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The long waits for updatesFollow

#52 Nov 12 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Thayos wrote:
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The point is that this was delayed another month and many people are logging in less and less. It's not healthy for the community.


Totally agree with this, as well as the 3-month expectation.

Just saying that if launch delays, server problems or other issues (unforeseen content issues) caused the patch to not really be ready until late December, then they shouldn't release the patch until it's ready.

Gamers have much less patience nowadays (same goes for everyone, really), but customers get even more angered by being given unfinished or broken products. That's the whole reason why Version 1 was scrapped and ARR was created.

Between being late and releasing unfinished content, I hope SE chooses to be late every time.


You know...I completely agree and am trying to tread this line as carefully as I can.

My posts may give the impression that I am some entitled person demanding more content that I can quickly blow on through (and then go back to demanding more content) but that isn't what I am going for.

What I'm really concerned about is people leaving. I have loads of stories about people I've talked to (not in my FC) over the past week who have told me they're growing bored and only log in to chat. I'd like to share them all but don't want to bore you. I'll share one, though, because it's story time with Hitome and it's an example of a person who is on the opposite side of the game as me.

I haven't seen my friend who lives in DC in over a week. He has all crafts at level 50 and I finally persuaded him to get one of his DoW/DoM jobs to 50. He got it there, we ran him through his relic, he obtained it, and then hasn't been seen since. He is the kind of guy who has no interest in endgame content: content to log in just to sit in town and craft.

I won't knock it because everyone enjoys one aspect of this game more than others I'm sure. But then what will he do next? Sure, maybe RL got busy but he was online almost everyday up to last week chatting with his FC and me at the very least if not crafting up a storm. He sure as **** was pretty determined to get all those crafts to 50 within 3ish months of release. He was quite proud of it, actually, as he showed me all his relic crafting equipment and when he went to craft (and sign) the ring I wear.

See I'm on the opposite end. I love leveling so much when it comes to DoM/DoW but if I have to grind any more FATEs or DL gear just so that the job can sit at 50 and the gear can collect dust while I'm constantly asked to go BLM, I'll cry.

I understand that SE wants to play it safe and make sure their first content patch is a huge success so that people keep resubbing. I just don't want to lose my friends and FC mates over something that could have been prevented by a simple tweak to the current gating mechanic.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 1:26pm by HitomeOfBismarck


Good things come to those who wait. :)

I've been patiently building my "base". I have a 45WHM (so i can access DoH/DoL leves lol), 26 THM (for swifties), 50 CRP, and every other DoH/DoL 40-45. No, I'm not beating my head against myth caps, or w/e that's all about. I could really care less right now. But eventually, I'll have everything ready to go. I guess I'm playing the "long" game :)
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#53 Nov 12 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fishing is ridiculously addictive too. Botany and mining are not as exciting, but they're a little bit fun in their own ways.
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#54 Nov 12 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Fishing is ridiculously addictive too. Botany and mining are not as exciting, but they're a little bit fun in their own ways.


I'll agree about mining and botany, but very lucrative!
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#55 Nov 12 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Loris wrote:
And I gotta smile every time someone complains about the myth cap. Obviously has NO clue about psychology, skinner boxes, pavlovian conditioning, addictive elements that are purposely put into games by the developers. You honestly think they're going to work to get you addicted then allow you max out everything and quit? If myth was uncapped, we'd have people with all 50s in full AF2 and +1 weapons by now (probably back in September actually). By capping it, you have to come back every week and this extends your subscription.


Continue smiling, because your analogy doesn't work in a game where one character can do everything and it's built around being a "jack of all trades". Secondly, the fact that you think everyone will rush out to get full AF+1 immediately for all jobs is infinitely amusing and shows a severe lack of reality.

Top 1% hardcore != majority of the playerbase.
#56 Nov 12 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Fishing is ridiculously addictive too. Botany and mining are not as exciting, but they're a little bit fun in their own ways.


I'll agree about mining and botany, but very lucrative!


LOL What server are you on? Those two DoLs are literally worthless on my server. I leveled mining to 50 and proceeded to never touch it again on my 50 GSM because the cost of raw HQ mats is somewhere between zip and nadda. The profit margin is so wide that there is literally no reason not to buy stuff, craft it, and dump it right back into the market as a finished good.
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#57 Nov 12 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:


That said, I also think there's plenty to do in game, even if you can only realistically gear up one character for endgame purposes. The thing is, I'm at a point in my life where I probably have greater perspective than someone who is 20 years old and eager to grind away. I'm ok with just focusing on one job for endgame right now... I can go level other jobs and get them ready for when the gearing requirements are made a bit easier. I don't mind waiting on those jobs... in the meantime, I can level them, maybe use those jobs to run dungeons with friends. Heck, even going through AK or WP as a different job can help make the grind more fun.
.


this is exactly where i'm at. well said.
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#58 Nov 12 2013 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, the myth cap is dumb, and generally counterproductive to the all-in-one class system that's ultimately one of the game's strengths. I'm personally not a fan of lockouts and subscribe to the sentiment that if a given individual wants to spam a certain piece of content, let them. The trick is offering sustainability, but at the same time not relying on RNG just to string people out over longer periods of time. Basically, if something's supposed to be rare, put it behind a hard, yet fair mob or other set of challenges. Arguments of it keeping the gap between hardcores and casuals are pretty much moot, as the latter usually just prefer to hole themselves up anyway. People just hitting 50 now are also about 10 weeks behind on potential myth tomes, and there's zero they can do to play catch up on that without SE adjusting AF2 prices or upping the cap. Other aspects of progression fail I basically outlined in my last post.

Otherwise, I don't believe it's a sect of game hoppers mucking things up or even some kind of misguided sense of entitlement. Actually, I hate how that word has been twisted by the MMO community to ultimately come off as a negative, essentially divorcing the concept of rights and assigning it to simple whining. On the same token, this usually leads to certain types saying things like, "If you don't like it, leave!" Which does little to build community. Sometimes they'll even spice that up with a jab toward other games meant for kids or perhaps seen as a commercial/social failure. I won't claim to be entirely immune to this line of thinking at times, but it manifests for me ultimately when I see people advocating the implementation of exclusionary content like XI's (H)NMs or other first come, first serve content that ultimately isn't casual friendly. Regardless of however much lawyering goes on between "we own our copy of the game" or "leasing rights to the service" that goes on within the game sphere, the feedback of customers, the subscribers, is important. If people claim they want XYZ, you give them XYZ. If you got some who want ABC, but can't because you're working on XYZ and money allows you to hire more people to actually make ABC in tandem, then for @#%^'s sake, hire those people and never make public complaints about manpower. SE ain't some small indy studio here and failure to do this hurt XI hard.

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LOL What server are you on? Those two DoLs are literally worthless on my server. I leveled mining to 50 and proceeded to never touch it again on my 50 GSM because the cost of raw HQ mats is somewhere between zip and nadda. The profit margin is so wide that there is literally no reason not to buy stuff, craft it, and dump it right back into the market as a finished good.


Since this popped up while I was typing...

On Diabolos, there have been times where after synthing my 50th wool thread or so in a sitting where I tell myself, "You know, if people sold converted goods at more reasonable costs, I might just buy them instead of spending an hour making my own." Yeah, yeah, supply and demand, profit, mark up, yadda yadda, but I think such broad gaps signify a problem in the system within both crafting and gathering. The latter has the crystal bottleneck, while the former lacks bulk synthesis (or at least a quick synth option that DIDN'T SUCK). Both essentially translate to people wanting money for their time, and I can't blame them for that. Though I wonder if the economy could be healthier if cheaper final products could lead to goods moving more quickly. I find people being able to buy individuals from a stack should also be something SE needs to look into, as too often you may only need 1 or 2 of something, but just see stacks of 99 up. The rest just lies in giving some of this product surplus a place to go that won't be forgotten in a month. Housing may help here for a little bit, but I'm still skeptical of its long term significance as fluff content.

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 4:03pm by Seriha
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#59 Nov 12 2013 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Furiousnixon wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Fishing is ridiculously addictive too. Botany and mining are not as exciting, but they're a little bit fun in their own ways.


I'll agree about mining and botany, but very lucrative!


LOL What server are you on? Those two DoLs are literally worthless on my server. I leveled mining to 50 and proceeded to never touch it again on my 50 GSM because the cost of raw HQ mats is somewhere between zip and nadda. The profit margin is so wide that there is literally no reason not to buy stuff, craft it, and dump it right back into the market as a finished good.


I'm on Ultros, and I go mining for crystals and Gold Ores mainly if I'm broke. I'm a 50 GSM so the gold ores can be made into Rose Gold Nuggets for even more ROI, but the ores by themselves are rather lucrative... ~300 gil for NQ / 550 gil for HQ.

I also grab Darksteel Ores which don't sell for quite as much, but are still around 200g each... and I'm a 50 ARM so I can make Darksteel Nuggets to get more ROI...

Mining other ores can be good too... I think Silver is going for about 80-90 per right now, 120'ish for HQ...

I know there was a short time right after they adjusted gathering experience points when all ores plummeted in price because everyone and their brother was levelling DoL classes and so the price fell... but they have since bounced back up again. Check your server prices again to see if this is happening there too.
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#60 Nov 12 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
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It should be easier to crank out content when you already have the formula.


It's only easier if the other games also give you their source code.

This comment would be far less ironic had it not been true that SE outsourced code to China for 1.0 version Smiley: dubious

Hairspray wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
It's also worth noting that XIV was released over 3 years ago. 3 years after the launch of FFXI(even if you go with the early start JP version), they had already released RotZ and CoP. Granted the full storyline hadn't been implemented yet, but they added how many jobs there? How many zones? BCNM/KSNM? HNM? Despite being over a decade old, FFXI was miles ahead of XIV at this point in it's lifespan.


I disagree, IMHO ARR is a new game altogether... and is not a 3 year old game.


HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Oh lord you just stepped in a pile of poo. Get ready to hear the slew of McFilth reasons as to why this game is 3 years old.


Hairspray, you can call ARR new if you like. It doesn't really bother me, but for the purpose of this discussion(content updates) it's necessary to understand why the age of this game is important. You make a perfect example with this...

Hairspray wrote:
...I made generalizations about the players who rushed to end-game and are bored being game-hoppers...

There are people who fit into this category of people who are bored and hopping back and forth to other games. I think we call them 'legacy' Smiley: nod

Because the game has been around for so long, there are many people who walked into ARR on day 1 with much less to do than new players(myself included). I'm not saying that the game is devoid of content by any means. MMOs don't generally launch with much endgame content to begin with, but XIV had the added pressure of having to adjust what was previously there as well as implementing new content for endgame and revamp the early game for new players. Fair enough. You get some leeway for launch, but if you're going to ask for sub fees based on the premise that your MMO will spew content at me that other game developers can't; you're going to want to back up those claims.

Personally, I had a lot of the progress I wanted to make on my character already out of the way. That was my reality on ARR launch and even going back as far as when subscriptions first started. At re-launch I had 1 job I wanted to play that needed more than 30 levels, and that's just me being completionist and getting all the available sub-class abilities. I also leveled two other classes to 20 for the sake of trying questlines for the other cities.

I realize that there are 1.5 million people playing and only a fraction of those are in my situation. I don't think it's unfair to ask people to realize why I can't consider the game as new. You can't just drop an engine with 180k miles on it into a new body and call it new Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Nov 12th 2013 4:46pm by FilthMcNasty
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#61 Nov 12 2013 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Because the game has been around for so long, there are many people who walked into ARR on day 1 with much less to do than new players(myself included).


Even though pretty much all of us disagree with Filth calling this a three-year-old game (ARR has only been out since August of this year), the gist of what he's saying here is definitely true.

SE made the choice to let people carry over their characters from the old game to the new game. In every other way, ARR is a sequel to 1.0. The carry-over of character data is the one real bridge between games.

As a result, this does mean there are lots of legacy/1.0 players who are more at risk of being bored right now. But, those players being bored doesn't mean SE has failed to provide us with things to do. It just means those bored players don't enjoy the remaining content in front of them. That's fine, too... we all make our own choices.

I'm looking forward to the Lightning content! With two major holidays and vacation time coming up, the first big patch will be here before we know it.
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#62 Nov 12 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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well, new game or old game, it's definitely a unique case, so no wonder it brings with it unique (ish) issues and debates.
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#63 Nov 12 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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I will add my cents, and start off by saying i'm not a hardcore endgame raider or a casual player i fall some where in the middle. i play around 2-3 hours a day 5 -6 days a week. and i will say that i have grown kinda jaded of the game. my main issue of the game is that they make it easy to get to 50 through the story (which i did, and thought was good) and used some fates and quest and other activities to get to 50 on my second job. but im halfway to 50 on my blacksmith and getting really jaded with the games lack of content at 50. WP/AK were fun dungeons but to be forced to run them 100 times (i want to gear my drg and pld in dl) makes them a chore and takes the fun out of them. unless you just want to level every job to 50 there is not much out there to do.

as for the myth cap i always just thought it was a way to gear a job in top tier gear while doing coil (and possibly CT) and not getting the drops or getting out lotted, not as the main way to get ilvl 90 gear.

what i would like to see rather then a patch every 3-4 months just release a steady flow of small things so there is always something new to talk about or explore. in 2.1 we have 2 new dungeons, housing, extreme mode primals, a new primal, and crystal tower. that is 5 new pieces of content for players to enjoy, now if they would have released it in smaller chunks over the last month or two leading into the end of december and going forward i don't believe we would have people not logging in and some players with burnout. plus if give people more confidence in paying a monthly subscription if they see a steady flow on new content.
#64 Nov 12 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

I haven't seen my friend who lives in DC in over a week. He has all crafts at level 50 and I finally persuaded him to get one of his DoW/DoM jobs to 50. He got it there, we ran him through his relic, he obtained it, and then hasn't been seen since. He is the kind of guy who has no interest in endgame content: content to log in just to sit in town and craft.


You gave away too much with the ring comment. Checked him out on lodestone and he had a long way to go still. He was nowhere near crafting endgame. Otherwise all that gear would be slotted, he would be using those levels to make money on 2 star items, and working the buy sell game to make millions. Housing is going to be a big market for people like him, and you will likely see him return after the 2.1 patch. Probably just got burnt out.

Some folks are given a task. Go A to Z. They think when they get to Z they are done, but what is done? Why did you go to Z? Is there an AA, AB, AC after Z you dont know about? There isn't? Make one up! I gear myself as blm with the goal of making it easier on my team in bc, and with the goal of being able to run any given fresh level 50 dps in my FC through titan with ease. What could be more fun on a MMO than realizing that you have obtained level cap and can now use it to make you more awesome?

People get discouraged when they cant gain experience anymore. They play for the xp tick. I consider my lvl 50 and 70 crafted items to be my levels now, and when I convert them I either get another free awesome materia to make my crafting gear better, or I make a good deal of money. That's one major endgame goal as a 50 Crafter. 1. Make stuff to level gear and sell to make money. 2. Convert that gear to make materia which you sell to make money or use to make your setup better. 3. Use that money or your crafting to make or buy new gear to re-level. That way eventually you will have two sets of gear per job. 1. a leveling set of gear for the daily grind and 2. a uber-crafting set of gear you are working on that will eventually help you craft 2 star items.

I lmao at the "builders of the realm" who are "LFW". There is plenty of work to be done, and unless you have every piece of gear available to every craft job, the luminary tool, and all that gear is 5x slotted with craftsmanship CP and Control mats, then you are not "done".

For an example of someone who did not say "done", look at Wint. Guy has the Rod of the Luminary for Fisher. That's dedication right there.

HitomeOfBismarck wrote:

Yes! Precisely. :) I haven't had this much fun in a MMO since FFXI and I just want to see it succeed. Yeah, people will quit regardless of how fast SE releases content but it just sucks losing friends who you want to have experiences with like you did in 11.


Me neither, it is a solid game! The way I see it, the game is popular. SE likes it because it has turned their profit margin around. They will continue to embrace it. New people will show up, especially as it releases on new platforms. Yoshi has a 10 year commitment plan. Those that quit now, well I simply see them as eliminated competition.

When I bought PSU in October of 2006 it had just 10 rank C missions. The best you could do for a month was get to level 20 and fight the stupid dragon over and over for a B rank weapon. Content flowed in that game at a trickle, and a full year behind the Japanese version. I had 15 friends from PSO sign up to play that game and they all quit by December. I was the last left. By contrast, this game and its content is far better. Sega let me down. I can not even complain about SE. I am quite enamored with the content, even still.

If there are too many quitters in your FC at Migard Hitome, you do always have a home with us in Ultros. Smiley: nod

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#65 Nov 12 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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The key thing for me is what content they add in the first year, regardless of whether it's done as big chunks every 3-4 months or smaller chunks monthly.

I've played enough MMOs to know that, at release, there's a danger of running out of content, though, for me, FFXIV presents no such issue at the moment, still got a lot of crafting levels to get, jobs to level and not even started Coil yet.

The first year or so is vital, if they can get content out in that time FFXIV will succeed.
#66 Nov 12 2013 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
I'm starting to think people are simply tired of MMOs. What's the last MMO that held your attention for over a year? It doesn't matter what a company does, people will complain and leave. XIV could of released with 5 more dungeons and people would say it's too many! The grinds the same for all of them etc etc.

I just don't know what people want from an MMO anymore. Exp is too slow, ok here's a faster way. NO, exp is too fast, ok we slowed it down. NO how am I supposed to catch up to end game people now. There's not enough dungeons, ok here's more. WTF SE, I just speed run this one, why bother with others? It's like this for every, single, subject. WoW was an anomaly with inflated asian numbers, people need to see MMOs as niche games and realize the days of keepin 1 mil subs are gone (especially if Korea and China aren't involved).

So is XIV boring, or are MMOs boring?
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#67 Nov 12 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Even though pretty much all of us disagree with Filth calling this a three-year-old game (ARR has only been out since August of this year), the gist of what he's saying here is definitely true.


Thanks for being able to see it from my point of view at least. It's new to some and a sequel to others, but I'm the same old ornery, cantankerous adventurer stuck in a world where the scenery is familiar(in more ways than just looking the same when you turn around) but everyone has a sh*tty memory and there are 8 suns in the sky Smiley: sly

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I'm starting to think people are simply tired of MMOs. What's the last MMO that held your attention for over a year?


I've actually played TERA since it came out. Before that, WoW for almost 6 years and FFXI for the better part of a decade. I think it depends on the player really.

Over time I've realized that I don't want one game to be everything. I enjoy playing several titles which keeps it fresh. I only know about a dozen people who play MMOs, but when I think about all of them; only a few spend any noticeable amount of time playing other games. I think maybe people just burn out. The reason I played XI so long was because I played through a time where there was almost always something to do.

During ToAU it actually reached a point where I had a FFXI planner to keep track of all the events I was participating in. Sunday and Wednesday were Dynamis days. Monday was for merits. Tuesday was an off day, but usually I'd camp NMs I needed or try to craft some gil to sustain the rest of the week. Wednesday was also an off day, but happened to be one of the days the other LS was running Dynamis. Thursday and Friday we farmed triggers in Sky and did ZNM/KSNM/BCNM stuff where it would fit. Saturday was trigger pop day and the cycle continued.

In between all of that we still managed to squeeze in Assault runs, Salvage, Einherjar and various other random things like Garrison missions. There was too much to do.


Edited, Nov 12th 2013 6:52pm by FilthMcNasty
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#68 Nov 12 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
You gave away too much with the ring comment. Checked him out on lodestone and he had a long way to go still. He was nowhere near crafting endgame. Otherwise all that gear would be slotted, he would be using those levels to make money on 2 star items, and working the buy sell game to make millions. Housing is going to be a big market for people like him, and you will likely see him return after the 2.1 patch. Probably just got burnt out.


Actually, he said he was less interested in housing because it wouldn't be personal. :( I think he was quite disappointed when he found out it was FC-only. I am not sure why his Lodestone is showing his gear like that...when I looked at it, he had it all melded and such.

So I unlocked weaver, leveled it to 6, and now am killing Titan.

I don't think crafting will ever be my thing. Never did it in 11 or WoW, probably won't now.
#69 Nov 12 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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During ToAU it actually reached a point where I had a FFXI planner to keep track of all the events I was participating in. Sunday and Wednesday were Dynamis days. Monday was for merits. Tuesday was an off day, but usually I'd camp NMs I needed or try to craft some gil to sustain the rest of the week. Wednesday was also an off day, but happened to be one of the days the other LS was running Dynamis. Thursday and Friday we farmed triggers in Sky and did ZNM/KSNM/BCNM stuff where it would fit. Saturday was trigger pop day and the cycle continued.


In time, FFXIV will have a similar lineup of things to do. Right now, we pretty much have primals and coil (I still haven't done coil, just recently beat Titan HM). We're about to have primals (and more of them), coil, PvP, Crystal Tower and hard-mode dungeons.... that's effectively doubling the scope of endgame, which is pretty significant for just four months post release, imo.

I'm equally excited about the dungeon exp buffs and the Daily quests for random dungeons. Those changes will really improve the overall leveling experience.
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#70 Nov 12 2013 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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So is XIV boring, or are MMOs boring?

I pin it more on a fear of deviation. When I see people grumble about how things are done too fast like leveling or getting gear, it's not uncommon for them to play the nostalgia card with FFXI and say how what they did in a week here would've took them months there. Some are still under the hopeless illusion that time sinks are difficulty and that MMOs are only worth playing if you measure in the time metric of years. This segues a bit back into my last post on the perversion of instant gratification as a concept, and ultimately invites contradictions when compared to other forms of entertainment. Do we watch a movie only so we can enjoy it 3 months later? Not especially. If it's good, yes, you'll still talk about it later on down the line, but the ultimate concept of paying now, being bored, and maybe having fun later seems... destructive to a game's health.

Which is why you can't top-load things into the misnomer that is endgame and the raid scene just to call it a day. This is what so many other MMOs do and have done, hence the lack of deviation on the progression metric. You even suggest that a crafter could make raid quality gear without stepping into a raid and the fur flies. Let someone solo quest for similar and it's welfare, EZ Mode, or whatever other flavor of insult you could pull out pops up. People get bored because they aren't really given much choice in how to grow their characters, as the basics of Kill X, Fetch Y, Go To Z, Defend/Escort Q, and any combination of those aren't new concepts, nor can they be strayed from. DPS is usually king, with survivability only being a concern for tanks, and less so if healing is easy in a given game. Plot understandably only goes so far, as we could read/watch whatever story is produced in a mere fraction of the time it'd take to make.

What can a player do, though? All unsubbing really does is show a lack of confidence with no real feedback to a dev on why you're quitting. You could maybe be like me and verbalize these things from time to time, meet opposition from my player peers, and ultimately feel like nothing comes of it because upsetting the vocal minority risks bad PR. I've also wanted to see a game really embrace user generated content without being some arduous task you'd need to know a programming language for just to pull off (hence an intuitive building engine). The further we can get away from ego and prestige, which is usually the only thing that tries to shoot down an idea, the more potential variety a player can encounter even if the building blocks are the same ol' things.

Then again, perhaps I'm already off on the belief that just because a game is online, you don't have to be doing everything with others.
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#71 Nov 13 2013 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
You gave away too much with the ring comment. Checked him out on lodestone and he had a long way to go still. He was nowhere near crafting endgame. Otherwise all that gear would be slotted, he would be using those levels to make money on 2 star items, and working the buy sell game to make millions. Housing is going to be a big market for people like him, and you will likely see him return after the 2.1 patch. Probably just got burnt out.


Actually, he said he was less interested in housing because it wouldn't be personal. :( I think he was quite disappointed when he found out it was FC-only. I am not sure why his Lodestone is showing his gear like that...when I looked at it, he had it all melded and such.

So I unlocked weaver, leveled it to 6, and now am killing Titan.

I don't think crafting will ever be my thing. Never did it in 11 or WoW, probably won't now.


Yeah the lack of personal housing is a dissapointment. I'm kinda bummed that I dont get to design FC logos or put walls where I want them, but hopefully we get some personal housing at some point. They gave us a room in FFXI, at least we could put some more stuff in our inn room to make it personal.


Edited, Nov 13th 2013 8:59am by Valkayree
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#72 Nov 13 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
In time, FFXIV will have a similar lineup of things to do. Right now, we pretty much have primals and coil (I still haven't done coil, just recently beat Titan HM). We're about to have primals (and more of them), coil, PvP, Crystal Tower and hard-mode dungeons.... that's effectively doubling the scope of endgame, which is pretty significant for just four months post release, imo.

I'm equally excited about the dungeon exp buffs and the Daily quests for random dungeons. Those changes will really improve the overall leveling experience.


Just a few notations:

1) Extreme Primals will be nice for something else to do, but it's hardly new content.

2) We're not getting any coil extensions in 2.1; that's been confirmed so you can't count that as something else.

3) Crystal Tower will, again, be nice in terms of something to do. However, from someone that's getting close to having mostly iLVL 90 gear CT won't be much use for me on the main job. It'll be great for my secondary (Bard atm), and hopefully being a DF dungeon can be run multiple times a week, but as of right now it's like giving me HM Ifrit when I've already geared up on HM Titan.

We aren't really 'doubling the scope' but more of creating a gap between Darklight and Coil/AF+1 gear. Sure, the new dungeon, HM version of a storyline fight, and two new HM versions of previous dungeons is great and all but the core group that's either finished with coil or close to finishing won't really have anything to entice them to keep playing until Coil is expanded in terms of power growth. Sure, for me as I intend to level more jobs it'll be great for gearing up those, but not everyone likes all the jobs.

If you're an endgame only kinda of person, and find that you only really like your one job, this patch surprisingly doesn't have anything for you in terms of progression. SE not releasing coil extensions (since it's supposedly 100 turns total) each patch is going to bite them in the *** if each patch takes 3-4 months.

EDIT: The extreme mode primals could, possibly, all drop i90 gear but as this isn't FFXI and we don't gear swap it becomes sidegrades/alternatives. That's an option, but they've gone on record stating that coil would have the highest possible gear so I'm not sure if they will go that route. i80/85 maybe.


Edited, Nov 13th 2013 12:31pm by Viertel
#73 Nov 13 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
1) Extreme Primals will be nice for something else to do, but it's hardly new content.

2) We're not getting any coil extensions in 2.1; that's been confirmed so you can't count that as something else.

3) Crystal Tower will, again, be nice in terms of something to do. However, from someone that's getting close to having mostly iLVL 90 gear CT won't be much use for me on the main job. It'll be great for my secondary (Bard atm), and hopefully being a DF dungeon can be run multiple times a week, but as of right now it's like giving me HM Ifrit when I've already geared up on HM Titan.

We aren't really 'doubling the scope' but more of creating a gap between Darklight and Coil/AF+1 gear.


I'm not saying that coil will be new... I'm saying that it will still be there along with the new stuff, thus doubling the scope of endgame.

You're correct in that people who are pushing turn 4 of coil won't find anything more powerful than what they're wearing... but for the majority of players, this update will really broaden what's playable at endgame. The Crystal Tower content will allow FCs to group up and queue up in the DF with groups from other FCs. The new primals and dungeons will make for cool events, and they could make gearing up other jobs more enticing, also.

I think SE is being smart by not continually moving out the ceiling of gear progression... and they've made this approach clear all along. The idea is to set a ceiling, and give people time to get there... THEN raise the ceiling, and give people time to get there... while making older content easier along the way, so a lack of party availability doesn't block anyone from catching up.

Also, there's already a gap between DL and coil gear. Perhaps gear from Crystal Tower will be somewhere in between DL and coil or DL and relic. If so, then **** yes, this would create a great endgame alternative for a large number of players, while actually closing the gap between DL and coil.

We'll just have to see what happens!
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#74 Nov 13 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
Even if you have one char geared in ilvl90, doubtful you'll have 2-3 jobs with it. So you can run some CT to gear secondary jobs.
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#75 Nov 13 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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#76 Nov 13 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
I'm starting to think people are simply tired of MMOs. What's the last MMO that held your attention for over a year? It doesn't matter what a company does, people will complain and leave. XIV could of released with 5 more dungeons and people would say it's too many! The grinds the same for all of them etc etc.

I just don't know what people want from an MMO anymore. Exp is too slow, ok here's a faster way. NO, exp is too fast, ok we slowed it down. NO how am I supposed to catch up to end game people now. There's not enough dungeons, ok here's more. WTF SE, I just speed run this one, why bother with others? It's like this for every, single, subject. WoW was an anomaly with inflated asian numbers, people need to see MMOs as niche games and realize the days of keepin 1 mil subs are gone (especially if Korea and China aren't involved).

So is XIV boring, or are MMOs boring?


I don't think so. I think facts are facts. ARR launched then went several months with no updates, not even class balancing or anything. People get bored because other games update much more quickly than that (even F2P games). And most of the content coming in 2.1 (4 months after launch) was promised for launch. It's really very fair to say that this is all moving at a sluggish pace. It's not the fault of the game genre that it's moving so sluggishly.
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#77 Nov 13 2013 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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It's really very fair to say that this is all moving at a sluggish pace. It's not the fault of the game genre that it's moving so sluggishly.


It's also not the players' fault for noticing

Even if XIV hasn't technically been slow about its updating, it's FELT slow. What updates have gone out have been bug fixes, and those have been slow too. Remember that Turn 5 bug? That was around for quite a while.

I'm not saying SE is necessarily doing something wrong here, but the perception of the players is that SE is dragging their feet.
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#78 Nov 13 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Good
At this point, with it's track record, I'd rather they take time to release proper content then to rush it out and have half of it broken. They've also been doing several server maintenance which I think has delayed some of the content development. I'm sure SE could release smaller instances more often, but then people would blow through them in a week or two and complain that it's not enough.

****, they announced King Moogle and people are already complaining gear isn't on par with other things so they won't bother. Like I said, it doesn't matter what they do anymore, how fast, how slow they release something, the length, difficulty, someone will complain. I've played several other MMO's, and the ones that update frequently are lackluster at best, and the ones that take their time, well it's never fast enough.

Class balancing is coming, but it's not something you just do over night. There has to be actual thought involved, without trying to break certain aspect of each job too much. Some of it might even involved re-hauling content cause of the way bosses act right now, they do next to nothing to ranged DPS. It's all on the melee to get the **** out of the way and limit their DPS. At some point, you just got to play what's there, and take things as they come. You don't like it? Unsub and come back at a later time, no one is forcing you to stick around cause you feel there's not enough content at the current time. I'm sure SE is reading much of the constructive criticism it receives, but it can't fix it over night or even in a month.

But, but, but, but it's 12$ a month! Content should roll out faster! Unfortunately, as a company they're out to make money. Yes they need to please you, the customer, but they also have to turn a profit and salary a whole whack of people. They hire too many people, then they don't make profit. I really need to stop ranting, at this point what I've done with EVERY MMO that had something I really didn't like? I left, unsubbed and walked away. That's it, that's all. Like I said earlier, you like the game but don't feel content is coming fast enough? Then unsub until it does, if you've truly done everything it has to offer at this point, what's the point in paying and not playing?
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#79 Nov 13 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Valkayree wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Valkayree wrote:
You gave away too much with the ring comment. Checked him out on lodestone and he had a long way to go still. He was nowhere near crafting endgame. Otherwise all that gear would be slotted, he would be using those levels to make money on 2 star items, and working the buy sell game to make millions. Housing is going to be a big market for people like him, and you will likely see him return after the 2.1 patch. Probably just got burnt out.


Actually, he said he was less interested in housing because it wouldn't be personal. :( I think he was quite disappointed when he found out it was FC-only. I am not sure why his Lodestone is showing his gear like that...when I looked at it, he had it all melded and such.

So I unlocked weaver, leveled it to 6, and now am killing Titan.

I don't think crafting will ever be my thing. Never did it in 11 or WoW, probably won't now.


Yeah the lack of personal housing is a dissapointment. I'm kinda bummed that I dont get to design FC logos or put walls where I want them, but hopefully we get some personal housing at some point. They gave us a room in FFXI, at least we could put some more stuff in our inn room to make it personal.


Edited, Nov 13th 2013 8:59am by Valkayree


They gave us a room in FFXIV. And if that's an indicator of their housing design capabilities ( a bed to log out, a retainer bell, a worthless dresser that will not accept 99.99% of items and a cutscene book ), they really just need to forget housing and move onto things they're good at.
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#80 Nov 13 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Zorvan wrote:
They gave us a room in FFXIV. And if that's an indicator of their housing design capabilities ( a bed to log out, a retainer bell, a worthless dresser that will not accept 99.99% of items and a cutscene book ), they really just need to forget housing and move onto things they're good at.


I wouldn't be opposed to scrapping housing altogether. I can't speak for everyone, but I would imagine the majority of people only spend the 10 seconds it takes to logout in their room.

SE needs to adjust the priority of their updates. If people spend less than 5% of their playtime in their housing, SE should spend less than 5% of their development resources trying to implement it Smiley: nod
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#81 Nov 13 2013 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Scrap housing? What?!?

I can't wait for Housing. My FC can't wait for Housing. We're eager to use our crafting skills to adorn our place with cool stuff. We're also eager to share the common goal of raising enough gil to get the house we want!

A good MMO experience means much more than stats on gear.

This game NEEDS things like Housing to really be a place where people want to spend time and not just grind away.
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#82 Nov 13 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Scrap housing? What?!?

I can't wait for Housing. My FC can't wait for Housing. We're eager to use our crafting skills to adorn our place with cool stuff. We're also eager to share the common goal of raising enough gil to get the house we want!

A good MMO experience means much more than stats on gear.

This game NEEDS things like Housing to really be a place where people want to spend time and not just grind away.


I agree only if the housing isn't coming at the expense of gameplay. If the housing system itself contains a decent amount of gameplay, then cool... go for it.

Housing is really something that can be added at any time though. And right now it does feel as though it's coming at the expense of gameplay, rather than as an addition to it. Not even talking about endgame, a common complaint about the current leveling model is that once you've done one job, you're pretty much relegated to FATE and dungeon grinding from 1 to 50, with some breaks to fill out a hunting log. That isn't being addressed at all here, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

To me it feels like the housing could have waited.
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#83 Nov 13 2013 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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While I've been somewhat cruel toward housing in calling it fluff content, what irks me more about the impending implementation is that this is the FC version and not an individual's. While I'm not especially worried about the FC I'm in imploding since it's led by a friend of mine from XI, I do worry about other people being exploited by shifty leaders or sudden fits of drama basically translating to a loss of resources for anyone who contributed. So, while fairer types might be like, "Bob made this dresser, so he can have it back..." you will have others who will just sell everything for personal profit.

But we'll see, I guess. I just have a habit of looking for faults in systems.
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#84 Nov 14 2013 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Scrap housing? What?!?

I can't wait for Housing. My FC can't wait for Housing. We're eager to use our crafting skills to adorn our place with cool stuff. We're also eager to share the common goal of raising enough gil to get the house we want!

A good MMO experience means much more than stats on gear.

This game NEEDS things like Housing to really be a place where people want to spend time and not just grind away.


I agree only if the housing isn't coming at the expense of gameplay.

Pretty much this.

Scrapping was a poor choice of words, my apologies. I meant it should be scrapped for the time being.

I'm not against them adding housing, just expressing that there should be other things at the top of their list of priorities right now. Implement and adjust content that the majority of players are taking part in and then take a look at the rest. At best it should be toward the bottom of the pile. There may be people looking forward to it, but in terms of what their other options are; they're not going to get a lot of mileage out of housing.

Also worth noting that they said(unless it's changed recently) that housing will be expensive. Odds are that you'll have to spend quite a bit of time amassing gil. If they implement housing and the average player has to farm for two months to get the best crib and furnishings, that's two months of wasted opportunity. 2 months you spent doing something you could already do(farming) instead of adding something new to participate in that could add a new dynamic immediately.



Edited, Nov 14th 2013 1:03am by FilthMcNasty
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#85 Nov 14 2013 at 1:29 AM Rating: Excellent
But new content is being added, and there is more to MMOs than grinding through endgame. You can't expect SE to cater to only the hardcore endgame crowd. Not only is housing fun, but it also creates a different kind of progression for people who aren't obsessed with raids. I am sure crafters will enjoy having added purpose, too.
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#86 Nov 14 2013 at 5:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
But new content is being added, and there is more to MMOs than grinding through endgame. You can't expect SE to cater to only the hardcore endgame crowd. Not only is housing fun, but it also creates a different kind of progression for people who aren't obsessed with raids. I am sure crafters will enjoy having added purpose, too.


I didn't suggest they focus solely on endgame. I said they need to focus on things that are important to the majority. If you look at the list of upcoming changes, the majority are not endgame focused. AFAIK the only things related only to endgame are a few dungeons, a few primals and the extreme modes. They need to trim the fat.

PvP? How about getting the PvE balance changes done first. UI changes, camera improvement, adding quests, finding treasure, job and pet adjustments... even if it takes longer for these things to be implemented, they all have much higher potential to affect your gameplay on a consistent basis.

Do we really need a beauty salon? Sure we do, but it's not important now. Some day I might appreciate being able to change my avatar's appearance. Unless it's a lengthy process, you'll end up spending maybe 15 mins of your playtime in your XIV career selecting a hairstyle. Is it worth pushing back camera adjustments which would be noticed every time you play?

It will not be well received by the players if SE is going to boast about the amount of content they will implement then turn around and release an update that's mostly fluff.
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#87 Nov 14 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you've ever played a character with long hair and seen how badly it clips in the armor, you'd rate having a hairstylist available much higher too. Smiley: lol
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#88 Nov 14 2013 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you've ever played a character with long hair and seen how badly it clips in the armor, you'd rate having a hairstylist available much higher too. Smiley: lol


I was actually going to emulate my XI character and have a long pony, but after hearing you talk about this awhile ago, I picked the little Samurai bun thingy :)
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#89 Nov 14 2013 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
But the majority of players are not endgame grinders. The majority want cool features like housing and the ability to change hairstyles.

And, we are still getting a big chunk of endgame content with the new dungeons, crystal tower and primals.

Job balance issues are being taken care of, too. So are numerous other tweaks to sharpen gameplay.

Everyone's needs are being met here without needing to ignore any group of players.
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#90 Nov 14 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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You know, if you're protected from rate downs (and as an extension of that your posts, regardless of their content, never falling to sub-default) it seems a bit of an abuse of an Admin status continually voicing the same opinion and perpetuating these back and forth arguments. It's not even that you're attempting to be a Devil's Advocate, your avatar doesn't resemble a white knight by accident I guess.
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#91 Nov 14 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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your avatar doesn't resemble a white knight by accident I guess.


You need to familiarize yourself with the classic Final Fantasy titles.

And, yeah, my rant thread about the stupidity of the endgame community was really white-knighting it up! Smiley: lol

I'm sorry that you disagree with... well, what do you disagree with exactly?

Quote:
perpetuating these back and forth arguments


You know how boring forums would be if people didn't discuss things in a back-and-forth manner? There's be one post, one reply, and that would be it. How is that fun?

Quote:
It's not even that you're attempting to be a Devil's Advocate


Are you saying I should just randomly change my positions on topics just for the sake of disagreeing with people?

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 10:55am by Thayos
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#92Releaser, Posted: Nov 14 2013 at 1:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm inferring, as an admin, you should shepherd threads at most not dominate them.
#93 Nov 14 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
I believe Filth might silently (or not so silently) object to the notion that I'm dominating this thread.

I appear to be defending my position against a few other posters. The only difference between that and a "devil's advocate" is that I actually mean what I'm saying.
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#94 Nov 14 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
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You can't be naive enough to believe that having your name in orange letters and perma-Excellent status doesn't lend weight to your arguments surely? That's a priviledge that comes with some small element of responsibility.
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#95 Nov 14 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Releaser wrote:
You can't be naive enough to believe that having your name in orange letters and perma-Excellent status doesn't lend weight to your arguments surely? That's a priviledge that comes with some small element of responsibility.


Happy 1000th post!

Sorry to derail, but can we get back to talking about fun stuff and tips/tricks, etc?
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#96 Nov 14 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Hairspray wrote:

Happy 1000th post!


Oh... thanks! Been a member of Alla since about 2001 and only now hit 1000 posts. I feel like such a slacker!

Btw... love the FC name, noticed it the other day and was kicking myself I hadn't thought of it.
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#97 Nov 14 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
perpetuating these back and forth arguments

You know how boring forums would be if people didn't discuss things in a back-and-forth manner? There's be one post, one reply, and that would be it. How is that fun?

Admins are admins. If they also want to be active in forum discussions in that manner, they should have separate non-admin accounts to post on. That's my opinion on the matter.
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#98 Nov 14 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can't be naive enough to believe that having your name in orange letters and perma-Excellent status doesn't lend weight to your arguments surely? That's a priviledge that comes with some small element of responsibility.


That is an awesome 1,000th post!

And, no, I don't think people who I chat with regularly on the forums really care much about me being an admin. As you can see in this thread, it doesn't scare people away from arguing with me, either.

As far as being responsible, here's what I think that means:

- Listening
- Being fair
- Being respectful
- Not trolling
- Not putting words in other people's mouths

Beyond those things, I'm free to discuss whatever I'd like. Frankly, over my 7+ years of being an admin here, I've earned it.

Quote:
If they also want to be active in forum discussions in that manner, they should have separate non-admin accounts to post on. That's my opinion on the matter.


Wow, I wonder if the culture around here has really shifted that much? Color me surprised.

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 11:25am by Thayos

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 11:26am by Thayos
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#99 Nov 14 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Frankly, over my 7+ years of being an admin here, I've earned it.


I'd rate you up, but, you know.
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#100 Nov 14 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Naw, I prefer to know when an admin is posting. I'd assume the trolls would want to know that, too. Otherwise they'd get into an argument with someone, cross the line, and feel cheated that it was the forum equivalent of an undercover cop.

Back on topic-ish, let me reiterate that testing takes a long time. A really fricking long time. I'm alpha testing one of the functions of a revamped program at work, and every time I find a new major bug I have to say "nope still not working" and sit on my haunches and wait two hours while our devs rebuild and redeploy. Then I get to test for another ten minutes. Rinse, repeat.

Hey, at least it gives me a lot of time to web surf. Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Nov 14th 2013 2:31pm by Catwho
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#101 Nov 14 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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And, no, I don't think people who I chat with regularly on the forums really care much about me being an admin. As you can see in this thread, it doesn't scare people away from arguing with me, either.


I used to. I got over it. Smiley: nod
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