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it's all simple mechanics. shouldn't be this hard.Follow

#52 Oct 30 2013 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
svlyons wrote:
I think there's a difference between someone knowing how to play their job and knowing specifically what to expect in a dungeon.

Knowing how to play BLM: sleep adds.
Knowing how to handle the minotaur boss in Sunken Temple as BLM: sleep the bees that always spawn in the same exact location multiple times through out the fight. Position yourself in a corner so that you can not only spot them easily when they spawn, but also so that they don't get kited behind you by your healer and thus interrupt your casting.


I used 'knowing your job' to encompass knowing your role, knowing what abilities to use(and when) to produce the best results and understanding how to use that knowledge to succeed in dungeons.

What you listed here is almost exactly what I'm talking about. Positioning yourself so you don't lose LoS is a great example because it applies to any casting job or job that requires you to have LoS to use an ability or spell. Understanding mechanics of the game is just as(if not more) important than just knowing what will happen in a dungeon. The people who aren't considering things like LoS are the people likely to fail instance specific mechanics because they don't understand how to respond and react when situations arise.

Kashius1138 wrote:
Would you buy, say, Devil May Cry and read the strategy guide for a level before playing it?

I thought it went - Play. Die. Learn. Play better. Repeat until victory.


The key difference is that in DMC, you're not wasting a handful of other people's time while you fail repeatedly. It would be a completely different situation if you're playing some co-op mode where other people are doing what they need to do, but you still fail and hold them back from making progress.

Generally, those steps are how most people will progress. It's unfortunate, but there are many groups where you just can't succeed because one or two people are stuck on step 2.
If someone thinks its a waste of time to play in a group with random strangers whom do not have to read spoilers about the game before they attempt to play the game, then, if they choose to queue up to play in a group with random strangers whom do not have to read spoilers about the game before the attempt to play the game, it becomes their OWN fault their time is wasted, does it not?

Edited, Oct 30th 2013 4:16am by Gopi
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#53 Oct 30 2013 at 8:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Most of guides are spoil free, I play I'm my ps3 and when ever I do a dungeon or boss fight u just pull out my phone type I'm the name of that quest or boss and read what abilities it has. Takes 1 min no spoilers. Ever group base game requires some type preparation why is this any different? You play team sports you scout the other team so you know what to prepare for. **** in pickup basketball at the gym you watch who's playing see what their strengths and weaknesses are.
#54 Oct 30 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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The thing I like most about this thread is, if you go back to the 1.0 time-frame when SE was talking about adding in quest markers, positions, and other aspects to make it so people could play the game through the game, many people (and I mean ALOT) got upset saying that it was taking away from sites that offered tutorials, and that it was hand holding...

But, now a year later, we are at the point where there is currently a push for people to know what they are doing before they do it.

I am simply pointing out the irony to the situation. I personally, try to learn new things before any tutorials are up if I can, otherwise, if necessary (Titan...) I try to study them before I go in.

I do find it to be much more fun to go in and learn something for what it is, but I get the fact that I am playing with other people, and they don't have the time or patience for me to truly learn on my own time.
#55 Oct 30 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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domice wrote:
**** in pickup basketball at the gym you watch who's playing see what their strengths and weaknesses are.

I don't. Perhaps you are just more competitive and serious than other people?
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#56 Oct 30 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gopi wrote:
If someone thinks its a waste of time to play in a group with random strangers whom do not have to read spoilers about the game before they attempt to play the game, then, if they choose to queue up to play in a group with random strangers whom do not have to read spoilers about the game before the attempt to play the game, it becomes their OWN fault their time is wasted, does it not?


Regardless of whether you read the strategy or even find out the basic mechanics of the fights, this is all stuff that is simple enough that you shouldn't have trouble figuring out what you need to do after seeing it once. If someone comes to a group, random or not, it's their fault if they're causing wipes because they don't know what they're doing.

rfolkker wrote:
But, now a year later, we are at the point where there is currently a push for people to know what they are doing before they do it.

I am simply pointing out the irony to the situation. I personally, try to learn new things before any tutorials are up if I can, otherwise, if necessary (Titan...) I try to study them before I go in.

I agree, but I think there are a few other people in this thread that are getting the wrong idea. I'm all for learning on the fly. I'd be lying if I said that I read up on every instance before I entered every time. The difference is, I'm able to make the adjustments to avoid dying to the same thing over and over. We're talking about the people who don't understand that fire is hot after sticking their hand in it for the 3rd time... 4th time... ect.

What I can't understand is why people are sticking up for that. I just don't get it.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#57 Oct 30 2013 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

I agree, but I think there are a few other people in this thread that are getting the wrong idea. I'm all for learning on the fly. I'd be lying if I said that I read up on every instance before I entered every time. The difference is, I'm able to make the adjustments to avoid dying to the same thing over and over. We're talking about the people who don't understand that fire is hot after sticking their hand in it for the 3rd time... 4th time... ect.

What I can't understand is why people are sticking up for that. I just don't get it.


No amount of reading a guide will help those people succeed, so the point is moot.

Edit: I'm pretty sure nobody is defending people without the ability to learn from their mistakes...

Edited, Oct 30th 2013 5:18pm by Pickins
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#58 Oct 30 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Pickins wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

I agree, but I think there are a few other people in this thread that are getting the wrong idea. I'm all for learning on the fly. I'd be lying if I said that I read up on every instance before I entered every time. The difference is, I'm able to make the adjustments to avoid dying to the same thing over and over. We're talking about the people who don't understand that fire is hot after sticking their hand in it for the 3rd time... 4th time... ect.

What I can't understand is why people are sticking up for that. I just don't get it.


No amount of reading a guide will help those people succeed, so the point is moot.

Edit: I'm pretty sure nobody is defending people without the ability to learn from their mistakes...


Actually reading the information or watching a vid is the threshold. As the OP said, some of these encounters become easier to the point of almost being trivial once you understand them.

If I gave someone some wood and nails, they might be able to figure out how to put a simple desk together without even bothering with the manual. That's us. The people who aren't born carpenters who are able to figure it out by simply looking at it for a little while. You bang your thumb with the hammer and catch a few splinters along the way, but every time you make an attempt you get exponentially closer to the finished product and you succeed.

There are however, those who wouldn't get anywhere if you left them alone with the materials for a while. That's who we're beefing with. They know what the pieces are, but they can't put it together on their own. Give them an instruction manual(info or guides in our case) and they turn into Bob f'kin Vila. There are several different ways people learn. Some people learn by listening to an explanation, better than they do by actually making attempts.

Pick any of the half dozen or so ways that people learn and apply what works for you. I'm not condemning people for not being a quick study if the trial and error doesn't work. Just suggesting that they find a method that does work and reduces the amount of time they waste; both their time and that of their group.

Edited, Oct 30th 2013 6:10pm by FilthMcNasty
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#59 Oct 30 2013 at 11:34 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
they find a method that does work and reduces the amount of time they waste
Again, if you choose to queue up to join a group of random strangers whom are not required to take steps to learn as fast as you personally prefer in order to attempt to play the game, then it is YOUR fault if YOUR time is wasted while in a group with those players.

in other words...

the ONLY time it would be MY fault your time is wasted is if I asked you to play with me and I agreed to meet your personal requirements but failed to do so

but when you join a DF group SOLO, no one asked you to join, nor were any of your personal requirements agreed upon by any of the other members of the group before you joined...so there is no one at fault for your time wasted but you when things do not go your way since no one in the group asked you to play with them nor did anyone in the group agree to any of your personal requirements before you joined the group

the only assumption that can be made about anyone who joins a random DF group is that they wish to ATTEMPT to run the dungeon - and even that assumption is still an assumption and not a requirement at this point

and im not even touching on the fact that video games are for WASTING TIME...just saying...

Edited, Oct 31st 2013 1:53am by Gopi
#60 Oct 31 2013 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Hate to say it myself but this is why I jumped right back onto my Japanese server, there's always mutual respect even though there's a language barrier. I prefer to put up with a bit of latency than deal with the shreaking I encountered on the US server I transferred to.
#61 Oct 31 2013 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Gopi wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
they find a method that does work and reduces the amount of time they waste
Again, if you choose to queue up to join a group of random strangers whom are not required to take steps to learn as fast as you personally prefer in order to attempt to play the game, then it is YOUR fault if YOUR time is wasted while in a group with those players.

in other words...

the ONLY time it would be MY fault your time is wasted is if I asked you to play with me and I agreed to meet your personal requirements but failed to do so


I don't waste the time. If it's clear to me that someone is failing and not going to fix it, I leave. If and when SE implements vote to kick feature, it will more often be used on players who aren't carrying their weight.

I think you're pretty dense for trying to blame me if it's clearly someone else fault that a group is not clearing content. Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Oct 31st 2013 3:55am by FilthMcNasty
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#62 Oct 31 2013 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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you are trying to blame other players in the DF for wasting your time - i showed that no one but yourself is wasting your time in the DF

not being able to clear content has nothing to do with what i said at all
#63 Oct 31 2013 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I see the vote kick feature getting abused. There will be some that will kick others to make room for desired jobs when the current pt can clear just as easily. It will be nice to use to get rid of trolls, and general d bags, but overall if your using DF and having high or any general expectations then your just asking for it.

The way they made leveling in this game I honestly expect few to know their jobs since zerg fate pts are the way ppl level.
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#64 Oct 31 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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huhwhat wrote:
I see the vote kick feature getting abused. There will be some that will kick others to make room for desired jobs when the current pt can clear just as easily. It will be nice to use to get rid of trolls, and general d bags, but overall if your using DF and having high or any general expectations then your just asking for it.

The way they made leveling in this game I honestly expect few to know their jobs since zerg fate pts are the way ppl level.


This.

I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.
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#65 Oct 31 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.


Well it does both. And there's really no way around that unfortunately. At least this way, if some jackass wants to kick someone for not having gear up to their lofty standards, they have to get people to agree with that assessment.

Not having a kick function is already causing its own problems.
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#66 Oct 31 2013 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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ShindaUsagi wrote:
huhwhat wrote:
I see the vote kick feature getting abused. There will be some that will kick others to make room for desired jobs when the current pt can clear just as easily. It will be nice to use to get rid of trolls, and general d bags, but overall if your using DF and having high or any general expectations then your just asking for it.

The way they made leveling in this game I honestly expect few to know their jobs since zerg fate pts are the way ppl level.


This.

I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.


So a player that wants to play the game a more efficient way...our a different way then you or just might set a standard with who he wants to play with is not a honest player? Kinda sounds like you are the asshat
#67 Oct 31 2013 at 10:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.



I fully agree with this.

Anyone who wants to play "a certain way" should make his or her own party to specifically play that specific way.

In no way should the vote-kick feature be usable with DF parties.
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#68 Oct 31 2013 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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domice wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
huhwhat wrote:
I see the vote kick feature getting abused. There will be some that will kick others to make room for desired jobs when the current pt can clear just as easily. It will be nice to use to get rid of trolls, and general d bags, but overall if your using DF and having high or any general expectations then your just asking for it.

The way they made leveling in this game I honestly expect few to know their jobs since zerg fate pts are the way ppl level.


This.

I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.


So a player that wants to play the game a more efficient way...our a different way then you or just might set a standard with who he wants to play with is not a honest player? Kinda sounds like you are the asshat

queuing up to play with random types of players if you dont want to play with random types of players is not an honest player, correct

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 12:22am by Gopi
#69 Oct 31 2013 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.



I fully agree with this.

Anyone who wants to play "a certain way" should make his or her own party to specifically play that specific way.

In no way should the vote-kick feature be usable with DF parties.


So you can't think of a single legitimate reason you might need to kick someone from a DF group?
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#70 Oct 31 2013 at 10:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.



I fully agree with this.

Anyone who wants to play "a certain way" should make his or her own party to specifically play that specific way.

In no way should the vote-kick feature be usable with DF parties.


So you can't think of a single legitimate reason you might need to kick someone from a DF group?


Someone who has DCed for a while or is AFK without notice for a while. Anything else, if I am not having fun, I have the option to leave.
#71 Oct 31 2013 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Someone who has DCed for a while or is AFK without notice for a while. Anything else, if I am not having fun, I have the option to leave.


That sounds like two entirely legitimate reasons to need to kick someone.
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svlyons wrote:
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#72 Oct 31 2013 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Someone who has DCed for a while or is AFK without notice for a while. Anything else, if I am not having fun, I have the option to leave.


That sounds like two entirely legitimate reasons to need to kick someone.



The game can be programmed to remove players from DF instances for those reasons. I do not need to be given the ability to remove them myself.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 12:55am by Gopi
#73 Oct 31 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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The game can be programmed to kick them for those reasons. I do not need to be given the ability to kick them myself.


Smiley: dubious

So what if AFK guy runs against a wall instead of sitting and doing nothing? We've already established that SE is bad at detecting AFK people.. being in a menu is enough to thwart their auto AFK kick.

How would you like to handle the healer who will only dps?

How about the BLM who thinks it's funny to pull Garuda and get everyone killed because you're still recovering from a wipe?

Someone mentioned a naked tank who would just pull Titan for that same reason.

Yes I suppose "I can just leave" is an answer to those, but when you're talking about one person wasting the time of 3 or 7 other people, the question becomes "why should *I* have to leave when that guy's the one ******** everything up?"

I fully recognize that vote-kick systems can be abused. I'm not sure one person being able to abuse the current system as they currently can is better than that.
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#74 Oct 31 2013 at 11:02 PM Rating: Decent
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For reasons like that yeah, dcs cant be helped it happens to all of us, but afkers without notice are just being ****** unless it is some sort of emergency and then its half a second key stroke of afk, or gtg. I do not care if someone has to go mid fight as long as its not for a stupid reason like to get a drink, things happen, just dont get all ***** if you die. If you think that trolls and d bags wont use this in a negitive way all I can say is wow, it will probably only take 2 votes in a 4 man to kick someone and that will be easy to get because ppl will not care as long as their not the one getting kicked. I agree this feature is needed but yet I know its going to be abused so bad. They should just add a feature that you can choose what you want in your pt. Say I want average ilvl 70, classes blm, brd, war for my group I could choose those options and go from there. This way ppl wont be punished, or kicked for jobs, or not having gear up to ones high standards.
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#75 Nov 01 2013 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I applaud everyone that wishes to use any variety of party kick option honorably but the reality is we'll just be giving elitists and asshats one more venue to isolate honest players from advancing. Right now I have two pieces of DL gear. My fault? Sure. I'm selfish enough to be enjoying myself in New Orleans (and drunk enough to be checking in to the forums).

Kick function doesn't get rid of asshats. It emboldens them.



I fully agree with this.

Anyone who wants to play "a certain way" should make his or her own party to specifically play that specific way.

In no way should the vote-kick feature be usable with DF parties.


The saddest thing about these comments is, the game's DF-able content isn't difficult enough to warrant kicking for gear. If you have the recommended ilvl(when implemented), then you already outgear the content. That said(and probably obvious), I'm not a fan of DF'd hardmode content.

You don't have to pledge your life and all your time to studying instances to be successful. All it requires is a little attention and a moderate amount of focus. It would be better for SE and the community to leave harder content out of DF. For SE it cuts down the misuse of the vote to kick feature. Restricting hardmode to premade groups encourages players to network their own server. Then again, SE's latest announcement about instances seems like they're trying to get away from that anyway....
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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