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Take advantage of market fees to not undercut like an idiot.Follow

#1 Dec 04 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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Do people not realize this or are they just too stupid to care?

You're putting an item up on the market in Gridania. Currently there is someone else selling it for 3000g in Ul'dah. How much should you put yours up for?

The stupid answer is any amount below 3000g and the lower you go the stupider you are. You do not have to start an undercutting price war with people when you're selling from a different city. If you put your item up for 3000g then anyone buying from Gridania, assuming they're not an idiot as well, will buy your item over your competitor's because the item being sold from Ul'dah will come with an fee attached making their item cost more than yours by default.

Without having to start a price war you've managed to secure an advantage in 1/3 of the market, a 50% chance of selling in another 1/3 of the market and only come out the loser in the last 1/3 of the market all while keeping the price stable for future sales.

Every market covered by other sellers so you lose out on any advantage? Then if you must undercut at least undercut like someone with half a brain and go in small increments. Selling for 2899g moves your item no faster than if you had sold it for 2999g but you've screwed yourself out of 100g and started the price on a downward trend that the next idiot will try and match by putting theirs up for 2799g and so on and so on.
#4 Dec 04 2013 at 11:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly don't even think about or care about the market fees. Gil has so little meaning in this game.

Now, the folks who undercut to the point where they're selling items for the same or less than what they would sell to NPCs? Those people are idiots. Sell to an NPC, avoid the fees, and keep your market board slots open for the stuff that sells at a decent price.
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#5 Dec 04 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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PlanckZero wrote:
Do people not realize this or are they just too stupid to care?

You're putting an item up on the market in Gridania. Currently there is someone else selling it for 3000g in Ul'dah. How much should you put yours up for?

The stupid answer is any amount below 3000g and the lower you go the stupider you are. You do not have to start an undercutting price war with people when you're selling from a different city. If you put your item up for 3000g then anyone buying from Gridania, assuming they're not an idiot as well, will buy your item over your competitor's because the item being sold from Ul'dah will come with an fee attached making their item cost more than yours by default.

Without having to start a price war you've managed to secure an advantage in 1/3 of the market, a 50% chance of selling in another 1/3 of the market and only come out the loser in the last 1/3 of the market all while keeping the price stable for future sales.

Every market covered by other sellers so you lose out on any advantage? Then if you must undercut at least undercut like someone with half a brain and go in small increments. Selling for 2899g moves your item no faster than if you had sold it for 2999g but you've screwed yourself out of 100g and started the price on a downward trend that the next idiot will try and match by putting theirs up for 2799g and so on and so on.


It's... more complicated than that.

Okay, so maybe that Nophica's Wonderbra you're trying to sell is being sold by someone else for 3,000 gil. But how often does it sell? And what does it usually sell for? This is also important to consider.

If people haven't bought a Nophica's Wonderbra in three weeks and the last time it sold, they all went for 10 gil, it could be there's just no market for the product at all, and you'd be better off selling it to an NPC. Then again, maybe it's because they're no longer made and it's now a collector's item which, to right person, might actually go for 10,000 gil, especially if it were dyed pink.

More often than not, however, it's a question of supply. It could be Nophica's Wonderbra usually sells for 1,000 gil, but because the supply dried up, only the one being sold for 3,000 gil is left. It's at this moment, you have to ask yourself, is the supply going to come back, and if it does, is it going to be undercut all the way down to 1,000 gil again, and you better price it sufficiently downward so that you get a good price before the supply returns and ruins your chance to make more than 1,000 gil? Or should you ask for even more... maybe even 4,000 gil, which an anxious buyer might pay if the 3,000 gil bra sold leading them to believe the price is going up, and if they don't get that Nophica's Wonderbra for 4,000 gil now, how are they ever going to get the support for their chest that they need without risking paying even more for it, or not being able to buy it at all?

It's not just about reacting to the current price, but sensing the trend. If you always undercut, you'll never make as much as you could by taking advantage of a weakening supply.
#6 Dec 05 2013 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
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Also, if someone in Ul'dah is selling for 3k, then I'm putting it up in Gridania for 3k - I'll only reduce it if I was putting it up for sale with my Ul'dah retainer.

Xoie wrote:
It's not just about reacting to the current price, but sensing the trend. If you always undercut, you'll never make as much as you could by taking advantage of a weakening supply.


Also this, plus, people are stoopid.
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#7 Dec 05 2013 at 3:14 AM Rating: Good
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2800-2500-1500 Its a buyers market.I have to make space to sell real items, HQ items.The normal items anyone can make is almost junk in this game. It's all about how frequent is the sell history is. The HQ market is so strong putting materia on normal items does very little to move items. Lots of times if I put what I think is a good price equal with the other sellers the item never moves. I subtract the tax a lot of the times, It looks like undercutting but it makes other cities buy your items. I'm on a legacy server
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#8 Dec 05 2013 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
PlanckZero wrote:
Do people not realize this or are they just too stupid to care?

You're putting an item up on the market in Gridania. Currently there is someone else selling it for 3000g in Ul'dah. How much should you put yours up for?

The stupid answer is any amount below 3000g and the lower you go the stupider you are. You do not have to start an undercutting price war with people when you're selling from a different city. If you put your item up for 3000g then anyone buying from Gridania, assuming they're not an idiot as well, will buy your item over your competitor's because the item being sold from Ul'dah will come with an fee attached making their item cost more than yours by default.

Without having to start a price war you've managed to secure an advantage in 1/3 of the market, a 50% chance of selling in another 1/3 of the market and only come out the loser in the last 1/3 of the market all while keeping the price stable for future sales.

Every market covered by other sellers so you lose out on any advantage? Then if you must undercut at least undercut like someone with half a brain and go in small increments. Selling for 2899g moves your item no faster than if you had sold it for 2999g but you've screwed yourself out of 100g and started the price on a downward trend that the next idiot will try and match by putting theirs up for 2799g and so on and so on.


It's... more complicated than that.

Okay, so maybe that Nophica's Wonderbra you're trying to sell is being sold by someone else for 3,000 gil. But how often does it sell? And what does it usually sell for? This is also important to consider.

If people haven't bought a Nophica's Wonderbra in three weeks and the last time it sold, they all went for 10 gil, it could be there's just no market for the product at all, and you'd be better off selling it to an NPC. Then again, maybe it's because they're no longer made and it's now a collector's item which, to right person, might actually go for 10,000 gil, especially if it were dyed pink.

More often than not, however, it's a question of supply. It could be Nophica's Wonderbra usually sells for 1,000 gil, but because the supply dried up, only the one being sold for 3,000 gil is left. It's at this moment, you have to ask yourself, is the supply going to come back, and if it does, is it going to be undercut all the way down to 1,000 gil again, and you better price it sufficiently downward so that you get a good price before the supply returns and ruins your chance to make more than 1,000 gil? Or should you ask for even more... maybe even 4,000 gil, which an anxious buyer might pay if the 3,000 gil bra sold leading them to believe the price is going up, and if they don't get that Nophica's Wonderbra for 4,000 gil now, how are they ever going to get the support for their chest that they need without risking paying even more for it, or not being able to buy it at all?

It's not just about reacting to the current price, but sensing the trend. If you always undercut, you'll never make as much as you could by taking advantage of a weakening supply.


I wish I could rate this up more. lol

Edit: Looks like someone is butthurt and stalking me again. Smiley: rolleyes You'd like to think I don't know who but it's pretty obvious when it's so early in the morning and I can see the users viewing the thread. <3

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 9:06am by HitomeOfBismarck
#9 Dec 05 2013 at 3:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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@OP
I will make sure to undercut you by exactly 1 gil.
EVERY * SINGLE * TIME.
#11 Dec 05 2013 at 5:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Its actually not stupid/they are not idiots. You just dont understand economics. That is to say you dont understand the average consumer vs the savy consumer.

If it is selling for 3000 in uldah, and I want to sell mine faster, I will list it for less than 3000, lets say 2900, even if its in another city. Why? Even with fees it will sell for more right? Its for 2 reasons:
1) the same reason cars/electronics/big purchase items in the real world list stuff for 13,990! because the brain focuses on the first area and they think "im getting this car for 13k + tax!" not "im getting this car for 14k + tax".
2) 99% of players ignore the city and just say "TAKE MY MONEY I WANT IT NOW"

When people shop the market board 99% of the time they ignore which city its selling in, and honestly will pick the cheapest price. Be like 'oh theres fees, o well' and click buy. Sure the savy consumer will take an airship over to save on the fees, but the average joe who wants it now has already bought it while you were airshiping over, and now your out of the airship fee, ive gotten my gil, and someone has their new shiny wonder bra (lol).

So dont call people idiots because they undercut and you dont agree. There is actual method to their madness
#12 Dec 05 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'll criticize dramatic undercuts, personally.

I Had a T4 crit materia I'd made a while back and they were selling for around 800k in a full, if not near to it price history. I put mine up with like 3 other sellers. Undercut footsies begin. 1g here, 100g there, maybe 5k. Naturally we're hoping to be the first sale. Boom, someone suddenly lists for 450k and the war plummets even further down. Took me roughly 2 weeks to sell that sell that materia adjusting my price maybe every 4 hours on average. Worth the 290k? Well, I would've preferred 750k+.

Lacking patience, I guess.
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#13 Dec 05 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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What you were seeing Seriha, is the result of gil sellers getting banned. T4 matter really should never have been that high. If you think about actual sources for gil, you would need to level 2 characters 1-50 selling everything and geting coin options for each quest, never repairing, never teleporting, etc.

Its like when ARR first went live and people were selling stuff for millions on brand new servers... gil had to come from somewhere, and most got it from gil sellers, then the crafters who made the gil legitimately by selling stuff, but they were just as at fault for pricing things beyond the reach of the legitimate players.

I feel even 200k for a t4 materia is still inflated and I think ultimately when they get rid of the rest of the gil sellers, you will see something more like

4/3/2/1
50k/1-5k/100-500/50-10

With out legitimate routes to make 100k of gil, and gil sellers being slowly caught/banned, eventually the market will have to go down, because Joeloser who was buying 10 million gil at a time for 100 bucks just to buy t4 mater/philo crafted items/titan carries, has been banned now you have to wait for people to legitimately earn that money and when they do, they will say 'no way in **** this is worth 10 weeks of grinding for a t4 materia'

edit: I like how auto correct changes materia into mater :-(

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 8:27am by dustinfoley
#14 Dec 05 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I honestly don't even think about or care about the market fees. Gil has so little meaning in this game.
.


It means a lot when you don't rely on the AH though.

The fact that I don't like relying on the AH are for some of the reasons posted in this thread. I hate resorting to undercutting and I don't like being undercut. Been through that so much in FFXI that I've become anti-AH.. My argument has always been "why undercut?! It's going to sell regardless at the current price anyway!" And yes you would think "because people want it NOW". It's counterproductive. You also start LOSING gil by doing so, and trying to break even, isn't breaking even anymore.
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#15 Dec 05 2013 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I'll criticize dramatic undercuts, personally.

I Had a T4 crit materia I'd made a while back and they were selling for around 800k in a full, if not near to it price history. I put mine up with like 3 other sellers. Undercut footsies begin. 1g here, 100g there, maybe 5k. Naturally we're hoping to be the first sale. Boom, someone suddenly lists for 450k and the war plummets even further down. Took me roughly 2 weeks to sell that sell that materia adjusting my price maybe every 4 hours on average. Worth the 290k? Well, I would've preferred 750k+.

Lacking patience, I guess.

That would have been gilsellers who jacked up the price to 800k in order to cover their gil transactions.

Quote:
My argument has always been "why undercut?! It's going to sell regardless at the current price anyway!" And yes you would think "because people want it NOW". It's counterproductive. You also start LOSING gil by doing so, and trying to break even, isn't breaking even anymore.


Because I sell my stuff 5 times faster than you do, in turn making 5 times the profit (or rather 4.99 times, because I have to undercut).

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 8:51am by Rinsui
#16 Dec 05 2013 at 7:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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MMO economies are so complex that they actually use them to study real economics... in fact several people have done so.

My point is that the object you are selling is ultimately worth what someone is willing to pay for it, nothing more.

If you feel that it's worth 1 million gil, and nobody is willing to buy it for that much, then it's really not worth that much and you need to adjust your views.

That's the truth of economics.

Undercutting is just the natural flow of supply and demand, if there are too many Earth Crystals on the AH, and nobody is buying them for 160 gil each for stacks of 1000, then perhaps there's not enough demand for that price to make sense...

If I'm a crafter and I know that the price of said crystals fluctuates, and I can buy them cheaper at another point, or just farm them myself, often I will do just that. So your crystals are not worth the price if I'm not buying them.

Same thing goes for any item really... buyers set the price, not the sellers... you may think the seller is setting the price, but that's just who is placing it for sale at a certain price, the buyers ultimately control the price in a free market.

The taxes on the AH are a whole different story, Most people are unaware that the tax is only paid by the buyer if they buy from a retainer in a city other than the one they are located in. Calling them stupid for not having been aware of a fact such as this is not fair.

I wouldn't call you stupid for thinking that undercutting was bad, or that sellers control the price. I'll simply try to help you understand it better.

A better topic would have been "FYI - Taxes are only paid by the buyer if they buy from a retainer in another city."

You probably would have gotten a ton of thank you's and been rated up through the roof for that... but instead you decided to call people stupid for not being aware...



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#17 Dec 05 2013 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I love using the 99 rule. Because 13.99 sounds so much lower than 14.
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#18 Dec 05 2013 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I use the 99 rule all the time, cause it does really work. But yeah the undercutters drive me crazy when I check history and see a few sales for 4000, list mine for 3999, and come back a day later and find 100 of them between 100 and 1000. Its basically just impatient people wanting instant sales and it spirals. Nothing in the game is that rare either, so unless you find a buyer at an exact moment when inventory is low you'll never sell something high. Gil is pretty meaningless unless you're going for pentamelded 50 gear.

You don't need anything special while leveling because gear is either given in quests or of trivial cost. There's really no point in buying HQ stuff unless you just want to, because in a few hours your next job quest will give you a better weapon for free. Same with gear. Fill the slots and you're good. 50 gear is mostly drops, so again, free. Crafting can be sorta expensive, but you can often gather materials yourself and keep watching the markets because an undercutter will probably sell you what you need :)
#19 Dec 05 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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The majority of people are going to go to the market place to buy an item, pick the one that is listed for the lowest price and buy it, regardless of anything else, that's just the way it is.
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#20 Dec 05 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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Yeah, there is a lot going on when someone chooses to undercut by a wide margin or any margin.

While some sellers are unaware of how the tax system works, it's also true that many buyers are unaware or don't care.

I suggest the latter is the case. When I go to the market to buy something I rarely penny pinch. I buy the lowest listed item. I do not do the math to figure out the tax. I do what's at the lowest point, because 5% isn't worth my time in most cases. I'd also buy over priced XYZ item in a convienent stack rather than buy 5 smaller stacks for less, just because it'll save me clicks and I'll get to whatever task I actually want to be doing, rather than staring at the Market Board.

This economy is shifting, but in no way is it a place where people who want to make money, are unable to do so. You might not make as much as you want to make due to undercutting, or vendors, or bots, or whatever. But there are plenty of ways to make more than enough money to fulfill whatever want you have in the game.

In terms of taxes, I think it's also smart to look at what places like to buy what items. Do goldsmith items sell more in udhal?

I usually like to undercut 1 gil off the lowest price or I do the highest price and sell simply a stack of one. But certainly some buyers are cognizant of taxes and take that sort of thing into account.

For Materia grade 4 I'll warp to the appropriate place before I buy.
#21 Dec 05 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Default
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Loris wrote:
I use the 99 rule all the time, cause it does really work. But yeah the undercutters drive me crazy when I check history and see a few sales for 4000, list mine for 3999, and come back a day later and find 100 of them between 100 and 1000. Its basically just impatient people wanting instant sales and it spirals. Nothing in the game is that rare either, so unless you find a buyer at an exact moment when inventory is low you'll never sell something high. Gil is pretty meaningless unless you're going for pentamelded 50 gear.

You don't need anything special while leveling because gear is either given in quests or of trivial cost. There's really no point in buying HQ stuff unless you just want to, because in a few hours your next job quest will give you a better weapon for free. Same with gear. Fill the slots and you're good. 50 gear is mostly drops, so again, free. Crafting can be sorta expensive, but you can often gather materials yourself and keep watching the markets because an undercutter will probably sell you what you need :)


I tend to buy hq gear as long as it's not more than 3x the price. In the case of lvl 50 gear, the price can be really out of whack. People do not want low quality.

I find it hard to quantify how much it's worth. But it seems like in a lot of cases, if I did the math, it'd be cheaper to buy NQ gear and then add materia to make it's stats = to the HQ gear.

But I never go that route. Having to switch classes to meld is kind of a hassle. I'll just pay the premium and be happy with it while I'm using it.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 12:20pm by Squander
#22 Dec 05 2013 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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#23 Dec 05 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Jeskradha wrote:
The majority of people are going to go to the market place to buy an item, pick the one that is listed for the lowest price and buy it, regardless of anything else, that's just the way it is.


Unless I am buying shards. I tend to buy shards from single sellers in supply of 100-200 and not always at the lowest price so I am not contributing to the gil sellers pockets.
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#24 Dec 05 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
What you were seeing Seriha, is the result of gil sellers getting banned.

Were that the case, they were incredibly sneaky in spreading their sales out over the course of weeks. There were also no real significant dips. Maybe 50k higher and lower. Is it possible they sold a materia or two? Maybe, but I don't see what they gained losing 70k+ 10+ times just to pad the history. Almost seems counter-productive to their operation, no?

As for the other aspect of people not having enough gil for such things, this is where I'd generally emphasize participating in the market could help get you to that point. Of course you wouldn't have 800k if you just ran off story rewards. Are you out there generating resources as a gatherer or slaughtering mobs like sheep or boars? If not, then of course money's gonna be tight. And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia? I'm sorry, I can understand why the buyer benefits from a cheaper market, but sellers need some coin, too. If not, production stops. And while it's easy to assume some phantom person will step in and pick up the slack, there's a part of me that thinks no matter how much some may try to correlate MMO economics to reality, it'll never quite jive because there ARE factors missing. In turn, some economies may suffer simply because they're not fun to participate in as a player not wanting to do their best RMT craft bot impression.

But economies suffering also have another issue, particularly in the endgame inferiority department. Not many want to spend hundreds of thousands of k, perhaps even into the millions to make gear that's inferior to drops. It's basically a self-fulfilling prophecy when a dev sets that wall.
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#25 Dec 05 2013 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
I'll criticize dramatic undercuts, personally.

I Had a T4 crit materia I'd made a while back and they were selling for around 800k in a full, if not near to it price history. I put mine up with like 3 other sellers. Undercut footsies begin. 1g here, 100g there, maybe 5k. Naturally we're hoping to be the first sale. Boom, someone suddenly lists for 450k and the war plummets even further down. Took me roughly 2 weeks to sell that sell that materia adjusting my price maybe every 4 hours on average. Worth the 290k? Well, I would've preferred 750k+.

Lacking patience, I guess.


One other thing to consider is that buyers are patient too. If I see a high-priced inventory building up that only sells once a week or even longer, you know a price drop is inevitable, and I'll wait for a better time. Sellers have more reason to be nervous than I do in that case.

But lowering the price can be advantageous for a seller too. If I had 20 T4 crits to sell and more on the way because I'm a prolific materia assimilator, I may want to increase the rate at which I sell them to make more money. Sure I could wait for that one crafter who bothers to pay 800k, but there could be 4 or 5 who'd jump at 500k. So rather than get my one 800k a week, I could be getting 2,000k or 2,500k instead by improving the price point and increasing the size of the market.
#26 Dec 05 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon
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#27 Dec 05 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Especially the Gold and Darksteel Ores... it's not even worth it anymore on Ultros... I just go get the level 30 nodes for regular crystals now instead... they sell for 100-150 each which is not much less than the Darksteel and Gold, only you don't have to wait an hour to go get them.
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#28 Dec 05 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@OP
I will make sure to undercut you by exactly 1 gil.
EVERY * SINGLE * TIME.


it works like a charm for me!
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#29 Dec 05 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Especially the Gold and Darksteel Ores... it's not even worth it anymore on Ultros... I just go get the level 30 nodes for regular crystals now instead... they sell for 100-150 each which is not much less than the Darksteel and Gold, only you don't have to wait an hour to go get them.


Yeah, selling the raw materials is completely pointless. Turning them into ingots/nuggets/lumber isn't so bad. I'm honestly only gathering them here and there for a little xp and just to say "I did that" I did get REALLY lucky and was able to get a whole stack of HQ coccoons for like 30k, so I don't bother with them right now.... but other than that I spend almost nothing on materials. I did buy some shards, but I'll be gathering my own crystals and clusters for sure because of the cost.
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#30 Dec 06 2013 at 1:58 AM Rating: Default
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@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...
#31 Dec 06 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?
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#32 Dec 06 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.
#33 Dec 06 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.


What does "ジャ" mean?

I translated it as "Ja" using the Google, but I have no idea what Ja means.... is that the number 5?
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#34 Dec 06 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Lol, it seems like Bob's owner's main motivation might just be to clear out his limited inventory as fast as possible because its either lowball everyone on the ah, drop the item for 0, or sell to a NPC for a whopping 2 gil. We need more inventory space, more retainers, or better NPC gil return to discourage this "idc" behavior from violent undercutters. Either that or be able to buy items through your retainer while checking prices. I can tell you how many times I have made stuff to sell, then see everyone is listing it for 1.5k except this one dude who posted it for 200. I'm thinking, I could walk over to the marketplace and buy that and repost it and make a cool 1.3k. I'm not posting my junk at 199... But in the end I dont because the time it would take to drop what I am doing, walk over there, look it up, buy it, go back over, wait 5 minutes for my retainer to appear in crowded *** Uldah (what are they on the toilet or something?) then post the item for resale is frankly not worth that 1.3k to me. So I would just post my item for 1.45k and let someone else scoop up the one for 200 and the next guy get my item. Takes a bit longer that way, but still, easier than the process I need to go through to buy. I wish I could just scoop up undercutter's items via my retainer right then and there. I used to be able to do that in PSU and it was one of the things that game got right.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 10:03am by Valkayree
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#35 Dec 06 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do that. I will actually jump over and buy it, then add it to what I'm already selling. I also fake-sell stuff to check the price w/o having to search the board. I set it up to sell, check the history, then pop over once I have a look at stuff I might need.

Also:

Quote:
(what are they on the toilet or something?)


You win extra internets for this because I thought something similar the other day only it was: "hold on I'll be right there, the baby's crying." lol.
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#36 Dec 06 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia? .



Well let me elaborate for you since i have no idea where your numbers are coming from.

I am 50 all trade crafts, 50 all dol.
I can make a full suit of i55 gear (10 items) to SB, add 1-3 junk materia to each item, and in an hour, for no cost to me come out with at least 1 t4 materia that sell well (vit/acc/crit/det), and the rest t3/t4 stuff that sells moderately well (minus elemental, which you should save for melding your next batch of SB gear)

So when the only cost is my time for making the materia, how do I justify 800k for a crit materia? I personally cant, i know the average player wont pay it, and if they do, they probably bought gil and I will end up losing that gil anyways.

At 50k for a t4 (where is should be/will be once more people level crafting/harvesting), the average player can easily buy 1-2 for melding. I just dont see how people can justify these massive price tags. Stuff like i70 crafted takes about 2hrs of WP SRS to make and has gone from 2-3m a piece down to about 350k on my server.
#37 Dec 06 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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It'd be terrible for SE to even consider releasing T5 materia right now when crafted gear and the open world simply doesn't support its production. At best, you could hope for something like the i55 gear where you'd get a 25% chance to roll a T4, just with i70s and T5s. As well, you can pretty much bet this would crash the T4 market if easier production were also possible. You can say you won't pay 300k for a T4 all you want, but from the gear where that's guaranteed, you can bet it cost every dime of that to make it, or at least did prior the pending adjustment (Reminder: It's crafted). Even if you chopped off 25% from its competitive (and unreliable) source, it's still 225k. Though not all T4s cost this anyway. Crit just happens to be the popular one.

I guess I'll never understand why some feel MMO economies are healthy when they advocate producers constantly taking losses. But I guess some just don't care because they can run dungeons and get better sh*t anyway.

Edit: And since it slipped in while I was typing...
Quote:
So when the only cost is my time for making the materia, how do I justify 800k for a crit materia? I personally cant, i know the average player wont pay it, and if they do, they probably bought gil and I will end up losing that gil anyways.

You're paying more than the time it took to SB, actually. There is the cost of the materials you used to make the i55 gear. Even if you gathered them, they have a market value. The gear you then make also has a value, and I would suspect somewhere between the 10-20k range if HQ. Once you're out in the field, that could turn anywhere from a few hundred gil with elemental junk or that in-demand T4. Naturally, you want to average over the market value of the gear itself. Did you ever sit down to calculate that? Give it a shot the next time you throw a SB set together and see what kind of difference you get with the materia result. It's quite possible you've lost money if RNG hates you.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 1:22pm by Seriha
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#38 Dec 06 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
You're paying more than the time it took to SB, actually. There is the cost of the materials you used to make the i55 gear. Even if you gathered them, they have a market value. The gear you then make also has a value, and I would suspect somewhere between the 10-20k range if HQ. Once you're out in the field, that could turn anywhere from a few hundred gil with elemental junk or that in-demand T4. Naturally, you want to average over the market value of the gear itself. Did you ever sit down to calculate that? Give it a shot the next time you throw a SB set together and see what kind of difference you get with the materia result. It's quite possible you've lost money if RNG hates you.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 1:22pm by Seriha

There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".

This is like when someone balks at buying a pack of pens at the store because the raw materials that make up the pen should only be a few cents (which may not even be accurate). They completely ignore the initial setup costs for the factory that churns out the pens (leveling DoH and DoL classes) and the ongoing costs of labor involved (the time it takes to harvest, craft, meld, then soulbind).
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#39 Dec 06 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Thats the thing, this is a game not a real economy. My character could make 0 gil for the next 10 weeks and still be living of my money I already made. There are no income taxes, there are no sales taxes (unless you buy from a different town), no one cares that it took me 3-4 weeks to get all crafters to 50 and geared, and that initial 'setup' cost was already paid for with the enjoyment i got out of leveling.

This is a game, I can be 'unemployed' and it not matter. My 'business' could turn 0 profit from now on, and i dont have to recuperate losses since my only loss was potential profit, and there is 0 use for gil in this game if you can craft anything yourself (aside from buying titans). Sure soon, you can buy a house for your free company, or vanity items/ hair cuts, but nothing appreciable.

If this were a real world example then yes, I would have to charge for those things, and account for the fact that a 10k item i made into materia neted me -9.9k gil since it went elemental, but that doesnt mean that vit materia i do get is suddenly worth an extra 9k to compensate for loss.

Real world is not the same as in game.... sorry guys its just a game, real world logic doesn't always work.

My net cost to make those items 0, no one cares if i harvested them myself or bought them from the market, in the end, the raw materials came out of thin air, will never be depleted, and will actually eventually end up in excess to the point that their price will always go down.

My potential profit should i try to sell them? maybe 100k over 2-3 days, lets be honest, no one really buys them since AK/WP gear is better and is free, so it might take longer and i would have to constantly be checking the price to see if i was under cut

My average profit should i SB them in 1-2 hrs? about 300-400k average on 10x i55 items

#40 Dec 06 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Hairspray wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.


What does "ジャ" mean?

I translated it as "Ja" using the Google, but I have no idea what Ja means.... is that the number 5?

Well, it means nothing unless you are a Japanese FF player. Just like -ga, -ra, -da, -ja is used as a "tier" designator.
And yes, normally "ja" means nothing at all.
#41 Dec 06 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:

There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".



You must not have leveled doh/dol. They are free to level, and DoH actually nets you a HUGE profit the entire time you are leveling it. DOL is even better, you just harvest 200 of every item, put 100 for sale and use the other 100 for your own crafting...done, profit made, 0 cost.

For DoH: Tripple hand in leves with HQ = lots of gil, and if you harvested everything yourself, its all 100% profit.


So there is no hidden cost unless you are buying raws/gear/finished products to hand in to level.
#42 Dec 06 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Easy fix. do like FFXI did and only show the history and not what people are selling for.. There will be undercutting but not nearly as bad...
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#43 Dec 06 2013 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
svlyons wrote:
There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".

You must not have leveled doh/dol. They are free to level, and DoH actually nets you a HUGE profit the entire time you are leveling it. DOL is even better, you just harvest 200 of every item, put 100 for sale and use the other 100 for your own crafting...done, profit made, 0 cost.

For DoH: Tripple hand in leves with HQ = lots of gil, and if you harvested everything yourself, its all 100% profit.


So there is no hidden cost unless you are buying raws/gear/finished products to hand in to level.

I have lvl 50 WVR and lvl 50 LTH.

Time is money, and money is time. You can spend your time to save money. You can spend your money to save time. You can do a mix of both (which is what most people do). Spending time is still a cost. There's no such thing as free.
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#44 Dec 06 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Easy fix. do like FFXI did and only show the history and not what people are selling for.. There will be undercutting but not nearly as bad...

I wish they had simply taken the FFXI AH system and tweaked it by not necessarily having the lowest priced item always sell first. Instead, I would have preferred if the oldest listed item that meets the buyers price had been the next to sell.

With FFXI, you could practically guarantee your item would be the next to sell by pricing at at just 1 gil, and would often get the full market price because people didn't always try bidding 1 gil. FFXIV is almost just as bad, since the most recent person to list their item can see all the asking prices and undercut by just a few gil. If you undercut by 2% of the lowest asking price, you're guaranteed to have the lowest buying cost regardless of which city the buyer is in. The newest seller shouldn't be at such an automatic advantage.
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#45 Dec 06 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have 8 level 50 classes... none of them can fight lol. I'm basically at the point where I need to level my WHM the 1/2 a level to 50 so I can start wearing the stuff I'm making for it. Believe it or not, some people play and craft just for because "I made that".

Keep in mind, not everything in the game is out today. Crafters are going to become even more important once housing begins, and new content is released later down the road. The one thing I keep coming back to is if crafting were really worthless, materia wouldn't sell.

As far as economics are concerned, it's hit or miss really. I have every thing leveled up so I usually just browse the boards, see what's selling and make some of it if I'm really hurting for cash.... which I never really am because i make/gather 90-95% of it on my own.

Regarding the time vs. money issue I look at it this way: Right now, gathering things is giving me xp for my gathering classes, so I'm really killing 2 birds with one stone. Sure, I spend money on tele-fees, but 2 swings on a cluster node pays for that. Right now, I try to gather as much of what I need as possible.

My goal is to try to position myself as best as I possibly can. I want to be able to have someone ask me: "hey can anyone...." and be able to answer "Yes, I can do that" every time. I'm building a big foundation and I can only hope it will allow me to build the best character I can.
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#46dustinfoley, Posted: Dec 06 2013 at 3:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Time is money is a fallacy, it assumes that you work to make money and is a flaw that you learn in most economic classes. Google 'cash flow quadrant'.
#47 Dec 06 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
Time is money is a fallacy, it assumes that you work to make money and is a flaw that you learn in most economic classes. Google 'cash flow quadrant'.

I don't need to google anything. I can do thinking for myself. You can spend your time to save money (harvesting ore yourself so you don't have to buy it), or you can spend money to save time (buy it so you don't have to harvest it yourself). You can exchange one for the other. Ergo, time is money, and money is time.
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#48 Dec 06 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
It's not just about reacting to the current price, but sensing the trend. If you always undercut, you'll never make as much as you could by taking advantage of a weakening supply.


Might be carry over from FFXI. I'd say I'm guilty of not making as much as I could and should have in Vana'diel, but I only had a handful of AH spaces to list and I didn't want stuff coming back to me in my dbox... the dbox already backed up with gear I mailed to myself because I don't have enough storage Smiley: sly
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#49 Dec 06 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
Time is money is a fallacy...

I acknowledged that game economies aren't like RL economies, reasons like food not going bad, transportation, paying other employees, and then some. This certainly tricks people into think they can settle for less than their effort. However, what you're saying is that Opportunity Cost doesn't exist. Let me put it another way, why make 10k an hour when you could make 50k? Doing the former is using your time inefficiently, which may include gathering your own materials.
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#50 Dec 06 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default
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Well u make the assumption that if you arent making money (in your words, the max possible money) while you are playing, you are wasting time/ being inefficent

If you run a dungeon, you arent making the max possible money, ergo you are wasting time and money right?

If you are doing a quest you arent making the max ammount of money, ergo you are wasting time/mony right?

Opportunity cost only means anything in a business, and your character isn't a business (unless you are a RMT).
#51 Dec 06 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your earning potential changes as your character levels and gear improves. I'm not so crudely robotic as to say if you're not making money 24/7, you're wasting time. What I'm saying is when you do sit down and decide to make money, you want to do it the best way you can. If could be mass producing ingots. It could be mining shards. It could be killing sheep for fleece. It could be SBing gear and AHing the materia. There are numerous ways, but there will always be a best way, even if it fluctuates between markets. And that's where versatility certainly helps.

Having fun while you're making money is not something any of us can personally price, however. On the other hand, not having fun while doing it certainly makes us wish to get the most bang for our buck. When you feel like a robot slogging away at the economy grind, those periods of low-profit or loss aren't very motivating. How blaise people are toward markets doesn't help, either.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 7:06pm by Seriha
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