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The long waits for updatesFollow

#1 Nov 11 2013 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Does anyone else think that Square Enix should drop this schedule of doing big patches every few months?

It's been a couple of months since launch and I think people are getting quite bored - and most of what's in the 2.1 patch was originally planned for launch, so people aren't that excited about it.

I think it would be much better if they did smaller updates here and there, especially for balancing purposes, rather than making people wait this long.

I think FFXI also did somewhat large updates with big gaps in between and it was pretty frustrating then as well. Especially in the case of balancing/class tweaks, I wish they would come more often (as necessary), not clumped into a big update that you have to wait forever for.
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#2 Nov 11 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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at some point in the last couple years, 3-4 months apparently became a long time between updates. Although they should have changed dungeon exp by now. Other than that, i don't have any issue with their schedule as it is.
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#3 Nov 11 2013 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
There's still plenty to do for most players, and they need to make sure they don't introduce new content too quickly if that makes older content obsolete or too difficult to find parties for.

The pace seems just about right, imo. I agree with the comment about fixing dungeon exp though... not sure why they're waiting on that.

This update will expand the ways to get allegan stones, and that will make obtaining relic weapons/gear more entertaining, which will provide more incentive to redo existing content on multiple jobs... plus, we'll have new dungeons and primal modes, which will further break up the grind.

I'm more curious as to what will be implemented in the NEXT big update... as you said, we've known about what's coming up for a very long time now, but we still don't know much (if anything) about what will follow.
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#4 Nov 11 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
I can't imagine at this point that EVERYONE has easily cleared coil. I'm still having fun varying my activities, leveling other jobs, crafting, gathering, Garuda farming, Titan farming. Helping random shouters on Prae, CM, tanking lower level dungeons for people, the list goes on and on.

If you really have nothing to do, take a little break, play some other games. I don't know what else to tell ya, but if you're the type that's gone through ALL this content, it won't matter what they release. You'll go through it in a week or two and complain. The only reason people didn't blast through FFXI was because the drop rates on most things were so abysmal, along with acquiring pop sets that **** took forever to accomplish.
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#5 Nov 11 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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They should be focussing on other things.

Housing is interesting, dont get me wrong, but right now the amount of blatent (and apparently easy) hacking that takes place, prompting an emergency maintenance and/or rollbacks every week again just needs to stop.

I cant go through a single zone without seeing 2-3 people mining under the ground, mass-farming monsters from out of their reach under the ground, or circumventing game mechanics they shouldnt be able to. They need to take a moment to adress the way the server handles things.

It is the only and most important thing they should focus on with all their might if they want this game to last.
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#6 Nov 11 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Nah.

The RMT situation really has extremely little impact on most players. This game was designed so you can progress very easily without needing to buy from other players. Its not like FFXI. They need to fix that stuff, but not at the expense of more content. Shouldn't have too many cooks in the kitchen, either.
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#7 Nov 11 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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I think they'll probably pick up the pace for patches at the game chugs along.

The first few months after any major software implementation are going to be spent doing major bug fixes rather than developing new features. Like it or not, while the design team is probably separate from the bug fix team, it's going to be the same back end coders who actually write the guts of the game as the ones who have spent the last two months stomping bugs non stop. They literally lost that first month of time after the game came out just putting out fires. I think they had wanted to release the new content by now, but losing a month of development time means you are a month behind and there's not much you can do about it.

FFXI releases its content reliably every two months these days.
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#8 Nov 11 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Might be a bit of a stretch delaying this patch till the end of December. The endgame community is growing very impatient from what I'm observing (FC members dropping off face of Eorzea because nothing to do) and it is barely the middle of November. I've kept myself occupied with multiple classes...but I can't actually do anything on those classes due to mythology cap.

I suppose people will take a one month break and come back when CT hits. Sure doesn't help, though, if you're trying to kill a dragon and people keep leaving.
#9 Nov 11 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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but I can't actually do anything on those classes due to mythology cap.


I'm guessing they installed that just to keep people from getting EVERYTHING before the first patch hits. Wouldn't surprise me if they eased up on that after the first big update is implemented.
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#10 Nov 11 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Might be a bit of a stretch delaying this patch till the end of December. The endgame community is growing very impatient from what I'm observing (FC members dropping off face of Eorzea because nothing to do) and it is barely the middle of November. I've kept myself occupied with multiple classes...but I can't actually do anything on those classes due to mythology cap.

I suppose people will take a one month break and come back when CT hits. Sure doesn't help, though, if you're trying to kill a dragon and people keep leaving.


This is the biggest issue right now. Coil being only 5 turns (4 bosses) I could deal with easily if the game were designed around actually allowing you to gear up in Coil in order to prepare for future events. The cap destroys the entire purpose of having all classes on one job when you can only realistically gear up one job at the moment. If the cap were job based there wouldn't even be that much of an issue with having a cap in the first place.

Or I'd even gladly take the ability to do Coil more than once a week even if you could only get gear once if only so that I could run with a different group of people *OR* actually do something else than tank if someone needed me to.

It's a really poor stalling technique that works in something like WoW or Rift due to having alts, but not in FFXIV.

Thayos wrote:
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but I can't actually do anything on those classes due to mythology cap.


I'm guessing they installed that just to keep people from getting EVERYTHING before the first patch hits. Wouldn't surprise me if they eased up on that after the first big update is implemented.


Except that it's poorly thought out. You're *never* going to stop the top 1%. They get around it now by creating multiple characters and getting *those* geared so they can actually swap if something's needed on the fly. As of right now that's not as easily done with someone having only the one character unless you get extremely 'lucky' with coil drops that no one else in the group could use.

Much like the mailbox excuse it's punishing the majority because of the minority. I'm not going to gear up all jobs anytime soon (I only have 2 at 50 anyway), but the option to actually gear up another job with the highest current level gear would have been nice to have.

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 5:40pm by Viertel

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 5:41pm by Viertel
#11 Nov 11 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually dont mind the way the end gear is limited. Youre forced to specialize one job at a time, and i dont see that as a bad thing. It helps everyone from being everyone else. Besides, getting a relic and full DL is enough to clear everything in the game except the higher tiers of coil which needs a bit more gear. If you look at FF11 it was the same thing. There was no cap on how often you could do content outside dynamis and einherjar, but there was a cap in the form of how long it took to get that gear. I had 4 decked out jobs out of 20 in 6-7 years of playing. Thats not even a quarter of all the classes. Thats also considering some of my jobs shared gear such as nin and sam, and partly bard.

I honestly think the issue right now is that DL is too easy to get, with the only gear actually taking work to get is allagan.
#12 Nov 11 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
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i also sit in the "happy with gated myths" side of the room.

1. I like having to choose which job(s) to focus on (am reminded of the one thing i didn't like about FFXII; the license board, which basically made all characters able to do all things. I totally understand how that's perfect for some people, but it didn't work for me)

2. If myths had a much higher cap, I'd end up running out of time to obtain as many as I'd want to from week to week. As it is now, it fits quite well into my schedule.
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#13 Nov 11 2013 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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The cap destroys the entire purpose of having all classes on one job when you can only realistically gear up one job at the moment.


It's also worth remembering that many players don't really care about endgame, and for these players, there is a ton of value (and fun/accomplishment) in just leveling the different jobs to 50. Not everyone is hardcore... and the number of people who genuinely feel like they're out of things to do makes up a small percentage of the playerbase.

EDIT: I also don't think it's too easy to get DL gear. It takes a lot of grinding to get one full set... it's enough of a grind to deter me from farming for more jobs, at least for the time being... and while I'm not the most hardcore gamer, I'm not a casual gamer, either.

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 3:50pm by Thayos
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#14 Nov 11 2013 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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The cap destroys the entire purpose of having all classes on one job when you can only realistically gear up one job at the moment.


It's also worth remembering that many players don't really care about endgame, and for these players, there is a ton of value (and fun/accomplishment) in just leveling the different jobs to 50. Not everyone is hardcore... and the number of people who genuinely feel like they're out of things to do makes up a small percentage of the playerbase.

EDIT: I also don't think it's too easy to get DL gear. It takes a lot of grinding to get one full set... it's enough of a grind to deter me from farming for more jobs, at least for the time being... and while I'm not the most hardcore gamer, I'm not a casual gamer, either.

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 3:50pm by Thayos


Theres a difference though between being easy and being time consuming. DL can be obtained simply by throwing time at dungeons. For some people that might not be a lot of time, but nonetheless easy.

Allagan can also be time consuming because of the nature of random drops, but is difficult to obtain because of the method required to get it.
#15 Nov 11 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
i also sit in the "happy with gated myths" side of the room.

1. I like having to choose which job(s) to focus on (am reminded of the one thing i didn't like about FFXII; the license board, which basically made all characters able to do all things. I totally understand how that's perfect for some people, but it didn't work for me)
The difference in FFXIV being that you can't access all of those abilities at the same time, especially in instances (where it matters).

Llester wrote:
2. If myths had a much higher cap, I'd end up running out of time to obtain as many as I'd want to from week to week. As it is now, it fits quite well into my schedule.
That is a silly reason to have the current mythology cap, you have to admit that.

You aren't in any way obligated to cap out every week.

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 5:57pm by Kirby
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#16 Nov 11 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Viertel wrote:
If the cap were job based there wouldn't even be that much of an issue with having a cap in the first place.

Or I'd even gladly take the ability to do Coil more than once a week even if you could only get gear once if only so that I could run with a different group of people *OR* actually do something else than tank if someone needed me to.


This is what I was thinking too.

I'm actually concerned they didn't think this out when they were planning it and wonder if CT will follow the same trend. Why not have job-based myth caps? Like you said, you aren't going to stop those **** bent on gearing multiple jobs. Many people I know are now gearing a second character just to bypass the myth bull.

I mean that's great if you want to make another character just for endgame but uh..I personally do not want to. Thought the purpose of the job/class system was to prevent making a bunch of alts like you would in WoW and such, you know?
#17 Nov 11 2013 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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I can deal with a few months between content. What I'm quickly growing tired of is all the maintenance. Pick one **** day of the week already.
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#18 Nov 11 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I remember right, they're rebooting the servers during the twice weekly scheduled maintenance.

Edited, Nov 11th 2013 9:38pm by Catwho
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#19 Nov 11 2013 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Depends on the player really. The schedule can work the way it is, but they need enough content to fill 3 months until the next one rolls out.
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#20 Nov 11 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I'm not a fan of the 3+ month patch cycle. Little tweaks that can be implemented weekly aside, it's also not as if all content is intrinsically linked. Theoretically, the functionality of Extreme Mode Primals should have no effect on Crystal Tower, PvP, Housing, and whatever combination of those and other unnamed features. In my mind, if they are ready, you add them. Part of Yoshi's onus on the whole, "We're not doing the F2P route!" was the promise of an ambitious and robust update schedule. Right now, I don't see SE doing anything fundamentally different than, say, Rift, which does weekly patches with various adjustments and fixes as they're ready. They still have their "big patches" like going from 2.4 to 2.5, yes, but it's a bit difficult to claim things are so dry.

Though with both games, I express concern for the players who are endgame but done particularly care for the raid scene. When I see 2.1 and "Even More Dungeons(tm)!" as the main selling point, with housing being the definition of fluff (especially if not individual housing), and PvP being an incredibly niche demographic, I have to ask myself what's in the patch for players with none of these interests? While I won't sit here and absurdly claim everyone has multiple (or all) 50s with top end gear and +1 relics, the leveling and questing game is a bit thin, as well as FATEs honestly having zero endgame relevancy. Though like with other mentioned activities, these should be modular. More FATEs shouldn't need a giant patch. More quests shouldn't need a giant patch. More GC ranks shouldn't need a giant patch. New craft recipes shouldn't need a giant patch.

Some annoying redundancy there, perhaps, but consider waiting 3-4 months only to get... nothing new. That is a problem MMOs need to be mindful of, especially if you're going the monthly fee route. It means someone might unsub. It means they might not come back. It can then mean a chain reaction due to social ties and word of mouth. The money's there. You don't claim 1.5m subs for it not to be. Money makes content happen, and if they don't want to spend it on XIV, well, we're back to XI all over again with what's making you the big bucks not being the priority of said bucks.
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#21 Nov 11 2013 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's simply mirroring the JP release of FFXI. I'd normally apologize for comparing the two games (because I know how much people just love that on this forum)...but they're run by the same company. Wouldn't be too farfetched to say they had similar business models.

Think back. Maybe you didn't play during JP release. Maybe you played at NA PC release. What was there to do if you were level capped at 50 at the time prior to NA PC release (Zilart came out a little earlier in Japan I think?)? Exactly the same thing we're having issues with now.

Problem is, leveling took much longer in 11, the world was more vast, and everything required a party to do. This slowed down the hardcore community much more than the gate that has been placed upon us in 14.

Times have changed, MMOs have evolved, etc, etc, etc.

I agree 100% with everything you said, Seriha. How are they enticing players not interested in the endgame scene? How are they even enticing players who are in the endgame scene with rumored gear from CT being weaker than coil gear?

I point to the profits as do you and wonder where they are going to. 14 isn't the only game they are developing but it did just rake in a nice amount of revenue. Now there are two paths:

1) Use that money to add new content in a timely manner to keep people paying the subscription fee

or

2) Use the money to fund other projects and leave 14 in 11's predicament
#22 Nov 12 2013 at 5:12 AM Rating: Default
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Think back. Maybe you didn't play during JP release. Maybe you played at NA PC release. What was there to do if you were level capped at 50 at the time prior to NA PC release (Zilart came out a little earlier in Japan I think?)? Exactly the same thing we're having issues with now.


XIV has several clear and distinct advantages. The majority of XIV's mechanics come from other games. It should be easier to crank out content when you already have the formula. At least XI can say that while not everything was well received, they were forging into unexplored territory.

It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Now there are two paths:

1) Use that money to add new content in a timely manner to keep people paying the subscription fee

or

2) Use the money to fund other projects and leave 14 in 11's predicament


1) This is the biggest argument I have against subscription based MMOs. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way(probably due to the nature of my own job), but I'd feel much more motivated to put out engaging content that keeps players interested if I was allowing people to play for free. It's almost like a donation based system where players reward the developer by paying for a service they already receive. SE says pay up and gives you a 'promise' to create more content than their competitors. This is where all the misdirected anger about players being entitled comes from. In reality, they are entitled.

2) All I can think of here is the revenue that XI was bringing in. Undoubtedly, XIV has a lot of players that transferred over from XI. There are probably also a few who still play both. The initial popularity spike kinda splintered the community. No denying that XI wasn't the subscription powerhouse it used to be circa ToAU, but XIV pretty much killed it off. A buddy on Asura reports /sea all of only a few hundred players during prime time as opposed to the 3k+ you'd find on just a few years ago.

My nostalgia goggles broke long, long ago. Given the option though... if I had to pick a game to kill off it would have been XIV. If all the time and effort making XIV had instead been focused on 'updating' FFXI, they probably could have brought back about the same number of players as we'll see eventually settle into playing XIV.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 6:14am by FilthMcNasty
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#23 Nov 12 2013 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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It should be easier to crank out content when you already have the formula.


It's only easier if the other games also give you their source code.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 9:18am by Catwho
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#24 Nov 12 2013 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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On an anecdotal note, I've seen this wearing of patience myself. People just disappear and don't log in anymore. Or you see them for 1-2 hours a week for Coil and then they vanish. That's bad for community when the heard of regulars grows thin. Those who still log in have fewer, if any, "friends" to talk to, and eventually they also get bored and log in less. It not only affects hard core end game players it also affects the medium/soft core players that are in those FCs because it acts as a domino effect, first the raiders stop logging in, then the rest slowly drift out to join them in other games or just simply not playing.

Nothing happens over night and this won't kill the game, but slow major patches don't seem necessary anymore except where it concerns a very large addition to the core of the game, like housing. Other things, as mentioned above, like extreme primals, can be dropped in as you go to keep people patient.

This is the key takeaway for me anyhow seeing the shifting culture of MMORPG communities. People don't seem to be as patient as they once were and not playing to that, by stringing people along with minor content between major content is a mistake.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 9:46am by Furiousnixon
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#25 Nov 12 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.


I disagree, IMHO ARR is a new game altogether... and is not a 3 year old game.

As such, 2 months without a significant update is not the end of the world. Anyone who is bored at this point has nobody to blame but themselves for rushing to end-game and not taking part in all of the activities along the way.
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#26 Nov 12 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.


I disagree, IMHO ARR is a new game altogether... and is not a 3 year old game.

As such, 2 months without a significant update is not the end of the world. Anyone who is bored at this point has nobody to blame but themselves for rushing to end-game and not taking part in all of the activities along the way.


I think this is a point that's getting overlooked. Us part timers still aren't even finished with the main storyline yet.

Granted, I frittered away a lot of the last few weeks fishing, but it's nice to have a steady source of income as I approach level 40.
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#27 Nov 12 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.


I disagree, IMHO ARR is a new game altogether... and is not a 3 year old game.

As such, 2 months without a significant update is not the end of the world. Anyone who is bored at this point has nobody to blame but themselves for rushing to end-game and not taking part in all of the activities along the way.


I think this is a point that's getting overlooked. Us part timers still aren't even finished with the main storyline yet.

Granted, I frittered away a lot of the last few weeks fishing, but it's nice to have a steady source of income as I approach level 40.


I would consider myself to be a "casual" player (at least compared to how I almost made FFXI a full-time job back in the day!)

And I have 4 level 50 jobs,, not one of them is a battle class...

(MIN,LTW,GSM,ARM)

I'm past Stone Vigil now, and coming towards the final stretch of the storyline quests... but I'm doing it in style.. if I need gear, I make it (HQ all the way baby!)

I'm in no rush this time, it's an MMO and it will be there when I'm ready to complete the story and start end-game grinding... The game is not going away tomorrow.


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#28 Nov 12 2013 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not really sure the content argument is quite a two-way street.

There are those that say "I'm bored I have nothing left to do." and those that say "Well idk why you're bored because I'm not done anything yet."

I don't see the harm in having more frequent content for those that are slower because they're not going to be "up-to-date" no matter when the content is released but it merely extends the target they'll never hit, giving them even more to do that they haven't gotten to yet. Nor does it leave them with nobody to do the old things with because apparently the "hardcore" contingent is the minority to be disregarded as being too fast for their own good... If that's the case there should still be a majority somewhere out there to do stuff with.

In the inverse, for this minority of "hardcore" people, not having content to do leaves them exactly nowhere with nothing to do. And then they leave.

I may be misunderstanding here but does it not seem that one end result causes people to leave while the other has no meaningful impact?

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:02am by Furiousnixon
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#29 Nov 12 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
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Furiousnixon wrote:
I'm not really sure the content argument is quite a two-way street.

There are those that say "I'm bored I have nothing left to do." and those that say "Well idk why you're bored because I'm not done anything yet."

I don't see the harm in having more frequent content for those that are slower because they're not going to be "up-to-date" no matter when the content is released but it merely extends the target they'll never hit, giving them even more to do that they haven't gotten to yet. Nor does it leave them with nobody to do the old things with because apparently the "hardcore" contingent is the minority to be disregarded as being too fast for their own good... If that's the case there should still be a majority somewhere out there to do stuff with.

In the inverse, for this minority of "hardcore" people, not having content to do leaves them exactly nowhere with nothing to do. And then they leave.

I may be misunderstanding here but does it not seem that one end result causes people to leave while the other has no meaningful impact?

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:02am by Furiousnixon


I think you misunderstand the counter-argument. Anyone who is bored is probably a game-hopper... they go after the latest and greatest game, rush to beat the content, then get bored and move on to the next one... this will always happen, it's been a part of every MMO I've played in the past dozen or so years anyway.

The people who are not bored are exploring the other content besides dungeon-grinding and are crafting, gathering, etc. while also leveling their battle classes... it's not that they are not playing, it's just that they are absorbing ALL of the content, not just some of it.

There's really no way to be at 50 in all battle classes and DoH / DoL classes and have done everything there is to do in just 2 months...


Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:09am by Hairspray
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#30 Nov 12 2013 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Yup, saying this game is over three years old is incredibly misleading.

ARR is a new game. Not even the storyline is the same. This game is actually a sequel to the first FFXIV, but SE did not want to brand it as such... So the called it a relaunch, even thou everything about this game screams "sequel."
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#31 Nov 12 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hairspray wrote:
Catwho wrote:
I think this is a point that's getting overlooked. Us part timers still aren't even finished with the main storyline yet.

Granted, I frittered away a lot of the last few weeks fishing, but it's nice to have a steady source of income as I approach level 40.
I would consider myself to be a "casual" player (at least compared to how I almost made FFXI a full-time job back in the day!)

And I have 4 level 50 jobs,, not one of them is a battle class...

(MIN,LTW,GSM,ARM)

I'm past Stone Vigil now, and coming towards the final stretch of the storyline quests... but I'm doing it in style.. if I need gear, I make it (HQ all the way baby!)

I'm in no rush this time, it's an MMO and it will be there when I'm ready to complete the story and start end-game grinding... The game is not going away tomorrow.
I'm an odd bird since I waffled the first month over what character to play. I eventually settled with my Lamia character where all my real life friends are. So I wasn't even part time that first month... I was just auditioning.

I play for a few hours 3-4 times a week. After trying so hard in FFXI only to have my ultimate goals disintegrate* because I couldn't be in endgame any more, I've decided not to participate in the rat race of MMO endgames any more. I'm going to take my time and I'm going to enjoy myself, dammit. And part of that enjoyment means logging off around 11PM at night so I can get enough sleep to do well at work the next day.

*Four years I spent working on Gjallarhorn to be Uber Endgame Bard, for what? I'm on BLM/WHM these days spamming Stone I for 1000+ damage because BLM is utterly broken and ten times more fun - and no one wants relic bards any more!

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:27am by Catwho
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#32 Nov 12 2013 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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@Hairspray:

This answer is perhaps as mistaken an assumption as mine is then. I know you said it in all seriousness but "go level another class" and "Well I'm leveling all of this." is perhaps the genesis of all facetious answers ever given in XI or XIV. It is the alpha facetious answer to the subject of being bored in this franchise. It is not now nor has it ever been a real answer. It's as much a non-answer as "go get all your luminous tools." Which, as an aside, makes needlepoint work look as over-the-top exciting as fireworks off the back of a mechanical laser shooting robot shark surrounded by disco balls. Never doing that again after 1.0.




Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:37am by Furiousnixon
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#33 Nov 12 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirby wrote:
Llester wrote:
i also sit in the "happy with gated myths" side of the room.

1. I like having to choose which job(s) to focus on (am reminded of the one thing i didn't like about FFXII; the license board, which basically made all characters able to do all things. I totally understand how that's perfect for some people, but it didn't work for me)
The difference in FFXIV being that you can't access all of those abilities at the same time, especially in instances (where it matters).

Llester wrote:
2. If myths had a much higher cap, I'd end up running out of time to obtain as many as I'd want to from week to week. As it is now, it fits quite well into my schedule.
That is a silly reason to have the current mythology cap, you have to admit that.

You aren't in any way obligated to cap out every week.


lol what is this post.

1. yes, there's a clear difference between XIV and XII. I said it "reminds me of", not "it's the same as" But thanks for pointing out an obvious difference i guess?

2. Who said it was a reason to have the cap? It's why I don't mind it the way it was designed. Are you unfamiliar with how cause and effect works? Baffling. Of course you aren't obligated, derpy. Are you completely unfamiliar with the concept of wanting to cap them anyway? Am i being trolled here or are you seriously trying to criticize my opinion of why I'm okay with the way the cap is now?


Idk what exactly you thought that you were responding to here, but it pretty clearly wasn't anything I wrote. just...weird.






Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:48am by Llester
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#34 Nov 12 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hairspray wrote:
I think you misunderstand the counter-argument. Anyone who is bored is probably a game-hopper... they go after the latest and greatest game, rush to beat the content, then get bored and move on to the next one... this will always happen, it's been a part of every MMO I've played in the past dozen or so years anyway.


Uh, no.

As a person that usually enjoys most aspects of an MMO I'm drawn the most towards endgame activities. And I'm bored to tears because there's very little to actually do. Despite what you think, not everyone who's bored is a game hopper. I personally want to stick around FFXIV for a long time provided they can step up the production of endgame events.

Not everyone enjoys crafting (I do, but in moderation) or leveling jobs forever (my roommate's already finished with all 50 DoW/DoM jobs while I only have 2 at 50). We need something else to do and frankly 2.1 can't get here quickly enough because I'm having to turn to another game to find something else to fill the time between Coil runs.
#35 Nov 12 2013 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Viertel wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I think you misunderstand the counter-argument. Anyone who is bored is probably a game-hopper... they go after the latest and greatest game, rush to beat the content, then get bored and move on to the next one... this will always happen, it's been a part of every MMO I've played in the past dozen or so years anyway.


Uh, no.

As a person that usually enjoys most aspects of an MMO I'm drawn the most towards endgame activities. And I'm bored to tears because there's very little to actually do. Despite what you think, not everyone who's bored is a game hopper. I personally want to stick around FFXIV for a long time provided they can step up the production of endgame events.

Not everyone enjoys crafting (I do, but in moderation) or leveling jobs forever (my roommate's already finished with all 50 DoW/DoM jobs while I only have 2 at 50). We need something else to do and frankly 2.1 can't get here quickly enough because I'm having to turn to another game to find something else to fill the time between Coil runs.


I wish I had that kind of time. I sneak in an hour or two before and after work, and whatever I can on the weekends. Just got my 1st 50 on Saturday.... Carpenter lol

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#36 Nov 12 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
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Furiousnixon wrote:
@Hairspray:

This answer is perhaps as mistaken an assumption as mine is then. I know you said it in all seriousness but "go level another class" and "Well I'm leveling all of this." is perhaps the genesis of all facetious answers ever given in XI or XIV. It is the alpha facetious answer to the subject of being bored in this franchise. It is not now nor has it ever been a real answer. It's as much a non-answer as "go get all your luminous tools." Which, as an aside, makes needlepoint work look as over-the-top exciting as fireworks off the back of a mechanical laser shooting robot shark surrounded by disco balls. Never doing that again after 1.0.




Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:37am by Furiousnixon


I think I understand what you're saying, although you are peppering it with some very colorful analogies, but the gist is that the people who get bored are actually in danger of quitting, and those who are not bored are not going anywhere, so why not cater to the bored people.

But the counter-counter-argument is that those bored people were going to quit anyways as soon as EQ Next comes out, or whatever other flavor of the month MMO comes out next.

ARR is built well in my opinion to hold onto the core which are people who want a game that will not get old because there is plenty to do besides grind.

If I misunderstood you then I apologize.
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#37 Nov 12 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Default
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Viertel wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I think you misunderstand the counter-argument. Anyone who is bored is probably a game-hopper... they go after the latest and greatest game, rush to beat the content, then get bored and move on to the next one... this will always happen, it's been a part of every MMO I've played in the past dozen or so years anyway.


Uh, no.

As a person that usually enjoys most aspects of an MMO I'm drawn the most towards endgame activities. And I'm bored to tears because there's very little to actually do. Despite what you think, not everyone who's bored is a game hopper. I personally want to stick around FFXIV for a long time provided they can step up the production of endgame events.

Not everyone enjoys crafting (I do, but in moderation) or leveling jobs forever (my roommate's already finished with all 50 DoW/DoM jobs while I only have 2 at 50). We need something else to do and frankly 2.1 can't get here quickly enough because I'm having to turn to another game to find something else to fill the time between Coil runs.


Well 2.1 will be out within a month, which is ~3 months after launch. That's about average for MMO's recently... DCUO had quarterly DLC's with minor adjustments in-between... we've got pretty much the same deal only we don't have to buy 2.1, it's included in our subscription.

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#38 Nov 12 2013 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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I think they've made a mistake in pushing back the release of the first major patch to 'later December'. Which pushes it 4 months from release. I think if we were sat here looking forward to 2.1 at the end of November most people would be fine.

I haven't beaten Coil (although I have access) and have friends who are slowly getting through Titan but we're unlikely to get a strong group together for another couple of weeks. What we're seeing though is people not logging on because of the content which is already there... so they're enjoying levelling and playing the story but are not looking forward to spamming the same dungeons and fights over and over again.

At the other extreme we have players who are stuck on Titan or who have completed it weeks ago but aren't that excited about Coil and they're logging in less and less. I like crafting and gathering but what if you're not into that?

Whatever your feelings on ESO... with other MMOs always around the corner I think SE needed to push 2.1 a little harder OR release one or two completely separate things to do before 'later December'. I think they'll get away with it this time, especially if they keep a couple of extra things up their sleeve but I think 3 months (rather than 4) is a better update schedule.

Quote:
Well 2.1 will be out within a month, which is ~3 months after launch.


Nope it's 18-20 weeks after release, approximately 4 months.

All that being said, I like the game and think it has potential. In a couple of years it'll probably be overloaded with content.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:59am by eldelphia
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#39 Nov 12 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Do you think it may have anything to do with caution?

Is it possible they were sitting on some of this stuff just in case this bombed too? Now that they've got a hit on their hands, hopefully the schedule ramps up. While I don't really care because I'm still not 50, I guess more = better...
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#40 Nov 12 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Do you think it may have anything to do with caution?

Is it possible they were sitting on some of this stuff just in case this bombed too? Now that they've got a hit on their hands, hopefully the schedule ramps up. While I don't really care because I'm still not 50, I guess more = better...


I'd say this is probably it... Yoshi seems to be very aware of the community and what we want.. I'm sure he's feeling the pressure to release the content, but at the same time they need to balance quickly releasing content with hitting a home-run on the content, so it's probably going to need a few extra weeks just to be sure.
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#41 Nov 12 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's not just hitting a home run on it. It's also making sure that it works. No point in releasing a new patch only to discover it breaks PS3 and they have to halt the game for a week. Testing takes time.

Surprised no one has mentioned that they are, in fact, releasing the Lightning Returns event stuff a month ahead of the patch. Probably because the content is ready and doesn't affect any of the other aspects of the game, just like everyone said in this thread.

What you guys are describing is known as iterative development, and it's the best practice for modern programming and development. It just means releasing small amounts of content as it's ready, rather than waiting for one big patch push every few months. There are pros and cons to it - not just from a development standpoint, but also from a customer standpoint. If you release bite size content every month, people will burn through it in a week and go right back to complaining about having nothing to do.
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#42 Nov 12 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.


I disagree, IMHO ARR is a new game altogether... and is not a 3 year old game.


Oh lord you just stepped in a pile of poo. Get ready to hear the slew of McFilth reasons as to why this game is 3 years old.

Hairspray wrote:
As such, 2 months without a significant update is not the end of the world. Anyone who is bored at this point has nobody to blame but themselves for rushing to end-game and not taking part in all of the activities along the way.


So it's our fault for rushing to the content that was there waiting for us on the first day? lol

I'll probably go level crafting after this. Do you think that'll entertain me for the next month and two weeks? I'm going to guess probably not. What else do you think there is to do?

Saying that I'm a game hopper is incredibly amusing, though. I guess I didn't spend enough time in 11, WoW, L4D/2, Borderlands, etc. I think I spent, out of about 7 years of playing 11, THREE total years of /played last time I remember. WoW was off and on for 5 years where I probably put in 2 years total. My Steam profile clocks my L4D and L4D2 playtimes at like 300 hours and 521 hours respectively.

I'm not saying that there aren't people who do hop games but it's hard not to take your post personally. I haven't missed any of this invisible content you speak of: it simply isn't there. However, I'm honestly curious. Please enlighten me as to what I've missed so that I may go do it.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 12:14pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#43 Nov 12 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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So it's our fault for rushing to the content that was there waiting for us on the first day? lol


"Fault" is a loaded word... but yes, it was your choice. You can't realistically expect SE to keep people who make that choice happy... otherwise they'd have to produce content at a pace that would leave the company bankrupt.

Quote:
I think they've made a mistake in pushing back the release of the first major patch to 'later December'.


Agree with Catwho. There is zero logic in deploying a patch that isn't ready. If SE needs until December to get the patch ready, then December is when they should release it.

Kudos to SE though for releasing the Lightning content this week! This will be fun, and should provide the average gamer with a couple weeks of things to do.
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#44 Nov 12 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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So it's our fault for rushing to the content that was there waiting for us on the first day? lol


"Fault" is a loaded word... but yes, it was your choice. You can't realistically expect SE to keep people who make that choice happy... otherwise they'd have to produce content at a pace that would leave the company bankrupt.


I can realistically expect them to release a patch in a timely fashion: 3 months after the initial release.

The point is that this was delayed another month and many people are logging in less and less. It's not healthy for the community.

As I've shown, I'm not bound to up and leave for another game. What I fear is that others will, though. This does directly influence how I approach the game. If my OT and healer are not logging in at all during the week and pop on for coil every Monday (takes all of 2 hours maybe), we can't practice fights and therefore can't progress. If we can't even garner interest in something that we still haven't overcome, I can only imagine how other players are feeling right now who are not interested in endgame at all or are bashing their heads against a wall on a particular coil encounter/primal fight.

Basically, what is there to do outside of coil for those of us interested? You can level a craft to make gear for...coil. It also helps stabilize yourself for the future which is probably why I will take it up next. You can level other DoW/DoM jobs, gear them up with DL, and not use them because your main job is more useful...in coil.

I can't even gear my SCH or PLD up to fill the gap that the OT and secondary healer have left because of the mythology cap.

They've created quite an interesting problem. This one month delay is actually long enough to cause people to unsub/leave for a month and none of us can really fill the gaps because of a current in-game mechanic. So either add a quick fix to mythology so we can keep running on our hamster wheels or patch in even a little content before the actual big patch at the end of December.

The below was written quite well and summarizes my feelings:

Furiousnixon wrote:
On an anecdotal note, I've seen this wearing of patience myself. People just disappear and don't log in anymore. Or you see them for 1-2 hours a week for Coil and then they vanish. That's bad for community when the heard of regulars grows thin. Those who still log in have fewer, if any, "friends" to talk to, and eventually they also get bored and log in less. It not only affects hard core end game players it also affects the medium/soft core players that are in those FCs because it acts as a domino effect, first the raiders stop logging in, then the rest slowly drift out to join them in other games or just simply not playing.

Nothing happens over night and this won't kill the game, but slow major patches don't seem necessary anymore except where it concerns a very large addition to the core of the game, like housing. Other things, as mentioned above, like extreme primals, can be dropped in as you go to keep people patient.

This is the key takeaway for me anyhow seeing the shifting culture of MMORPG communities. People don't seem to be as patient as they once were and not playing to that, by stringing people along with minor content between major content is a mistake.


To add in some more anecdotal information: I'm told people in the BG shell that downed Twin have quit, the 'most prestigious' FC on Midgard has fallen apart because even their leaders have no interest in logging in, I currently have 4 members out of the 8 in my coil group who log in for more than 2 hours a week, two members in group 2 and 3 who have quit because 'there isn't anything to do', and there is almost a stagnant recruitment environment in the FC I'm apart of as well as several other endgame FCs I'm in contact with on my server.

I love this game too and will defend it to great lengths but I also won't ignore what's right in front of my face.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 12:23pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#45 Nov 12 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The point is that this was delayed another month and many people are logging in less and less. It's not healthy for the community.


Totally agree with this, as well as the 3-month expectation.

Just saying that if launch delays, server problems or other issues (unforeseen content issues) caused the patch to not really be ready until late December, then they shouldn't release the patch until it's ready.

Gamers have much less patience nowadays (same goes for everyone, really), but customers get even more angered by being given unfinished or broken products. That's the whole reason why Version 1 was scrapped and ARR was created.

Between being late and releasing unfinished content, I hope SE chooses to be late every time.
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#46 Nov 12 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Between being late and releasing unfinished content, I hope SE chooses to be late every time.


In general I agree with that sentiment. The problem right now is that there isn't enough going on to distract people from the fact that nothing new is happening. That isn't entirely SE's fault since this is, for all intents and purposes, a new game, but there it is anyway.

The mythology cap probably should be job-specific. Especially when you consider that in any other game like this, the progression player can level and gear alts to help with their progression (this is a common practice). In this game you're really supposed to do that on one character, leveling other jobs...but the mythology tomestone cap wrecks that concept because you can only realistically gear one job at a time. This creates an environment where players who want to focus progression have to narrow their view to their main job, because trying to gear other jobs is impossible; and that creates a perception of there not being very much to do.

I think this problem gets better over time as content is released, but right now it just feels awful.

I also don't buy the "game hopper" theory. If you can hook a player, you'll keep them. And I've said this before but I'll say it again: MMOs are not marriage.. you're allowed to play other games at the same time. In fact it's probably a good idea right now for you to be seeing other games if XIV is burning you out waiting for new stuff to do.
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#47 Nov 12 2013 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah I don't really buy into the "game hopper" theory either. Personally, I think most MMO players are searching for long-term "homes" that can compete with their first MMOs, whether that be FFXI, WoW or whatever.

That said, I also think there's plenty to do in game, even if you can only realistically gear up one character for endgame purposes. The thing is, I'm at a point in my life where I probably have greater perspective than someone who is 20 years old and eager to grind away. I'm ok with just focusing on one job for endgame right now... I can go level other jobs and get them ready for when the gearing requirements are made a bit easier. I don't mind waiting on those jobs... in the meantime, I can level them, maybe use those jobs to run dungeons with friends. Heck, even going through AK or WP as a different job can help make the grind more fun.

Anyway, sucks that the update was set back, but it is what it is. I'm perfectly happy with SE taking the time to get it right. I don't see any reason in worry about how other people choose to deal with this.
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#48 Nov 12 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hairspray wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
@Hairspray:

This answer is perhaps as mistaken an assumption as mine is then. I know you said it in all seriousness but "go level another class" and "Well I'm leveling all of this." is perhaps the genesis of all facetious answers ever given in XI or XIV. It is the alpha facetious answer to the subject of being bored in this franchise. It is not now nor has it ever been a real answer. It's as much a non-answer as "go get all your luminous tools." Which, as an aside, makes needlepoint work look as over-the-top exciting as fireworks off the back of a mechanical laser shooting robot shark surrounded by disco balls. Never doing that again after 1.0.




Edited, Nov 12th 2013 10:37am by Furiousnixon


I think I understand what you're saying, although you are peppering it with some very colorful analogies, but the gist is that the people who get bored are actually in danger of quitting, and those who are not bored are not going anywhere, so why not cater to the bored people.

But the counter-counter-argument is that those bored people were going to quit anyways as soon as EQ Next comes out, or whatever other flavor of the month MMO comes out next.

ARR is built well in my opinion to hold onto the core which are people who want a game that will not get old because there is plenty to do besides grind.

If I misunderstood you then I apologize.


Ah interesting. Here's where I differ. I would suggest that the core of the game is comprised of a variety of players. Some of those are more hardcore than others. Around that core is a fringe of game-hoppers and casuals who don't knock everything out but don't stick around either aside from playing one thing to level 20 and declaring the game an unmitigated failure (and posting about it on the official forums). Nothing should cater to the fringes who don't have staying power. But the absence of content drives out that part of the core that wanted to stick around but for the lack of end game material for them to work with. I wouldn't tar all the bored people with the game-hopper brand.

Also I don't think it's a question of catering necessarily in the sense of giving to one and taking from the other that I think it's being used in here. If you add more content for the hardcore, and frankly they're treading water now, I'm more referring to the much larger medium core populace, you are adding to the game. Nothing is being taken away from those who spend all their time fishing. I don't say that mockingly either it literally takes nothing away from someone who was going to sit around in town spamming "Builder of the realm, LFW" all day anyhow, or take months slowly leveling a few things. No matter what those people do, they're never going to be where the hardcore/medium core crowd is. The beauty of it is, the game can only expand and there seems to be a good portion of people in that softcore grouping at any given time who also won't ever be at the front of the pack to do things with. To add and add frequently only enriches the volume of content available for all giving the "eventually" crowd more to do "eventually" and the "now" crowd more to do "now" keeping them here, and not in some pit of despair, like EQ Next for instance.
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#49 Nov 12 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
The point is that this was delayed another month and many people are logging in less and less. It's not healthy for the community.


Totally agree with this, as well as the 3-month expectation.

Just saying that if launch delays, server problems or other issues (unforeseen content issues) caused the patch to not really be ready until late December, then they shouldn't release the patch until it's ready.

Gamers have much less patience nowadays (same goes for everyone, really), but customers get even more angered by being given unfinished or broken products. That's the whole reason why Version 1 was scrapped and ARR was created.

Between being late and releasing unfinished content, I hope SE chooses to be late every time.


You know...I completely agree and am trying to tread this line as carefully as I can.

My posts may give the impression that I am some entitled person demanding more content that I can quickly blow on through (and then go back to demanding more content) but that isn't what I am going for.

What I'm really concerned about is people leaving. I have loads of stories about people I've talked to (not in my FC) over the past week who have told me they're growing bored and only log in to chat. I'd like to share them all but don't want to bore you. I'll share one, though, because it's story time with Hitome and it's an example of a person who is on the opposite side of the game as me.

I haven't seen my friend who lives in DC in over a week. He has all crafts at level 50 and I finally persuaded him to get one of his DoW/DoM jobs to 50. He got it there, we ran him through his relic, he obtained it, and then hasn't been seen since. He is the kind of guy who has no interest in endgame content: content to log in just to sit in town and craft.

I won't knock it because everyone enjoys one aspect of this game more than others I'm sure. But then what will he do next? Sure, maybe RL got busy but he was online almost everyday up to last week chatting with his FC and me at the very least if not crafting up a storm. He sure as **** was pretty determined to get all those crafts to 50 within 3ish months of release. He was quite proud of it, actually, as he showed me all his relic crafting equipment. Even managed to craft me a ring which has helped me immensely.

See, I'm on the opposite end. I love leveling so much when it comes to DoM/DoW but if I have to grind any more FATEs or DL gear just so that the job can sit at 50 and the gear can collect dust while I'm constantly asked to go BLM, I'll cry.

I understand that SE wants to play it safe and make sure their first content patch is a huge success so that people keep resubbing. I just don't want to lose my friends and FC mates over something that could have been prevented by a simple tweak to the current gating mechanic and possibly a little incentive for people uninterested in DoW/DoM jobs.

Edit:

Thayos wrote:
Yeah I don't really buy into the "game hopper" theory either. Personally, I think most MMO players are searching for long-term "homes" that can compete with their first MMOs, whether that be FFXI, WoW or whatever.


Yes! Precisely. :) I haven't had this much fun in a MMO since FFXI and I just want to see it succeed. Yeah, people will quit regardless of how fast SE releases content but it just sucks losing friends who you want to have experiences with like you did in 11.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 1:33pm by HitomeOfBismarck
#50 Nov 12 2013 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think people are forgetting that ARR has been an unexpected surprise for SE, and it has taken some adjustments and they're playing "catch-up." 1.0 was a terrible failure and I think ARR re-release was more about saving face than anything else. They didn't build the server infrastructure or have the content fleshed out because they thought it would be played primarily by Japanese and Final Fantasy fanboys and passed over by everyone else. You don't spend millions of dollars or hire staff when you aren't sure you'll get your investment back.

I personally think that a 3 month update schedule is perfect, because I can be semi-casual and still get full DL and a relic and have time to enjoy it. If they're constantly, like every month, moving that carrot then it gets terribly frustrating for non-hardcores to keep up.

And I gotta smile every time someone complains about the myth cap. Obviously has NO clue about psychology, skinner boxes, pavlovian conditioning, addictive elements that are purposely put into games by the developers. You honestly think they're going to work to get you addicted then allow you max out everything and quit? If myth was uncapped, we'd have people with all 50s in full AF2 and +1 weapons by now (probably back in September actually). By capping it, you have to come back every week and this extends your subscription.

The update schedule is likely also planned based on stuff like this too. Release, you play for 1.5 months (pay for 2), start to get bored, think about quitting but...update is next month, so keep subscribing. Update, you play for 1 month, start to get bored but you can't unsub - gotta cap myth, now its next update again. Cycle repeats.
#51 Nov 12 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I'm not saying that there aren't people who do hop games but it's hard not to take your post personally. I haven't missed any of this invisible content you speak of: it simply isn't there. However, I'm honestly curious. Please enlighten me as to what I've missed so that I may go do it.


Don't take what I'm saying personally. I was not directing it at you at all, nor at anyone in particular.

The fact that I made generalizations about the players who rushed to end-game and are bored being game-hoppers was unfair to people like yourself who are not game-hoppers, I can admit that... and since it doesn't apply to you then don't take it as being about you.

Also, there is no invisible content, it's all right there waiting for you. Go back and level other jobs that interest you.

I notice that you have barely scratched the surface on crafting... it's a whole game unto itself, and is actually rather addicting and super fun... try getting all of the level 15 cross-class abilities and then run one of the crafts that interests you the most to 50 using levequests... you'll find that it's way cooler then you may have believed to craft in this game... by far the most exciting crafting system I have used anyways.

If crafting doesn't interest you in this game, then it probably never will interest you in any game, that's how good it is... but if it does not, then perhaps take the rest of the battle jobs to 50. Either way, until you've beaten every instance and every boss in the game, and gotten every job to max level and geared them for end-game, and done every craft to 50 and geared them appropriately, then you still have things you can do while you wait on the 2.1 release.
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