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Take advantage of market fees to not undercut like an idiot.Follow

#27 Dec 05 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Especially the Gold and Darksteel Ores... it's not even worth it anymore on Ultros... I just go get the level 30 nodes for regular crystals now instead... they sell for 100-150 each which is not much less than the Darksteel and Gold, only you don't have to wait an hour to go get them.
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#28 Dec 05 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@OP
I will make sure to undercut you by exactly 1 gil.
EVERY * SINGLE * TIME.


it works like a charm for me!
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#29 Dec 05 2013 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Hairspray wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Especially the Gold and Darksteel Ores... it's not even worth it anymore on Ultros... I just go get the level 30 nodes for regular crystals now instead... they sell for 100-150 each which is not much less than the Darksteel and Gold, only you don't have to wait an hour to go get them.


Yeah, selling the raw materials is completely pointless. Turning them into ingots/nuggets/lumber isn't so bad. I'm honestly only gathering them here and there for a little xp and just to say "I did that" I did get REALLY lucky and was able to get a whole stack of HQ coccoons for like 30k, so I don't bother with them right now.... but other than that I spend almost nothing on materials. I did buy some shards, but I'll be gathering my own crystals and clusters for sure because of the cost.
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#30 Dec 06 2013 at 1:58 AM Rating: Default
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@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...
#31 Dec 06 2013 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?
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#32 Dec 06 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
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LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.
#33 Dec 06 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.


What does "ジャ" mean?

I translated it as "Ja" using the Google, but I have no idea what Ja means.... is that the number 5?
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#34 Dec 06 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Furiousnixon wrote:
This is all very complicated. I think the market is broken up into "I'm paying attention, I care, I want to make the largest return possible." and "I would like to sell this item now, I don't care, I have a fair amount of gil, which makes me care even less."

These two don't get along. The important point is that one party is going to complain and rail against the heavens themselves that BobTheRetainer cut the price of Garbage Rock of Whatever in half. Trouble is... Bob's owner couldn't give a single fig what you think. If it all burned to the ground they'd shrug and walk away. You can't really reconcile or fix that using market forces alone. The other party in this isn't motivated to change or even engaged in the conversation.

That being said I know it sucks... I'm a miner and I haven't mined in... a while. No point. Everything sells for peanuts only to be turned into a crafted something or other to sell for substantially more. The mining community is allowing itself to be taken for a ride and they've no interest in changing that apparently.

Edited, Dec 5th 2013 2:34pm by Furiousnixon


Lol, it seems like Bob's owner's main motivation might just be to clear out his limited inventory as fast as possible because its either lowball everyone on the ah, drop the item for 0, or sell to a NPC for a whopping 2 gil. We need more inventory space, more retainers, or better NPC gil return to discourage this "idc" behavior from violent undercutters. Either that or be able to buy items through your retainer while checking prices. I can tell you how many times I have made stuff to sell, then see everyone is listing it for 1.5k except this one dude who posted it for 200. I'm thinking, I could walk over to the marketplace and buy that and repost it and make a cool 1.3k. I'm not posting my junk at 199... But in the end I dont because the time it would take to drop what I am doing, walk over there, look it up, buy it, go back over, wait 5 minutes for my retainer to appear in crowded *** Uldah (what are they on the toilet or something?) then post the item for resale is frankly not worth that 1.3k to me. So I would just post my item for 1.45k and let someone else scoop up the one for 200 and the next guy get my item. Takes a bit longer that way, but still, easier than the process I need to go through to buy. I wish I could just scoop up undercutter's items via my retainer right then and there. I used to be able to do that in PSU and it was one of the things that game got right.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 10:03am by Valkayree
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#35 Dec 06 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do that. I will actually jump over and buy it, then add it to what I'm already selling. I also fake-sell stuff to check the price w/o having to search the board. I set it up to sell, check the history, then pop over once I have a look at stuff I might need.

Also:

Quote:
(what are they on the toilet or something?)


You win extra internets for this because I thought something similar the other day only it was: "hold on I'll be right there, the baby's crying." lol.
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#36 Dec 06 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:

And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia? .



Well let me elaborate for you since i have no idea where your numbers are coming from.

I am 50 all trade crafts, 50 all dol.
I can make a full suit of i55 gear (10 items) to SB, add 1-3 junk materia to each item, and in an hour, for no cost to me come out with at least 1 t4 materia that sell well (vit/acc/crit/det), and the rest t3/t4 stuff that sells moderately well (minus elemental, which you should save for melding your next batch of SB gear)

So when the only cost is my time for making the materia, how do I justify 800k for a crit materia? I personally cant, i know the average player wont pay it, and if they do, they probably bought gil and I will end up losing that gil anyways.

At 50k for a t4 (where is should be/will be once more people level crafting/harvesting), the average player can easily buy 1-2 for melding. I just dont see how people can justify these massive price tags. Stuff like i70 crafted takes about 2hrs of WP SRS to make and has gone from 2-3m a piece down to about 350k on my server.
#37 Dec 06 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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It'd be terrible for SE to even consider releasing T5 materia right now when crafted gear and the open world simply doesn't support its production. At best, you could hope for something like the i55 gear where you'd get a 25% chance to roll a T4, just with i70s and T5s. As well, you can pretty much bet this would crash the T4 market if easier production were also possible. You can say you won't pay 300k for a T4 all you want, but from the gear where that's guaranteed, you can bet it cost every dime of that to make it, or at least did prior the pending adjustment (Reminder: It's crafted). Even if you chopped off 25% from its competitive (and unreliable) source, it's still 225k. Though not all T4s cost this anyway. Crit just happens to be the popular one.

I guess I'll never understand why some feel MMO economies are healthy when they advocate producers constantly taking losses. But I guess some just don't care because they can run dungeons and get better sh*t anyway.

Edit: And since it slipped in while I was typing...
Quote:
So when the only cost is my time for making the materia, how do I justify 800k for a crit materia? I personally cant, i know the average player wont pay it, and if they do, they probably bought gil and I will end up losing that gil anyways.

You're paying more than the time it took to SB, actually. There is the cost of the materials you used to make the i55 gear. Even if you gathered them, they have a market value. The gear you then make also has a value, and I would suspect somewhere between the 10-20k range if HQ. Once you're out in the field, that could turn anywhere from a few hundred gil with elemental junk or that in-demand T4. Naturally, you want to average over the market value of the gear itself. Did you ever sit down to calculate that? Give it a shot the next time you throw a SB set together and see what kind of difference you get with the materia result. It's quite possible you've lost money if RNG hates you.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 1:22pm by Seriha
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#38 Dec 06 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
You're paying more than the time it took to SB, actually. There is the cost of the materials you used to make the i55 gear. Even if you gathered them, they have a market value. The gear you then make also has a value, and I would suspect somewhere between the 10-20k range if HQ. Once you're out in the field, that could turn anywhere from a few hundred gil with elemental junk or that in-demand T4. Naturally, you want to average over the market value of the gear itself. Did you ever sit down to calculate that? Give it a shot the next time you throw a SB set together and see what kind of difference you get with the materia result. It's quite possible you've lost money if RNG hates you.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 1:22pm by Seriha

There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".

This is like when someone balks at buying a pack of pens at the store because the raw materials that make up the pen should only be a few cents (which may not even be accurate). They completely ignore the initial setup costs for the factory that churns out the pens (leveling DoH and DoL classes) and the ongoing costs of labor involved (the time it takes to harvest, craft, meld, then soulbind).
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#39 Dec 06 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Thats the thing, this is a game not a real economy. My character could make 0 gil for the next 10 weeks and still be living of my money I already made. There are no income taxes, there are no sales taxes (unless you buy from a different town), no one cares that it took me 3-4 weeks to get all crafters to 50 and geared, and that initial 'setup' cost was already paid for with the enjoyment i got out of leveling.

This is a game, I can be 'unemployed' and it not matter. My 'business' could turn 0 profit from now on, and i dont have to recuperate losses since my only loss was potential profit, and there is 0 use for gil in this game if you can craft anything yourself (aside from buying titans). Sure soon, you can buy a house for your free company, or vanity items/ hair cuts, but nothing appreciable.

If this were a real world example then yes, I would have to charge for those things, and account for the fact that a 10k item i made into materia neted me -9.9k gil since it went elemental, but that doesnt mean that vit materia i do get is suddenly worth an extra 9k to compensate for loss.

Real world is not the same as in game.... sorry guys its just a game, real world logic doesn't always work.

My net cost to make those items 0, no one cares if i harvested them myself or bought them from the market, in the end, the raw materials came out of thin air, will never be depleted, and will actually eventually end up in excess to the point that their price will always go down.

My potential profit should i try to sell them? maybe 100k over 2-3 days, lets be honest, no one really buys them since AK/WP gear is better and is free, so it might take longer and i would have to constantly be checking the price to see if i was under cut

My average profit should i SB them in 1-2 hrs? about 300-400k average on 10x i55 items

#40 Dec 06 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Hairspray wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Seriha
Quote:
And to be honest, I actually found your suggested tier costs a bit insulting to those who do take the time to produce things. 100g for a T1? 50k for something you probably spent 1/4 in resources to produce and then gamble with the RNG to not get a T3 or elemental materia?

*Shrug*. Don't like it - don't do it. I will not pay 300k for a T4 materia I know to be replaced by T5 in the next patch, which happens to be just a week and a few days off. I saw T3 drop from 80k to 800 in just a few weeks. If you insist on still selling yours for 80k - all power to you. ^.^/ I sold mine by undercutting to 40k when the time was right, because I knew nobody with a sane mind would buy them @80k anyway. In fact, I still shed a tear of sorrow for the poor sob who actually paid 40k...


Is T5 a sure thing? What would you convert to get it? And where is the matter coming from?

Well, I remember seeing a 2.1 screenshot with a ジャ materia a couple of days ago. Right now the highest is ガ (IV);
and since I-III are ア,ラ,ダ, respectively, I guess we are in for an upgrade. Of course that's not an official statement;
just logic.


What does "ジャ" mean?

I translated it as "Ja" using the Google, but I have no idea what Ja means.... is that the number 5?

Well, it means nothing unless you are a Japanese FF player. Just like -ga, -ra, -da, -ja is used as a "tier" designator.
And yes, normally "ja" means nothing at all.
#41 Dec 06 2013 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:

There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".



You must not have leveled doh/dol. They are free to level, and DoH actually nets you a HUGE profit the entire time you are leveling it. DOL is even better, you just harvest 200 of every item, put 100 for sale and use the other 100 for your own crafting...done, profit made, 0 cost.

For DoH: Tripple hand in leves with HQ = lots of gil, and if you harvested everything yourself, its all 100% profit.


So there is no hidden cost unless you are buying raws/gear/finished products to hand in to level.
#42 Dec 06 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Easy fix. do like FFXI did and only show the history and not what people are selling for.. There will be undercutting but not nearly as bad...
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#43 Dec 06 2013 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
svlyons wrote:
There is also the hidden cost of the time, gil and effort that it took to level all DoH and DoL to 50 so he could do all of that "for free".

You must not have leveled doh/dol. They are free to level, and DoH actually nets you a HUGE profit the entire time you are leveling it. DOL is even better, you just harvest 200 of every item, put 100 for sale and use the other 100 for your own crafting...done, profit made, 0 cost.

For DoH: Tripple hand in leves with HQ = lots of gil, and if you harvested everything yourself, its all 100% profit.


So there is no hidden cost unless you are buying raws/gear/finished products to hand in to level.

I have lvl 50 WVR and lvl 50 LTH.

Time is money, and money is time. You can spend your time to save money. You can spend your money to save time. You can do a mix of both (which is what most people do). Spending time is still a cost. There's no such thing as free.
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#44 Dec 06 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Nashred wrote:
Easy fix. do like FFXI did and only show the history and not what people are selling for.. There will be undercutting but not nearly as bad...

I wish they had simply taken the FFXI AH system and tweaked it by not necessarily having the lowest priced item always sell first. Instead, I would have preferred if the oldest listed item that meets the buyers price had been the next to sell.

With FFXI, you could practically guarantee your item would be the next to sell by pricing at at just 1 gil, and would often get the full market price because people didn't always try bidding 1 gil. FFXIV is almost just as bad, since the most recent person to list their item can see all the asking prices and undercut by just a few gil. If you undercut by 2% of the lowest asking price, you're guaranteed to have the lowest buying cost regardless of which city the buyer is in. The newest seller shouldn't be at such an automatic advantage.
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#45 Dec 06 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have 8 level 50 classes... none of them can fight lol. I'm basically at the point where I need to level my WHM the 1/2 a level to 50 so I can start wearing the stuff I'm making for it. Believe it or not, some people play and craft just for because "I made that".

Keep in mind, not everything in the game is out today. Crafters are going to become even more important once housing begins, and new content is released later down the road. The one thing I keep coming back to is if crafting were really worthless, materia wouldn't sell.

As far as economics are concerned, it's hit or miss really. I have every thing leveled up so I usually just browse the boards, see what's selling and make some of it if I'm really hurting for cash.... which I never really am because i make/gather 90-95% of it on my own.

Regarding the time vs. money issue I look at it this way: Right now, gathering things is giving me xp for my gathering classes, so I'm really killing 2 birds with one stone. Sure, I spend money on tele-fees, but 2 swings on a cluster node pays for that. Right now, I try to gather as much of what I need as possible.

My goal is to try to position myself as best as I possibly can. I want to be able to have someone ask me: "hey can anyone...." and be able to answer "Yes, I can do that" every time. I'm building a big foundation and I can only hope it will allow me to build the best character I can.
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#46dustinfoley, Posted: Dec 06 2013 at 3:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Time is money is a fallacy, it assumes that you work to make money and is a flaw that you learn in most economic classes. Google 'cash flow quadrant'.
#47 Dec 06 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
Time is money is a fallacy, it assumes that you work to make money and is a flaw that you learn in most economic classes. Google 'cash flow quadrant'.

I don't need to google anything. I can do thinking for myself. You can spend your time to save money (harvesting ore yourself so you don't have to buy it), or you can spend money to save time (buy it so you don't have to harvest it yourself). You can exchange one for the other. Ergo, time is money, and money is time.
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#48 Dec 06 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
It's not just about reacting to the current price, but sensing the trend. If you always undercut, you'll never make as much as you could by taking advantage of a weakening supply.


Might be carry over from FFXI. I'd say I'm guilty of not making as much as I could and should have in Vana'diel, but I only had a handful of AH spaces to list and I didn't want stuff coming back to me in my dbox... the dbox already backed up with gear I mailed to myself because I don't have enough storage Smiley: sly
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#49 Dec 06 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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dustinfoley wrote:
Time is money is a fallacy...

I acknowledged that game economies aren't like RL economies, reasons like food not going bad, transportation, paying other employees, and then some. This certainly tricks people into think they can settle for less than their effort. However, what you're saying is that Opportunity Cost doesn't exist. Let me put it another way, why make 10k an hour when you could make 50k? Doing the former is using your time inefficiently, which may include gathering your own materials.
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#50 Dec 06 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Default
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Well u make the assumption that if you arent making money (in your words, the max possible money) while you are playing, you are wasting time/ being inefficent

If you run a dungeon, you arent making the max possible money, ergo you are wasting time and money right?

If you are doing a quest you arent making the max ammount of money, ergo you are wasting time/mony right?

Opportunity cost only means anything in a business, and your character isn't a business (unless you are a RMT).
#51 Dec 06 2013 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Your earning potential changes as your character levels and gear improves. I'm not so crudely robotic as to say if you're not making money 24/7, you're wasting time. What I'm saying is when you do sit down and decide to make money, you want to do it the best way you can. If could be mass producing ingots. It could be mining shards. It could be killing sheep for fleece. It could be SBing gear and AHing the materia. There are numerous ways, but there will always be a best way, even if it fluctuates between markets. And that's where versatility certainly helps.

Having fun while you're making money is not something any of us can personally price, however. On the other hand, not having fun while doing it certainly makes us wish to get the most bang for our buck. When you feel like a robot slogging away at the economy grind, those periods of low-profit or loss aren't very motivating. How blaise people are toward markets doesn't help, either.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 7:06pm by Seriha
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