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Making the switchFollow

#1 Nov 04 2013 at 12:31 PM Rating: Good
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I hate to finally do it but I am switching from WAR to PLD. I have been sticking with WAR, even getting AF2 body and having almost 7k HP while in party. It has worked fine for me so far, but going into tanking Titan it has been a nightmare. I can only imagine Coil will be worse. P5 on Titan is just bad for a WAR tank, requires pinpoint healers and god forbid they have to take focus off you for even a second if a DPS gets hit.

Good news is I have received the Titan sword for all the runs I am trying to do to get weapon upgrade for WAR. So when I ding PLD I will step into primal weapon and full DL gear and hopefully enough Myth to get +1 relics.

I hope they do something incredible for WAR in 2.1, as of right now it is hard to imagine them doing anything that will make a huge difference since they are being so tight lipped about it.
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#2 Nov 04 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
It's a fine line SE must walk. If warrior is too good of a pure tank, then nobody will want paladins because war would have superior DPS. That was the case in 1.0, and nobody ever wanted plds.

I'm not sure how much you can really beef up a warrior's damage mitigation without ruining job balance.
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#3 Nov 04 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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To be more effective they should up the defense on the WAR and PAL in proportion, so that the WAR can now survive but the PAL is still preferred for survivability over damage.
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#4 Nov 04 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Techsupport wrote:
Good news is I have received the Titan sword for all the runs I am trying to do to get weapon upgrade for WAR.

I thought Titan dropped a shield.
#5 Nov 04 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
Techsupport wrote:
Good news is I have received the Titan sword for all the runs I am trying to do to get weapon upgrade for WAR.

I thought Titan dropped a shield.


I can confirm that. My only titan drop that I actually was able to win the lot for was a shield.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 2:22pm by Valkayree
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#6 Nov 04 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
DomfranciscoOfIfrit wrote:
Techsupport wrote:
Good news is I have received the Titan sword for all the runs I am trying to do to get weapon upgrade for WAR.

I thought Titan dropped a shield.


I can confirm that. My only titan drop that I actually was able to win the lot for was a shield.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 2:22pm by Valkayree



LOL, I mean Ifrit. I have been spamming Ifrit and Garuda to try to get an axe upgrade until I got the Relic.
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WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.


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When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.
#7 Nov 04 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
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I read Yoshi subtly hinted that everyone's playing warrior wrong. Wonder if that's true at all? I know, I know, look at the math, but it's possible someone carried a 1 at the wrong place too.

And it's not hard to imagine everyone doing it wrong. There's generally one person at the front who puts out a wordy post about how it is, and logically sounding why it is. They then go down the line and make a lot of good points off that starting logical point. Being the first, people generally search for the "guide", and that comes up, and rather than question it, people follow it, and it becomes what is. It happens over and over again. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

Edit: I mean, I got out of the theorycrafting game a long time ago, but I know how hard it is to have an opposing view sometimes, especially against some of those guys who were there first. I read over the popular PLD vs. WAR post on the official forum, and it has a ton of logical errors that I just don't have the time or energy to address, and would be drowned out by now anyway, so I'd be very interested to see what others come up with, if there are any others.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 6:15pm by Medieve
#8 Nov 04 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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It's less that Warrior is being played wrong and more that people are doing the instances totally "wrong". Basically, they did what SE is infamous for: Testing only inside their own little defined box. It was an issue in FFXI, it is an issue now, and it will be an issue in the future. They tend to not bring in data from anywhere outside their own team until it's far too late to change the structure of an encounter. In the posted letter, they referred to an unforeseen strategy PLD can use to straight tank at times they expected the tank to fall back and rely on other tactics to mitigate damage. That's why WAR "is squishy" compared to PLD. They are both supposed to suffer the same damage, but something players found in playing PLD makes it far less squishy and more capable of facetanking than WAR without having to change the base strategy people have hit on.

As for balancing WARs and PLDs, they will never be equal. Sadly, there will always be a preference, depending on the current strategic norms. I'd love to see them 100% equal, though.
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#9 Nov 04 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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That's why WAR "is squishy" compared to PLD. They are both supposed to suffer the same damage, but something players found in playing PLD makes it far less squishy


Have to disagree here. PLD takes FAR less damage than WAR, and is supposed to. With all their cooldowns and job traits they just can't help but to take less damage. WAR is supposed to take more damage but be able to get it back faster.

WAR is not that hard to play. One of the main things WAR's do wrong is unloading the wrath stacks, we are supposed to hold on to those stacks to aid in enmity and added healing until it is time to use it. The only problem is at higher gear levels the bosses hit so hard we can't hold on to them and use our abilities too, or we can use them just not to the extent of the damage we are taking. So we end up just being a tank that takes more damage. Granted we can heal ourselves but up against some strong bosses it is like peeing in the ocean..........

Either way, I guess it never hurts to have both leveled for whatever we might need.....
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WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.


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When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.
#10 Nov 04 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Techsupport wrote:
Quote:
That's why WAR "is squishy" compared to PLD. They are both supposed to suffer the same damage, but something players found in playing PLD makes it far less squishy


Have to disagree here. PLD takes FAR less damage than WAR, and is supposed to. With all their cooldowns and job traits they just can't help but to take less damage. WAR is supposed to take more damage but be able to get it back faster.


SE disagrees with your disagree

Quote:
First, I'd like to talk about the boss monsters in the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 1 and 4. We designed them so that even tanks could not withstand their attacks when they have buffs stacked; however, at the moment only paladin is able to survive through a method we had not thought of. Our original vision for this was that players would clear these encounters by properly removing enemy buffs or kill them all before it got to the point where they would one-shot players.


So basically the bosses were supposed to be balanced so neither tank could face-tank damage, yet PLD can, unintentionally. So when they were testing, they obviously didn't fully test all the possibilities. They had intended that both tanks needed to mitigate in some other way (which means, as usual, the player based missed the "proper technique" they planned out). I know that WARs are having other issues, all of which you touched on, but honestly, they obviously balanced every encounter somehow not using PLD as players are. That means that PLD and WAR were likely tested out taking near to the same damage or requiring the same level of cures, but now people are not playing the way SE's testers did.

Like I said, classic SE. They plan fights one way, and rarely test out of that box.
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#11 Nov 04 2013 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Techsupport wrote:
Quote:
That's why WAR "is squishy" compared to PLD. They are both supposed to suffer the same damage, but something players found in playing PLD makes it far less squishy


Have to disagree here. PLD takes FAR less damage than WAR, and is supposed to. With all their cooldowns and job traits they just can't help but to take less damage. WAR is supposed to take more damage but be able to get it back faster.


SE disagrees with your disagree

Quote:
First, I'd like to talk about the boss monsters in the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 1 and 4. We designed them so that even tanks could not withstand their attacks when they have buffs stacked; however, at the moment only paladin is able to survive through a method we had not thought of. Our original vision for this was that players would clear these encounters by properly removing enemy buffs or kill them all before it got to the point where they would one-shot players.


So basically the bosses were supposed to be balanced so neither tank could face-tank damage, yet PLD can, unintentionally. So when they were testing, they obviously didn't fully test all the possibilities. They had intended that both tanks needed to mitigate in some other way (which means, as usual, the player based missed the "proper technique" they planned out). I know that WARs are having other issues, all of which you touched on, but honestly, they obviously balanced every encounter somehow not using PLD as players are. That means that PLD and WAR were likely tested out taking near to the same damage or requiring the same level of cures, but now people are not playing the way SE's testers did.

Like I said, classic SE. They plan fights one way, and rarely test out of that box.


What you are talking about is Hallowed Ground usage to get past certain mechanics in Coil right? I thought that was what SE was referring to when they posted that. PLD would use Hallowed Ground to get past the stacks that were supposed to kill any tank but they are living through it.

Everyone knows that WAR's are supposed to take more damage, it's just supposed to be easier to heal them so they are just as effective at tanking.
____________________________
Quote:
WAR has access to enough enmity gear and enough hate-inducing JA to aggro baby jesus.


Quote:
When I'm trying to decide what spell to cast I look at the mobs' weaknesses, check the day, check the weather and then calmly cast Thunder IV.
#12 Nov 05 2013 at 1:37 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
It's a fine line SE must walk. If warrior is too good of a pure tank, then nobody will want paladins because war would have superior DPS. That was the case in 1.0, and nobody ever wanted plds.

I'm not sure how much you can really beef up a warrior's damage mitigation without ruining job balance.


This is a common misconception, but WAR and PLD have a negligible difference in dps. The 25% decrease from Defiance accounts for the 20% decrease in Shield Oath, and the buff from Sword Oath is apparently enough to make a Sword Oath PLD comparable to a non-Defiance WAR.

Yes, Sword Oath buffs PLD damage to the point that it accounts for almost a 25% damage increase compared to not using it.

Techsupport wrote:
Everyone knows that WAR's are supposed to take more damage, it's just supposed to be easier to heal them so they are just as effective at tanking.


"Just as effective" ignores the underlying problems WAR has a reactive tank. Being easier to heal means nothing if the target is dead, and PLD has much more they can do BEFORE damage comes, to stop it or mitigate it, than a WAR has. WAR has more they can do AFTER damage comes, but this means nothing if WAR is dead. I can crit with IB and heal myself for nearly 2700 now that I have my relic+1. But that doesn't mean anything if I'm dead. I can't use IB before the big hit because I'm either full, or the gain I'd get from 15% increased healing trumps the usage of IB (exception: Infuriate is, effectively giving IB a 60s CD if you're talking about efficiency).

The HP gain from Defiance mirrors the damage reduction from Shield Oath in terms of Effective HP (EHP). Given a WAR and PLD with identical gear and stat placement of course. The WAR gets a base of 15% more incoming healing, assuming they sit on Wrath. The PLD doesn't have that, but they do have a plethora of cooldowns that can be used to survive obscene amounts of damage. Most of them even have short enough CD's that they can be rotated fairly easily (i.e. you'll always have at least one up to deal with something big).

And that's the main issue with WAR. Or PLD really. They're not going to be nerfing PLD, so the issue lies with WAR. Something more has to be done for proactive survival.

Edited, Nov 4th 2013 11:46pm by Quor
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#13 Nov 05 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Techsupport wrote:
Quote:
That's why WAR "is squishy" compared to PLD. They are both supposed to suffer the same damage, but something players found in playing PLD makes it far less squishy


Have to disagree here. PLD takes FAR less damage than WAR, and is supposed to. With all their cooldowns and job traits they just can't help but to take less damage. WAR is supposed to take more damage but be able to get it back faster.


SE disagrees with your disagree

Quote:
First, I'd like to talk about the boss monsters in the Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 1 and 4. We designed them so that even tanks could not withstand their attacks when they have buffs stacked; however, at the moment only paladin is able to survive through a method we had not thought of. Our original vision for this was that players would clear these encounters by properly removing enemy buffs or kill them all before it got to the point where they would one-shot players.


So basically the bosses were supposed to be balanced so neither tank could face-tank damage, yet PLD can, unintentionally. So when they were testing, they obviously didn't fully test all the possibilities. They had intended that both tanks needed to mitigate in some other way (which means, as usual, the player based missed the "proper technique" they planned out). I know that WARs are having other issues, all of which you touched on, but honestly, they obviously balanced every encounter somehow not using PLD as players are. That means that PLD and WAR were likely tested out taking near to the same damage or requiring the same level of cures, but now people are not playing the way SE's testers did.

Like I said, classic SE. They plan fights one way, and rarely test out of that box.



All they are speaking of is pretty much Caduceus with many stacks (hallowed), ADS if a tank doesn't get a swap off (hallowed or other defensives), dreanoughts (hallowed), and possibly Twin if one of your healers gets conflagged and the tank doesn't quite make it to conflag before death sentence goes off. Again, hallowed.

That's all they mean.

Hallowed is huge. Even giving warriors something like hallowed, you would still never see one in T5. We have a lot of 'main' warriors who actually benched their warriors because paladin is flat out more effective in coil on every single fight.

So SE either has some awesome secrets regarding WAR tanking that they're hiding or they designed their endgame dungeon horribly. Guess which one I'm leaning towards?

Edited, Nov 5th 2013 12:11pm by HitomeOfBismarck
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