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#27 Oct 28 2013 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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For some people, figuring out the dungeon is part of the fun. Not everyone jumps straight to the strategy guide to give them all the answers.


Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

As long as people learn from there mistakes, a few wipes on a run are absolutely meaningless. People who are set on speed running shouldn't lean on the DF.
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#28domice, Posted: Oct 29 2013 at 12:00 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When in the world did knowledge not become power? I feel like we have glorified ignorance and laziness and vilified knowledge and being prepared. If people take their time to look something up so they are not hurting other people's experience or not hindering the parties ability to progress through the story they are some elitist di@k. You all talk of lowering expectations i think that is the wrong thing to do. If I Que up for DF I should and will expect you to have some basic idea what to except and what's going on with your job. No where else is it acceptable to expect the worst of people and condemn the best.
#29 Oct 29 2013 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.

I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.

The solution for you isn't for everyone else to change what they're doing so that anyone you group with through Duty Finder meets your expectations. The solution is for you to group up with people you know that already meet your expectations.


Pretty much. It leads to me being called an 'elitist' and people flinging accusations of ruining the game, but I guess a sacrifice has to be made somewhere Smiley: glare
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#30 Oct 29 2013 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel like we have glorified ignorance and laziness and vilified knowledge and being prepared. If people take their time to look something up so they are not hurting other people's experience or not hindering the parties ability to progress through the story they are some elitist di@k. You all talk of lowering expectations i think that is the wrong thing to do. If I Que up for DF I should and will expect you to have some basic idea what to except and what's going on with your job. No where else is it acceptable to expect the worst of people and condemn the best.


There's a big difference between ignorance/laziness and not wanting to know all the answers before going up against the challenge.

I don't condemn people who want to memorize all the mechanics of a fight before doing the fight. However, I also don't condemn people who want to experience the fight as "new," and have the thrill of learning on the fly. I'm definitely in the latter group. A big part of this may be somewhat generational... people like me grew up playing single-player games where you couldn't just hide behind a barrel and wait for your health to come back... we don't mind wiping a few times in order to learn the right way to do a fight. In fact, I'd argue that kind of adversity makes for better players in the long run.

As for the DF, it's kind of pointless and unreasonable to have any kind of expectations for people you're randomly thrown together with. People should know how to play their jobs, but that has nothing to do with watching fights on Youtube before actually doing them.
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#31FilthMcNasty, Posted: Oct 29 2013 at 12:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FTFY
#32 Oct 29 2013 at 12:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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“To learn to succeed, you must first learn to fail.”


Bam.
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#33 Oct 29 2013 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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You know...I ran ST today on my BRD. I was with a SMN, a WHM, and a PLD. All three of them were new.

No problem. I'll go over everything they need to know and be their tour guide.

We get to the first boss...and the summoner just cannot handle the multitasking. No amount of looking up strategies would have prepared him for this: he simply did not have the coordination to run to a plate to clear doom WHILE DPSing the bees down. In the end, we managed to clear it on the /eighth/ try. I normally leave by the 5th try if I don't see improvement. I didn't want to leave them in the dust, though, since every single one of them was a nice player.

They also all were starting out: no real cross class abilities to help them out. The WHM didn't have swiftcast so when the SMN dropped, it was game over if I couldn't DPS down the bees in time. I could until the end of the fight when I was getting TP starved.

I totally agree that looking up endgame content should be pretty much a given. I have gone to great lengths to ensure that up and coming BLMs know the three HM primal fights in and out. I expect anyone in my FC, as a BLM, to read the guide before attempting the fights.

But dungeons while leveling? No: not at all. If you wipe once and it's pretty obvious that the player who caused the wipe needs help, THEN you tell them to go quickly look up the fight or explain to them what to do. These dungeons are very simplistic and very little explanation needs to be given in any of them because most of it is intuitive.

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.

When you refuse to teach them 'because you don't have the time', it can be a legitimate excuse if you have limited time to play. In which case, you probably should be forming your own groups in Rev. Toll. Otherwise if you refuse to teach groups because you simply don't have the time to teach 'noobz', I have some news for you: you probably aren't as godlike as you think you are. You can easily cap mythology every week with minimal effort. You can easily farm entire sets of DL gear for different classes in one weekend's worth of time. And what are you going to do with this gear? I certainly hope your answer is coil.

And once you've cleared coil up to turn 5, what are you going to do? Level a different class/job. And then you repeat the process over again. This "I don't have time because my time is more valuable than your time" shtick is kind of old. As someone who does all of the above, I have plenty of time to teach new players without even having to hint that I have any experience in endgame content. You can easily do the same.
#34 Oct 29 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
[quote] ...

As for the DF, it's kind of pointless and unreasonable to have any kind of expectations for people you're randomly thrown together with. People should know how to play their jobs, but that has nothing to do with watching fights on Youtube before actually doing them.


All else aside, this. It can't be said enough. The discussions on many topics in this game tend to quickly blur into complaining about DF experiences when your expectations of DF should be exactly nothing, other than maybe a single notion, "I've joined this party to complete this dungeon."

The argument kind of resolves itself in a way if you set your expectations of DF to nothing at all. Beggars can't be choosers. When you're forming a party through shout manually or from FC, you can gather like minded people and the argument ceases to exist anyhow. All's well that ends well.

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 8:14am by Furiousnixon
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#35 Oct 29 2013 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
You know...I ran ST today on my BRD. I was with a SMN, a WHM, and a PLD. All three of them were new.

No problem. I'll go over everything they need to know and be their tour guide.

We get to the first boss...and the summoner just cannot handle the multitasking. No amount of looking up strategies would have prepared him for this: he simply did not have the coordination to run to a plate to clear doom WHILE DPSing the bees down. In the end, we managed to clear it on the /eighth/ try. I normally leave by the 5th try if I don't see improvement. I didn't want to leave them in the dust, though, since every single one of them was a nice player.

They also all were starting out: no real cross class abilities to help them out. The WHM didn't have swiftcast so when the SMN dropped, it was game over if I couldn't DPS down the bees in time. I could until the end of the fight when I was getting TP starved.

I totally agree that looking up endgame content should be pretty much a given. I have gone to great lengths to ensure that up and coming BLMs know the three HM primal fights in and out. I expect anyone in my FC, as a BLM, to read the guide before attempting the fights.

But dungeons while leveling? No: not at all. If you wipe once and it's pretty obvious that the player who caused the wipe needs help, THEN you tell them to go quickly look up the fight or explain to them what to do. These dungeons are very simplistic and very little explanation needs to be given in any of them because most of it is intuitive.

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.

When you refuse to teach them 'because you don't have the time', it can be a legitimate excuse if you have limited time to play. In which case, you probably should be forming your own groups in Rev. Toll. Otherwise if you refuse to teach groups because you simply don't have the time to teach 'noobz', I have some news for you: you probably aren't as godlike as you think you are. You can easily cap mythology every week with minimal effort. You can easily farm entire sets of DL gear for different classes in one weekend's worth of time. And what are you going to do with this gear? I certainly hope your answer is coil.

And once you've cleared coil up to turn 5, what are you going to do? Level a different class/job. And then you repeat the process over again. This "I don't have time because my time is more valuable than your time" shtick is kind of old. As someone who does all of the above, I have plenty of time to teach new players without even having to hint that I have any experience in endgame content. You can easily do the same.


I really do need to look you up ingame, Hitome. You seem like fun to play with.


Edited, Oct 29th 2013 6:01pm by ShindaUsagi
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#36 Oct 29 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.
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#37 Oct 29 2013 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.


And...sig'd.

Seriously, I can't think of a better way to say that.

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Pretty much. It leads to me being called an 'elitist' and people flinging accusations of ruining the game, but I guess a sacrifice has to be made somewhere


While I do feel like the word "elitist" is thrown around a bit too much, usually where it has no place, in this case those people are probably right.

The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing. You seem to be asking that your random groups of randoms are all prepared enough to have looked up everything they're about to do ahead of time, and that if they've not done this they're bad players and need to change to meet your standard.

You might be an elitist.
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#38 Oct 29 2013 at 8:08 AM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.


They are not but at the same time if you can't be bothered to help your self why is it expected of me to hold your hand and explain everything or be ostracized for leaving.
#39 Oct 29 2013 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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domice wrote:
Llester wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:

Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
.



you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.


They are not but at the same time if you can't be bothered to help your self why is it expected of me to hold your hand and explain everything or be ostracized for leaving.


its retarded to expect people to watch videos of easy *** story dungeons. its also less fun. if you suck at this game then yes, maybe you should watch the whole dungeon run before actually running it.

personally i enjoy taking someone through a dungeon on their first try. it takes like 2 lines of text to explain most bosses oh no! my hand hurts from all this holding.



Edited, Oct 29th 2013 10:27am by Llester
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#40 Oct 29 2013 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Did several Brayflox runs the past few days trying to get my battlemage set. First time in, I did not read and we 1 shot everything. Next try, the new tank could not hold agro at all and refused to pick up adds, which I tanked until he finally left because we could not down the first boss. Got a new tank that knew his stuff and cleared with ease. Same thing next run, was a breeze.
#41 Oct 29 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ramzies wrote:
Did several Brayflox runs the past few days trying to get my battlemage set. First time in, I did not read and we 1 shot everything. Next try, the new tank could not hold agro at all and refused to pick up adds, which I tanked until he finally left because we could not down the first boss. Got a new tank that knew his stuff and cleared with ease. Same thing next run, was a breeze.



I actually enjoyed Brayflox immensely. It's on my bucket list to complete my gear set there.

WP so far has been fun also. My first run I was elected to control mobs because the summoner's attacks were all "DoTy" (her words). I thought, "well I have to learn sometime... Managed to not kill the tank and win the day. And now I'm more confident to show for it.

Mechanics are not brutal, no. And my runs inside DF typically succeed. Sure there's a wipe or two here and there but if everyone is positive about the situation I find the "learning" happens a lot faster.
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#42 Oct 29 2013 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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I guess I just got lucky cause I have a good friend who plays a warrior, he was always about 10-15 levels ahead of me, and ran me through every dungeon when I came to them. On the flip side, I have about 7-8 years mmo experience, and although I do consider my self to be a casual as I only have about 3-4 hours a day to play, for me most of these dungeons we pretty easy to figure out what to do with minimal explanation.

I have cleared up through Prea and the only dungeons I watched videos for were Cutters Cry only because everyone said it was the first hard dungeon, I watched a video for cape westpoint only cause it was my first 8 man, and also for Garuda just cause shes a little more complicated. I have yet to do AK and plan to watch the videos for that only cause I have heard it can also be challenging. I did DCimera the other day, I got into a group, went to watch the video, they pulled when I was like 30% through the guide, so I just followed what everyone else was doing, we wiped once on the first attempt, I died pretty early, and raped it on the next attempt with no deaths.

I look at it like this, if your a tank/healer, (and I have played as a tank during WotLK) you should probably at least read up alittle bit before attempting anything only cause your role is a little more crucial. As a DPS class, you can probably get by not reading up on the smaller dungeons. If you are attempting to do a raid, including Primal HM's, your a fool if you don't go check out a video, cause some things just can't be explained in party chat. Although, I don't know why people have to be soo rude to everyone, yeah after 5 wipes on the same boss where some clearly does not "get it" then yeah I understand, so just drop group, but jfc is it that hard to take 30 secs to explain something to someone. My favorite is Ifirit HM runs, where after one wipe cause a stun got resisited, eveyone just drops group, or the other day, a paladin missed a stun about 2 mins in, I watched a summoner just stand there and take the eruption, he called the tank a ******* noob and left. I guess some of us are just not perfect enough for the rest of the world

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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

The players in DF don't necessarily know everything about the dungeons because they might be new. This is how we build a positive community: by assisting these players and imparting the knowledge we've gained upon them.


Also this, although I think some people are just to selfish to understand this.
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#43 Oct 29 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.


And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Migard. Great attitude.
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#44 Oct 29 2013 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Do you know why I queue for DF instead of looking for shout groups in Revenant's Toll? Those groups are filled with asshats and are generally just boring. It's actually fun, as a healer, to join a random DF group and see what cards I am dealt. Healing is so boring in this game with a competent group...when someone makes a mistake, you get to shine.


And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Migard. Great attitude.



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#45 Oct 29 2013 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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"Moist cookies." - Grandma

edit: dammit, link fail

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 4:13pm by Catwho
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#46 Oct 29 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Default
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Llester wrote:
you keep talking like these dungeons are particularly difficult or something. its pretty silly.

I never made the dungeons out to be difficult. Were it not for the fact that people fail pretty consistently though; you might get the wrong impression...


Archmage Callinon wrote:
While I do feel like the word "elitist" is thrown around a bit too much, usually where it has no place, in this case those people are probably right.

The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing.


It's unreasonable to expect people to have a clue about how to play their job? Since when?

Look, I don't ditch groups if someone doesn't know about a mechanic of the encounter. I just pull anyway and tell them to sink or swim. I do however, ditch groups that fail repeatedly because they can't pick it up after the first try.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#47 Oct 29 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
The core function of elitism is imposing an unreasonable standard on people you've just met; which is exactly what it looks like you're doing.

It's unreasonable to expect people to have a clue about how to play their job? Since when?

I think there's a difference between someone knowing how to play their job and knowing specifically what to expect in a dungeon.

Knowing how to play BLM: sleep adds.
Knowing how to handle the minotaur boss in Sunken Temple as BLM: sleep the bees that always spawn in the same exact location multiple times through out the fight. Position yourself in a corner so that you can not only spot them easily when they spawn, but also so that they don't get kited behind you by your healer and thus interrupt your casting.
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#48 Oct 29 2013 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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This idea that you should go into a game having read a strategy guide is kinda ridiculous.

Would you buy, say, Devil May Cry and read the strategy guide for a level before playing it? No. Nelo Angelo whoops your *** like 10-20 times while you figure out his move set, timing and vulnerabilities. That seems like a more familiar process than, "Let me read about what is about to go down in this level before I ever play it so that I can hopefully not die and complete it as quickly as possible."

I thought it went - Play. Die. Learn. Play better. Repeat until victory. When that process stops being fun and turns frustrating, you either take a break or consult a guide.

The real problem is not that people don't do their research. It's FATE leveling to cap without ever learning how to properly play your class in a group. No need to research fights if you have a decently functioning brain and understand game/class mechanics.
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#49 Oct 29 2013 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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When I read people complaining about the "why should I have to teach them about a boss fight" attitude I can't help but wonder... do you guys just barge right into a boss fight without any type of discussion whatsoever? Because whether I'm with randoms from the DF or a full party of experienced FC members I still like to pause for a second and make sure everyone's on the same page...

"No time to touch base! CHARGE!" Really?
#50 Oct 29 2013 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
I think there's a difference between someone knowing how to play their job and knowing specifically what to expect in a dungeon.

Knowing how to play BLM: sleep adds.
Knowing how to handle the minotaur boss in Sunken Temple as BLM: sleep the bees that always spawn in the same exact location multiple times through out the fight. Position yourself in a corner so that you can not only spot them easily when they spawn, but also so that they don't get kited behind you by your healer and thus interrupt your casting.


I used 'knowing your job' to encompass knowing your role, knowing what abilities to use(and when) to produce the best results and understanding how to use that knowledge to succeed in dungeons.

What you listed here is almost exactly what I'm talking about. Positioning yourself so you don't lose LoS is a great example because it applies to any casting job or job that requires you to have LoS to use an ability or spell. Understanding mechanics of the game is just as(if not more) important than just knowing what will happen in a dungeon. The people who aren't considering things like LoS are the people likely to fail instance specific mechanics because they don't understand how to respond and react when situations arise.

Kashius1138 wrote:
Would you buy, say, Devil May Cry and read the strategy guide for a level before playing it?

I thought it went - Play. Die. Learn. Play better. Repeat until victory.


The key difference is that in DMC, you're not wasting a handful of other people's time while you fail repeatedly. It would be a completely different situation if you're playing some co-op mode where other people are doing what they need to do, but you still fail and hold them back from making progress.

Generally, those steps are how most people will progress. It's unfortunate, but there are many groups where you just can't succeed because one or two people are stuck on step 2.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 Oct 30 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
And this is why if I ever switched servers, it would be to Midgard.


How are you going to refuse this:

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