how to look. In the grand scheme of how much of your life force you might drain, it's a drop in the bucket. You could take 2-3 mins to read the strategy or you can go in blind and waste half an hour or more wiping. The analogy was extreme yes, but it's the same concept. If you don't check to see what danger lies ahead, you're throwing your life(or time which is considered to be the same) away.

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.

I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#26 Oct 28 2013 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.

I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.

The solution for you isn't for everyone else to change what they're doing so that anyone you group with through Duty Finder meets your expectations. The solution is for you to group up with people you know that already meet your expectations.

If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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#27 Oct 28 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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For some people, figuring out the dungeon is part of the fun. Not everyone jumps straight to the strategy guide to give them all the answers.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

As long as people learn from there mistakes, a few wipes on a run are absolutely meaningless. People who are set on speed running shouldn't lean on the DF.
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#28domice, Posted: Oct 29 2013 at 12:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When in the world did knowledge not become power? I feel like we have glorified ignorance and laziness and vilified knowledge and being prepared. If people take their time to look something up so they are not hurting other people's experience or not hindering the parties ability to progress through the story they are some elitist di@k. You all talk of lowering expectations i think that is the wrong thing to do. If I Que up for DF I should and will expect you to have some basic idea what to except and what's going on with your job. No where else is it acceptable to expect the worst of people and condemn the best.
#29 Oct 29 2013 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.

I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.

The solution for you isn't for everyone else to change what they're doing so that anyone you group with through Duty Finder meets your expectations. The solution is for you to group up with people you know that already meet your expectations.


Pretty much. It leads to me being called an 'elitist' and people flinging accusations of ruining the game, but I guess a sacrifice has to be made somewhere Smiley: glare
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#30 Oct 29 2013 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel like we have glorified ignorance and laziness and vilified knowledge and being prepared. If people take their time to look something up so they are not hurting other people's experience or not hindering the parties ability to progress through the story they are some elitist di@k. You all talk of lowering expectations i think that is the wrong thing to do. If I Que up for DF I should and will expect you to have some basic idea what to except and what's going on with your job. No where else is it acceptable to expect the worst of people and condemn the best.


There's a big difference between ignorance/laziness and not wanting to know all the answers before going up against the challenge.

I don't condemn people who want to memorize all the mechanics of a fight before doing the fight. However, I also don't condemn people who want to experience the fight as "new," and have the thrill of learning on the fly. I'm definitely in the latter group. A big part of this may be somewhat generational... people like me grew up playing single-player games where you couldn't just hide behind a barrel and wait for your health to come back... we don't mind wiping a few times in order to learn the right way to do a fight. In fact, I'd argue that kind of adversity makes for better players in the long run.

As for the DF, it's kind of pointless and unreasonable to have any kind of expectations for people you're randomly thrown together with. People should know how to play their jobs, but that has nothing to do with watching fights on Youtube before actually doing them.
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#31FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 29 2013 at 12:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FTFY
#32 Oct 29 2013 at 12:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Michael Jordan wrote:
“To learn to succeed, you must first learn to fail.”


Bam.
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#33 Oct 29 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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You know...I ran ST today on my BRD. I was with a SMN, a WHM, and a PLD. All three of them were new.

No problem. I'll go over everything they need to know and be their tour guide.

We get to the first boss...and the summoner just cannot handle the multitasking. No amount of looking up strategies would have prepared him for this: he simply did not have the coordination to run to a plate to clear doom WHILE DPSing the bees down. In the end, we managed to clear it on the /eighth/ try. I normally leave by the 5th try if I don't see improvement. I didn't want to leave them in the dust, though, since every single one of them was a nice player.

They also all were starting out: no real cross class abilities to help them out. The WHM didn't have swiftcast so when the SMN dropped, it was game over if I couldn't DPS down the bees in time. I could until the end of the fight when I was getting TP starved.

I totally agree that looking up endgame content should be pretty much a given. I have gone to great lengths to ensure that up and coming BLMs know the three HM primal fights in and out. I expect anyone in my FC, as a BLM, to read the guide before attempting the fights.

But dungeons while leveling? No: not at all. If you wipe once and it's pretty obvious that the player who caused the wipe needs help, THEN you tell them to go quickly look up the fight or explain to them what to do. These dungeons are very simplistic and very little explanation needs to be given in any of them because most of it is intuitive.

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.

When you refuse to teach them 'because you don't have the time', it can be a legitimate excuse if you have limited time to play. In which case, you probably should be forming your own groups in Rev. Toll. Otherwise if you refuse to teach groups because you simply don't have the time to teach 'noobz', I have some news for you: you probably aren't as godlike as you think you are. You can easily cap mythology every week with minimal effort. You can easily farm entire sets of DL gear for different classes in one weekend's worth of time. And what are you going to do with this gear? I certainly hope your answer is coil.

And once you've cleared coil up to turn 5, what are you going to do? Level a different class/job. And then you repeat the process over again. This "I don't have time because my time is more valuable than your time" shtick is kind of old. As someone who does all of the above, I have plenty of time to teach new players without even having to hint that I have any experience in endgame content. You can easily do the same.
#34 Oct 29 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
[quote] ...

As for the DF, it's kind of pointless and unreasonable to have any kind of expectations for people you're randomly thrown together with. People should know how to play their jobs, but that has nothing to do with watching fights on Youtube before actually doing them.


All else aside, this. It can't be said enough. The discussions on many topics in this game tend to quickly blur into complaining about DF experiences when your expectations of DF should be exactly nothing, other than maybe a single notion, "I've joined this party to complete this dungeon."

The argument kind of resolves itself in a way if you set your expectations of DF to nothing at all. Beggars can't be choosers. When you're forming a party through shout manually or from FC, you can gather like minded people and the argument ceases to exist anyhow. All's well that ends well.

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 8:14am by Furiousnixon
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#35 Oct 29 2013 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
You know...I ran ST today on my BRD. I was with a SMN, a WHM, and a PLD. All three of them were new.

No problem. I'll go over everything they need to know and be their tour guide.

We get to the first boss...and the summoner just cannot handle the multitasking. No amount of looking up strategies would have prepared him for this: he simply did not have the coordination to run to a plate to clear doom WHILE DPSing the bees down. In the end, we managed to clear it on the /eighth/ try. I normally leave by the 5th try if I don't see improvement. I didn't want to leave them in the dust, though, since every single one of them was a nice player.

They also all were starting out: no real cross class abilities to help them out. The WHM didn't have swiftcast so when the SMN dropped, it was game over if I couldn't DPS down the bees in time. I could until the end of the fight when I was getting TP starved.

I totally agree that looking up endgame content should be pretty much a given. I have gone to great lengths to ensure that up and coming BLMs know the three HM primal fights in and out. I expect anyone in my FC, as a BLM, to read the guide before attempting the fights.

But dungeons while leveling? No: not at all. If you wipe once and it's pretty obvious that the player who caused the wipe needs help, THEN you tell them to go quickly look up the fight or explain to them what to do. These dungeons are very simplistic and very little explanation needs to be given in any of them because most of it is intuitive.

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.

When you refuse to teach them 'because you don't have the time', it can be a legitimate excuse if you have limited time to play. In which case, you probably should be forming your own groups in Rev. Toll. Otherwise if you refuse to teach groups because you simply don't have the time to teach 'noobz', I have some news for you: you probably aren't as godlike as you think you are. You can easily cap mythology every week with minimal effort. You can easily farm entire sets of DL gear for different classes in one weekend's worth of time. And what are you going to do with this gear? I certainly hope your answer is coil.

And once you've cleared coil up to turn 5, what are you going to do? Level a different class/job. And then you repeat the process over again. This "I don't have time because my time is more valuable than your time" shtick is kind of old. As someone who does all of the above, I have plenty of time to teach new players without even having to hint that I have any experience in endgame content. You can easily do the same.


I really do need to look you up ingame, Hitome. You seem like fun to play with.


Edited, Oct 29th 2013 6:01pm by ShindaUsagi
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#36 Oct 29 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.
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#37 Oct 29 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.


And...sig'd.

Seriously, I can't think of a better way to say that.

Quote:
Pretty much. It leads to me being called an 'elitist' and people flinging accusations of ruining the game, but I guess a sacrifice has to be made somewhere


While I do feel like the word "elitist" is thrown around a bit too much, usually where it has no place, in this case those people are probably right.

The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing. You seem to be asking that your random groups of randoms are all prepared enough to have looked up everything they're about to do ahead of time, and that if they've not done this they're bad players and need to change to meet your standard.

You might be an elitist.
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#38 Oct 29 2013 at 8:08 AM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.


They are not but at the same time if you can't be bothered to help your self why is it expected of me to hold your hand and explain everything or be ostracized for leaving.
#39 Oct 29 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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domice wrote:
Llester wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.


They are not but at the same time if you can't be bothered to help your self why is it expected of me to hold your hand and explain everything or be ostracized for leaving.


its retarded to expect people to watch videos of easy *** story dungeons. its also less fun. if you suck at this game then yes, maybe you should watch the whole dungeon run before actually running it.

personally i enjoy taking someone through a dungeon on their first try. it takes like 2 lines of text to explain most bosses oh no! my hand hurts from all this holding.



Edited, Oct 29th 2013 10:27am by Llester
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#40 Oct 29 2013 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Did several Brayflox runs the past few days trying to get my battlemage set. First time in, I did not read and we 1 shot everything. Next try, the new tank could not hold agro at all and refused to pick up adds, which I tanked until he finally left because we could not down the first boss. Got a new tank that knew his stuff and cleared with ease. Same thing next run, was a breeze.
#41 Oct 29 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ramzies wrote:
Did several Brayflox runs the past few days trying to get my battlemage set. First time in, I did not read and we 1 shot everything. Next try, the new tank could not hold agro at all and refused to pick up adds, which I tanked until he finally left because we could not down the first boss. Got a new tank that knew his stuff and cleared with ease. Same thing next run, was a breeze.



I actually enjoyed Brayflox immensely. It's on my bucket list to complete my gear set there.

WP so far has been fun also. My first run I was elected to control mobs because the summoner's attacks were all "DoTy" (her words). I thought, "well I have to learn sometime... Managed to not kill the tank and win the day. And now I'm more confident to show for it.

Mechanics are not brutal, no. And my runs inside DF typically succeed. Sure there's a wipe or two here and there but if everyone is positive about the situation I find the "learning" happens a lot faster.
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#42 Oct 29 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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I guess I just got lucky cause I have a good friend who plays a warrior, he was always about 10-15 levels ahead of me, and ran me through every dungeon when I came to them. On the flip side, I have about 7-8 years mmo experience, and although I do consider my self to be a casual as I only have about 3-4 hours a day to play, for me most of these dungeons we pretty easy to figure out what to do with minimal explanation.

I have cleared up through Prea and the only dungeons I watched videos for were Cutters Cry only because everyone said it was the first hard dungeon, I watched a video for cape westpoint only cause it was my first 8 man, and also for Garuda just cause shes a little more complicated. I have yet to do AK and plan to watch the videos for that only cause I have heard it can also be challenging. I did DCimera the other day, I got into a group, went to watch the video, they pulled when I was like 30% through the guide, so I just followed what everyone else was doing, we wiped once on the first attempt, I died pretty early, and raped it on the next attempt with no deaths.

I look at it like this, if your a tank/healer, (and I have played as a tank during WotLK) you should probably at least read up alittle bit before attempting anything only cause your role is a little more crucial. As a DPS class, you can probably get by not reading up on the smaller dungeons. If you are attempting to do a raid, including Primal HM's, your a fool if you don't go check out a video, cause some things just can't be explained in party chat. Although, I don't know why people have to be soo rude to everyone, yeah after 5 wipes on the same boss where some clearly does not "get it" then yeah I understand, so just drop group, but jfc is it that hard to take 30 secs to explain something to someone. My favorite is Ifirit HM runs, where after one wipe cause a stun got resisited, eveyone just drops group, or the other day, a paladin missed a stun about 2 mins in, I watched a summoner just stand there and take the eruption, he called the tank a ******* noob and left. I guess some of us are just not perfect enough for the rest of the world

.
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.


Also this, although I think some people are just to selfish to understand this.
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#43 Oct 29 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.


And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Migard. Great attitude.
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#44 Oct 29 2013 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.


And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Migard. Great attitude.



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#45 Oct 29 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Who's your cookie maker?


"Moist cookies." - Grandma

edit: dammit, link fail

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 4:13pm by Catwho
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#46 Oct 29 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.

I never made the dungeons out to be difficult. Were it not for the fact that people fail pretty consistently though; you might get the wrong impression...


Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I do feel like the word "elitist" is thrown around a bit too much, usually where it has no place, in this case those people are probably right.

The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing.


It's unreasonable to expect people to have a clue about how to play their job? Since when?

Look, I don't ditch groups if someone doesn't know about a mechanic of the encounter. I just pull anyway and tell them to sink or swim. I do however, ditch groups that fail repeatedly because they can't pick it up after the first try.
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#47 Oct 29 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing.

It's unreasonable to expect people to have a clue about how to play their job? Since when?

I think there's a difference between someone knowing how to play their job and knowing specifically what to expect in a dungeon.

Knowing how to play BLM: sleep adds.
Knowing how to handle the minotaur boss in Sunken Temple as BLM: sleep the bees that always spawn in the same exact location multiple times through out the fight. Position yourself in a corner so that you can not only spot them easily when they spawn, but also so that they don't get kited behind you by your healer and thus interrupt your casting.
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#48 Oct 29 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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This idea that you should go into a game having read a strategy guide is kinda ridiculous.

Would you buy, say, Devil May Cry and read the strategy guide for a level before playing it? No. Nelo Angelo whoops your *** like 10-20 times while you figure out his move set, timing and vulnerabilities. That seems like a more familiar process than, "Let me read about what is about to go down in this level before I ever play it so that I can hopefully not die and complete it as quickly as possible."

I thought it went - Play. Die. Learn. Play better. Repeat until victory. When that process stops being fun and turns frustrating, you either take a break or consult a guide.

The real problem is not that people don't do their research. It's FATE leveling to cap without ever learning how to properly play your class in a group. No need to research fights if you have a decently functioning brain and understand game/class mechanics.
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#49 Oct 29 2013 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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When I read people complaining about the "why should I have to teach them about a boss fight" attitude I can't help but wonder... do you guys just barge right into a boss fight without any type of discussion whatsoever? Because whether I'm with randoms from the DF or a full party of experienced FC members I still like to pause for a second and make sure everyone's on the same page...

"No time to touch base! CHARGE!" Really?
#50 Oct 29 2013 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
I think there's a difference between someone knowing how to play their job and knowing specifically what to expect in a dungeon.

Knowing how to play BLM: sleep adds.
Knowing how to handle the minotaur boss in Sunken Temple as BLM: sleep the bees that always spawn in the same exact location multiple times through out the fight. Position yourself in a corner so that you can not only spot them easily when they spawn, but also so that they don't get kited behind you by your healer and thus interrupt your casting.


I used 'knowing your job' to encompass knowing your role, knowing what abilities to use(and when) to produce the best results and understanding how to use that knowledge to succeed in dungeons.

What you listed here is almost exactly what I'm talking about. Positioning yourself so you don't lose LoS is a great example because it applies to any casting job or job that requires you to have LoS to use an ability or spell. Understanding mechanics of the game is just as(if not more) important than just knowing what will happen in a dungeon. The people who aren't considering things like LoS are the people likely to fail instance specific mechanics because they don't understand how to respond and react when situations arise.

Kashius1138 wrote:
Would you buy, say, Devil May Cry and read the strategy guide for a level before playing it?

I thought it went - Play. Die. Learn. Play better. Repeat until victory.


The key difference is that in DMC, you're not wasting a handful of other people's time while you fail repeatedly. It would be a completely different situation if you're playing some co-op mode where other people are doing what they need to do, but you still fail and hold them back from making progress.

Generally, those steps are how most people will progress. It's unfortunate, but there are many groups where you just can't succeed because one or two people are stuck on step 2.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 Oct 30 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Midgard.


How are you going to refuse this:

ShindaUsagi wrote:
Cookies, Val. Cookies.

Never burnt. Always hot and moist.

Midgard.

Who's your cookie maker?


Come to Midgard!
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