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gear expectation for AK and WPFollow

#1 Oct 29 2013 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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hey guys, anyway I was never much into endgame and stuff so I had been lvl-ing other classes, but I decided I like the look of the DL robes so I am gonna try to get my tomes.

Im just wondering what am I expected to be wearing for AK and WP? Or should I just run CM and Praet if all I want is to get the DL set for looks?
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#2 Oct 29 2013 at 2:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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WP you should be wearing at least:
- Full AF
- Lvl 50+ weapon (from market or GC)
- Lvl 50+ accessories

AK can probably be done with similar gear, but you probably want to upgrade your AF Legs, Hands, Head and Feet before trying.

I wouldn't recommend farming CM or Prae after you've cleared them.
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#3 Oct 29 2013 at 2:10 AM Rating: Excellent
What you need for WP/AK, a GC weapon and AF gear. What people THINK you need, a relic weapon with full DL. If you can find a good FC with similar players, you can run either them just fine in your current gear. People just want things to go faster than usual so they moan and complain when people aren't in some DL/Garuda weapon or higher. They seem to quickly forget they ran the same things in inferior gear at some point.

If you REALLY don't care about mythic, then yes you can do CM/Praet, probably less elitist *** hats checking out your gear in those runs since they're 8 man dungeons.

edit: I should also mention that WP has more of a job standard then gear standard right now. To speed run it, people want a good tank with AOE capable jobs to burn everything down. My poor, poor monk.

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 4:12am by Montsegurnephcreep
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#4 Oct 29 2013 at 2:45 AM Rating: Default
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If you REALLY don't care about mythic, then yes you can do CM/Praet, probably less elitist *** hats checking out your gear in those runs since they're 8 man dungeons.


Actually, from what I've been reading here over the past week, the people who seem to think they're elitist asshats (i.e. scrubs) are becoming a bigger problem in CM/Prae than the "elitist asshats" ever were. It bears repeating that the majority of the playerbase with any sense about them has already moved onto WP, the people still farming CM and demanding unreasonable gear are just demonstrating that they're in the bottom part of the gene pool. I'm pretty certain you'd actually have a more pleasant demographic farming CM if WP and AK hadn't been buffed.

It does seem that SE can't win with the story missions though. They made them less attractive to farm, but as a result have made it tougher for people who are actually doing the missions to get groups, and viewing cutscenes can still be an issue. Careful what you wish for I guess.
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#5 Oct 29 2013 at 3:29 AM Rating: Good
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Castrum's getting a worse and worse leeching problem going on in it - I'd rather farm CM since you tend to get more pleasant parties in there but the last runs I've had we've had people really taking the mickey with it all since there's so much movement and spaces for people to "accidentally" go AFK for the entire run.

Perhaps the addition of an oversized tonberry would chivvy up some of the 30 minute AFKers :D
#6 Oct 29 2013 at 3:42 AM Rating: Good
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Cesaria wrote:
Castrum's getting a worse and worse leeching problem going on in it - I'd rather farm CM since you tend to get more pleasant parties in there but the last runs I've had we've had people really taking the mickey with it all since there's so much movement and spaces for people to "accidentally" go AFK for the entire run.

Perhaps the addition of an oversized tonberry would chivvy up some of the 30 minute AFKers :D


I think that's a great way to solve any AFK problem in a dungeon actually. If you aren't engaged with a boss when your party is AND you've been inactive in battle for the past 10 minutes, you get your own personal Tonberry Stalker, who not only shivs you to death, but also steals any tomes you might have acquired when the rest of your group finishes the dungeon.
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#7 Oct 29 2013 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Cesaria wrote:
Castrum's getting a worse and worse leeching problem going on in it - I'd rather farm CM since you tend to get more pleasant parties in there but the last runs I've had we've had people really taking the mickey with it all since there's so much movement and spaces for people to "accidentally" go AFK for the entire run.

Perhaps the addition of an oversized tonberry would chivvy up some of the 30 minute AFKers :D



CM is getting really bad. In fact Ive entered some DF runs which have gotten just as bad as the population around Dark Devices was pre-nerf. The second healer (I was the first) and 2 of the DPS were first time runners and wanted to watch the cutscenes. One tank was totally cool with it but the other...Oh God the other.....He just blew up at the 3. Spouting obscenities and complaining about how much of a waste of time these "noobs" were..how ****** their gear was. Now keep in mind one tank, both healers, and two DPS are currently out of service when this egg-head decides he's going to start chain pulling. He lasts all of about 15 seconds but unfortunately gets one of the active DPS killed who surprisingly turned his aggravation on the ****** tank instead of on the 3 people in Cutscenes and the 2 standing by while they watched.

All and all - I was glad to see people OK with letting new comers watch cutscenes and to handle one of those rage filled speed runners.
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#8 Oct 29 2013 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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oh so i can do wp with low tier gear? lol nice, i thought w all e speed runs and **** they want better stuff now.

i have ifrit wpn, dl legs and accessories. so i guess im ok. oh im whm so ye :)
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#9 Oct 29 2013 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
What you need for WP/AK, a GC weapon and AF gear. What people THINK you need, a relic weapon with full DL. If you can find a good FC with similar players, you can run either them just fine in your current gear. People just want things to go faster than usual so they moan and complain when people aren't in some DL/Garuda weapon or higher. They seem to quickly forget they ran the same things in inferior gear at some point.

If you REALLY don't care about mythic, then yes you can do CM/Praet, probably less elitist *** hats checking out your gear in those runs since they're 8 man dungeons.

edit: I should also mention that WP has more of a job standard then gear standard right now. To speed run it, people want a good tank with AOE capable jobs to burn everything down. My poor, poor monk.

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 4:12am by Montsegurnephcreep


People don't "think" you "need" those pieces of gear mentioned, please don't exaggerate. These "elitists" aren't this straw man incompetent they're made out to be all the time, they know full well what the baseline is for basic completion and nothing else and it's misleading to perpetuate the notion that "people" are suggesting it couldn't be done with anything less than relic weapons and full DL. If we're going to hate on people at least hate them at face value and not some straw man. The gear requirements are in specific reference to "wanting" a certain gear level for speed runs through those dungeons where the aim is really only to shave off any amount of time humanly possible, hence the ever heightening gear requests. The discussion has moved well out of the realm of simple completion and into that of min/maxing. If you're yelling about simple completion, you're not talking about the same thing as those people who "require" DL and relics. I was in a run through WP yesterday where they were varying the strat. yet again to sleep the second pack of monsters before the first boss instead of killing them to supposedly save some time... in the end it didn't get us to the boss in less than the 4 odd minutes killing everything would have anyhow. Good times. I rather enjoy speed running and optimal clear strats. do come down to numbers assuming the execution wasn't poor, weird shortcuts notwithstanding. Your initial comment about a GC weapon and AF gear is correct though and while running AK you'll steadily replace any remaining lvl 45 items as a matter of course.

As to the question of job standards you might be right, I've completed it with BLM / BRD or BLM / DRG in roughly the same amounts of time. I'm curious to attempt it with a monk in the mix but the parties I form never had one around that minute we were forming, not for any particular kind of intentional exclusion. Thanks for mentioning that now I'm curious.

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#10 Oct 29 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Here is a gauge for AK. It applies to DD only since the demon wall is a timed damage check. You can monitor your DPS off of the first boss in that dungeon.

If, on the first boss, you kill the priest later than 5 seconds after the spawned soulflayer summons the first small rock golem, you can still beat the demon wall in time, but you will struggle, and you will have to kill the bees with a limit break.

If you are killing the priest earlier than five seconds before the soulflayer spawns the rock golem, then you might be able to have the tank hold hate on the bees and just zerg the wall (depending on your tank). You will have no problem beating the dungeon.
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#11 Oct 29 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Default
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If you are in full af and ilvl50 accessories and weapons just do WP, AK will end up being a pain in the **** drag on forever and if you are using DF unfair to the people dragging you to the end.
#12 Oct 29 2013 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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shuonz wrote:
oh so i can do wp with low tier gear? lol nice, i thought w all e speed runs and sh*t they want better stuff now.

i have ifrit wpn, dl legs and accessories. so i guess im ok. oh im whm so ye :)


AK doesn't really require much better gear than WP to be honest; the Darklight weapon or an Ifrit weapon will make it faster (and the armor from WP will make it easier) but both have pretty much the 'requirement' of a Grand Company weapon, full AF, and at least level 48/49/50 accessories.

AK's a bit rougher than WP and longer to be sure (for only 10 mythology more) but they're both easily doable with the same gearset. AK's just a harsher damage demand than WP. As long as you've got the gist of your class's combo/rotation and any changes as you level (i.e. pre and post 40 on BLM for example) you'll be golden.
#13 Oct 29 2013 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quick note, the last teir of "Normal" crafted jewelry is iLevel 49. not sure why they did that, I imagine there is some stat requirement or equation they use for determining Item Level, and the jewelry just doesn't cut it for that 1 level.
#14 Oct 29 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Default
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blowfin wrote:
WP you should be wearing at least:
- Full AF
- Lvl 50+ weapon (from market or GC)
- Lvl 50+ accessories

AK can probably be done with similar gear, but you probably want to upgrade your AF Legs, Hands, Head and Feet before trying.

I wouldn't recommend farming CM or Prae after you've cleared them.


GC weapon for sure. And they look really cool too.

For accessories you're safe using the level 49 set (HQ if you can afford it) with a couple materia added in. This can be done on the cheap.

It's pretty easy to farm CM with level ~50 gear, so long as you know what to do.
#15 Oct 29 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:

I think that's a great way to solve any AFK problem in a dungeon actually. If you aren't engaged with a boss when your party is AND you've been inactive in battle for the past 10 minutes, you get your own personal Tonberry Stalker, who not only shivs you to death, but also steals any tomes you might have acquired when the rest of your group finishes the dungeon.


This would be sooo ******* awesome!!!!!!
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#16 Oct 29 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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wait.. im getting mixed responses... so if i turn uo in a DF group in WP as a healer in an ifrit weapon, DL belt, legs, neck, ring and bracelet, am i cut for speed run, since that is what everyone is doing?
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#17 Oct 29 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:

edit: I should also mention that WP has more of a job standard then gear standard right now. To speed run it, people want a good tank with AOE capable jobs to burn everything down. My poor, poor monk.


So, just throw RNGBRDs and BLMs at stuff till it dies?

The more things change the more they stay the same. I wonder how similar the forums will look the day BRDs get some kind of a nerf. Smiley: laugh
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#18 Oct 29 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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shuonz wrote:
oh so i can do wp with low tier gear? lol nice, i thought w all e speed runs and sh*t they want better stuff now.

i have ifrit wpn, dl legs and accessories. so i guess im ok. oh im whm so ye :)


As a WHM, you can do ak(which is harder) in quest gear. Healers can get away with these things more.
#19 Oct 29 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
Here is a gauge for AK. It applies to DD only since the demon wall is a timed damage check. You can monitor your DPS off of the first boss in that dungeon.

If, on the first boss, you kill the priest later than 5 seconds after the spawned soulflayer summons the first small rock golem, you can still beat the demon wall in time, but you will struggle, and you will have to kill the bees with a limit break.

If you are killing the priest earlier than five seconds before the soulflayer spawns the rock golem, then you might be able to have the tank hold hate on the bees and just zerg the wall (depending on your tank). You will have no problem beating the dungeon.


You actually can gauge the DPS by the first triple hippogryph pull, but the priest works well too.

Back on topic, gear for WP is less stringent than AK for sure, as others have pointed out with recommendations. By the time you're done farming all your pieces though, you'll have enough stones to upgrade to some DL stuff, making some AK runs pointless except to farm more stones.

Edited, Oct 29th 2013 3:42pm by Dallie
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#20 Oct 29 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Do people actually leech dungeons and still get the reward at the end? I don't run the 8 man dungeons often so I have never encountered this...if this is common they need to give the ability to kick someone to the party leader.

#21 Oct 29 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Exodus wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:

edit: I should also mention that WP has more of a job standard then gear standard right now. To speed run it, people want a good tank with AOE capable jobs to burn everything down. My poor, poor monk.


So, just throw RNGBRDs and BLMs at stuff till it dies?

The more things change the more they stay the same. I wonder how similar the forums will look the day BRDs get some kind of a nerf. Smiley: laugh


The thing with bard is that they don't have a damage limit break but the healing kind which gets used almost never. If they are destined to be nerfed, they should at least fix that anomaly to make it up to them (and they shouldn't suffer a damage penalty for playing a song while they're at it).
#22 Oct 29 2013 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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shuonz wrote:
wait.. im getting mixed responses... so if i turn uo in a DF group in WP as a healer in an ifrit weapon, DL belt, legs, neck, ring and bracelet, am i cut for speed run, since that is what everyone is doing?


I wouldn't even worry about weather its a speed run or not, If you want to que in the DF for WP, then que for WP and to **** with what ever anyone else thinks. I've ran WP on my BLM with full AF gear, the DL belt, and some lvl 49 accessorys, using the Sanguine Scepter and some random sheild. We did fine, no one died and we cleared it in about 20 mins.

Its the duty finder, its random, and if someone blows you smoke about whatever, just ignore them and keep moving on. It annoys me that people feel like they have to walk on egg shells to play a game cause some random stranger might chew them out for what ever stupid reason. Whats the worse that can happen, you make some **** tard rage at his screen, and you have to quit for a 15 min wait time, life will go on. If they want a geared speed run, they should be shouting for it, not pugging in the DF.
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#23 Oct 29 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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I'm here on the assumption that you at the very least have a full AF set and the store ilvl 49 weapon.

Clear runs:

WP: go for it, you can clear the dungeon no problem even if you have nothing equipped in the accessories, at worst you will struggle with the second boss but you can clear the dungeon as long as the 4 members of your group understand what to do.

AK: You want at the very least a FC/crafted weapon (ilvl 55), although it will be much smoother if you get an Ifrit weapon, your full AF set it's enough for the run, and as discouraging as it may be accessories are not that important just for a clear.

Speed runs:
Here is were **** hits the fan because "speed run" mean different things for each person. But let's be conservative and think about completing the dungeon without wipes and in less than 25* minutes WP or 35* minutes AK
Note: needless to say that the MOST important thing for speed runs is to understand perfectly the mechanics of the dungeon and what is expected of you in any given situation (handling adds, doing DPS as healer, etc)

WP: Any combination of DL, crafted and AK equipment that puts your average ilvl on 55+ should be enough, you want at the very least a Garuda, Crafted (ilvl 70) or Moggle weapon, but of course relic will make everything smoother.

AK: Any combination of gear that puts your average ilvl on 65+ and a relic weapon. On the same line of thought relic +1 will just make the run that much faster.

Although it may not be evident, these requirements are not only for DPS's. Tanks who cannot hold hate will force the healer to cure the DPS's rather than doing their own damage and Healers without the necessary gear will need more spells to handle healing, reducing the time to use support or damaging spells.

An finally for those advocates of "skill/knowledge triumphs gear" (big fan of it myself) as DPS you want to be above 135 DPS for both dungeons, tanks naturally should be able to handle hate from that kind of damage and healers should be looking at 40-45 DPS to reach the clear times proposed initially.

HTH

Ken

*Before anyone brings it up, I'm well aware of the record clear times for both dungeons (10:38 WP and 16:58 AK), however is unrealistic to expect that from a person who just started looking for a more efficient way to farm ToP.
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#24 Oct 30 2013 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Valkayree wrote:
Here is a gauge for AK. It applies to DD only since the demon wall is a timed damage check. You can monitor your DPS off of the first boss in that dungeon.

If, on the first boss, you kill the priest later than 5 seconds after the spawned soulflayer summons the first small rock golem, you can still beat the demon wall in time, but you will struggle, and you will have to kill the bees with a limit break.

If you are killing the priest earlier than five seconds before the soulflayer spawns the rock golem, then you might be able to have the tank hold hate on the bees and just zerg the wall (depending on your tank). You will have no problem beating the dungeon.


Demon Wall has a soft enrage of 3.9 minutes. That's how long before you are pushed into the void zone and can't move back out. Demon Wall himself has ~24k health, and the bees each ~1.6k. FFXIV App gives me damage-taken values in that ballpark, although I've been unable to accurately confirm the exact value. 3.9 minutes, or 234 seconds into the fight, puts you into the 6th repel that forces you into the void for good. Assuming you kill everything, your group only has to average, rounding up to be conservative, 120 dps until his soft enrage to beat the encounter.

People were lied to early on, a lie that is perpetuated still today even though we all know better. Demon Wall is a PAY ATTENTION! - endurance race, not a DPS race. Unless people are not planning the fight properly or are getting knocked off, there is more than plenty of time to kill Demon Wall before you are forced to wipe. The average fresh-geared DPS will do ~70 dps in AF + GC weapon, so two plus tank DPS is sufficient to down Demon Wall without going crazy trying to get full 55+ gear level in every slot. This is before considering any limit breaks as well, which give you even more DPS latitude.

Gear certainly makes the fight easier, as it does with all fights, but as long as you game the mechanics well, DPS is one of the lower concerns of that fight. My advice is to get used to the mechanics, and don't worry about gear much past AF and GC. Your upgrades are in AK, and as long as you play smartly and well, you'll have no problem with any boss. There's no substitute for experience though. You need to get in there and get pulls in on bosses. No amount of guides or videos are a substitute, Shuonz. Knowing your class's cooldowns and how to keep yourself alive is a necessary added bonus, and well worth looking into for any dungeon.

domice wrote:
If you are in full af and ilvl50 accessories and weapons just do WP, AK will end up being a pain in the **** drag on forever and if you are using DF unfair to the people dragging you to the end.


As one of the many, many people who tank AK daily with people in that gear or less with little to no problem, I can flat-out tell you that you are 100% false. I have more problems with people in better gear, since for whatever reason, they think their gear gives them an invitation to start ignoring critical mechanics.

shuonz wrote:
wait.. im getting mixed responses... so if i turn uo in a DF group in WP as a healer in an ifrit weapon, DL belt, legs, neck, ring and bracelet, am i cut for speed run, since that is what everyone is doing?


My first response is for dungeon finder, or people just looking to fill groups to queue AK with. For speed runs, you'll need a higher gear level. Assume a mix of AK+DL gear and your relic weapon. Since speed runs are built for, well, speed, you'll need a higher standard of gear if you wish to contribute. Speed clears and normal dungeon farming are two different animals, though.
#25 Oct 30 2013 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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thanks ken! that was very informative. ye right now im on ifrit wpn, dl accessories, boots ane going to get gloves sometime soon. in fact, i just did a WP and it was fine. But then again I play during jp prime time and players are very forgiving... but it's good to know that i can run WP and AK without any issues as long as the group isnt looking to clear it in 15 min
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#26 Oct 30 2013 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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All I expect is nothing. I have run it alot, and absolutly hate the speed runners that pull every thing. AF and lv 50 wep are all that are needed. Understanding the 2nd boss helps, but with practice it becomes easy. If someone complains especialy in DF, just ignore them work on getting through, or if they drop, just laugh and try again. Speed running is rediculous in DF, as you never know what youre getting for pt members.
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#27 Oct 30 2013 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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As a tank, I tend to not have too bad of issues with 1 DD speed runner. It's when you have 2, and they both start pulling or attacking whatever they want.

My favorite was being in a pt where the brd ran off before the last mob was dead, and pulled a new group, then the other dd would yell at me for not marking the mobs. I start marking the mobs based on what mob I thought the bard was attacking, and what happens? The other DD still attacks a different mob. The both jump off mobs before they are dead expecting me to finish them off, and to maintain hate on whatever they pounced on next.

We still made it through, but with a lot of complaining and whinning about me not keeping hate, and about me taking too long.

Ah fun stuff.
#28 Nov 01 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
The speed runs are starting to get funny. Some people spend more time shouting for one, or asking in FC. Meanwhile, I'm finishing my second decently fast run with melee dps...and they're still shouting.

Then how many times does the tank die cause of one missed heal, wasting a bit more time. All ridiculous I tell ya.
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#29 Nov 01 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
The speed runs are starting to get funny. Some people spend more time shouting for one, or asking in FC. Meanwhile, I'm finishing my second decently fast run with melee dps...and they're still shoutiing


That is hilarious!


I got into a WP last night through the DF, I'm on my BLM, Palidin tank, Monk dps and SCH healing. First couple pulls, the paladin is having trouble holding threat, but I'm just like w/e. After about 4 pulls the Monk is like "turn on Shield Oath", Paladins like "HAHA, I was wondering why I couldn't hold hate, I'm kind of high right now" I'm just like w/e, the whole run is a little wonky, trash all over the place, the SCH is trying to speed run I think, the tank isn't marking mobs so the monk and I keep pulling hate, whatever, The monk has his relic weapon, and the SCH had his Relic +1, I am by no means geared out, Mostly AF with 2 DL pieces and Ifirit weapon. We don't wipe, but struggle with the giant Tonberrys a few times, the Monk got killed by one at one point.

We get to the last boss, and keep in mind this is only my third time though WP and the last two were with full FC groups. I'm on add duty, which is fine because I've done it before. Now here's the thing, I don't know if I am supposed to try to DPS the boss while killing adds or not, the last two runs I kind of did, but mostly focused on adds cause I was a little nervous about the whole thing and didn't want to ***** up, either way we didn't have any problems then, so this time around I just focus on adds.

First attempt we wipe, I don't really know why, but I really didn't dps the boss hardly at all. On the run back the SCH is like "I dunno why I always get stuck with this slow dps", I respond with a "?" and he doesn't say anything. So, Next attempt I focus as much dps as I can on the boss while trying to drop adds at the same time, we down the boss, and the SCH just turns, runs to the exit and leaves. So I'm like, "Wow that guy was kind of a ****" and the tank is like, "We are all from the same FC" I just respond with "LOL" and leave. So I guess the SCH was ripping on the monk who was part of his own FC?

Either way, I think some people just need to learn to realax, the whole thing only took like 30 mins I think, which is fine with me so w/e.

On the plus side, I got the Darklight Square Shield off the last boss, which made me happy since I just got my Ifirit weapon on Wed night, but it is also the ugliest piece of gear I have ever seen.
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#30 Nov 01 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
The speed runs are starting to get funny. Some people spend more time shouting for one, or asking in FC. Meanwhile, I'm finishing my second decently fast run with melee dps...and they're still shouting.

Its all in the math. If I shout for 60 minutes but get 4 people who can do 10 10 minute WP runs thats 2.6 hours compared to just taking whoever and do 10 25 minute runs I still saved an hour and a half. The reality is probably I get a group in 45 minutes where doing 8 minute runs in 2 hours vs 5 hours doing 30-35 minute runs.

Shouting speed party caps ToM in 2 - 2.6 shouting included
Anything goes party caps ToM in 4.1 - 6.6 Perhaps higher for DF matching and derp factor

If I am farming Garuda weapons I want that 4 minute clear even if I have to shout an hour to build the party.

I don't do shout speedrun parties but I understand why they are desirable.

Edited, Nov 1st 2013 2:23pm by Yelta
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