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Do yourself a favor and [sort of] ignore the armory systemFollow

#1 Dec 06 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Last night I unlocked the achievement "A Life of Adventure" which means all DoW and DoM to 50 and I woke up this morning regretting it... (link to my Lodestone profile, it should update from last night shortly). I'm not a legacy player and started at ARR launch.

From my perspective the armory system is a trap, a poorly thought out quicksand that locks you into an inefficient gear progression path (assuming you have the time to get more than 300 myth per week). Let me explain. I realized that after leveling up a couple of synergistic jobs on one class that I should have rolled an alt that does a different role and leveled it instead of keeping on with the same character.

I got my tanks to 50, farmed some WP, AK and got Ifrit weapon (only only two pieces of DL to acquire for tanks) but then - wanting to be the best I can be - I decided to get my cross class skills before continuing, which turned into getting ALL the cross skills which turned into getting the title and crown before 2.1, which I did last night and now here I am. Yay...

So, needless to say I have a lot grind/farming ahead of me. And thinking about it, even though I did 204 dungeons and 2,451 fates to get to this point, it seems like a paltry, quick grind compared to when I think about gearing them all post-50.

As it stands, post 2.1 it will take two weeks two get 900 tomes required to complete each relic quest. That's 16 weeks - about four months - for all eight classes assuming cap every week and all tomes go to relics.

If I had ignored the armory and played FFXIV like every other MMO, basically one class per character (or even one role per character), I would be in a much better position then I am currently. If I had stopped after, say, four classes on my main and instead started an alt, it would cut the time needed to gear them in half.

e.g.

Player A - One Character with all eight classes at level 50

Player B - Two Character each with four unique classes at level 50 (8 total)

Player B will be able to finish its relics in half the amount of time, two relics every two weeks compared to Player A's one relic every two weeks. Besides being able to acquire myth tomes at twice the rate, Player B will also get a second coil lockout, a second piece of gear from CT, and another 300k gil through leveling/questing. Player B will have this advantage until Player A (who already has all 8 classes maxed) either rolls an alt or the level cap is raised.

So, in other words, barring Player A grinding yet another character/class to 50, Player B will have this advantage for the foreseeable future. All this in exchange for a few 26/34 cross class skills that Player B can grind out with fates in Quarrymill over a few hours during the time savings and the loss of the xp bonus on the alt's first 50. In fact, Player B only needs two characters each with a class at 50 and a level 15 subs to accrue 2x as many tomes as Player A who has all eight classes at 50.

Player A with eight classes at 50 on one character can only progress its characters at half the rate of Player B who only has two level 50 classes with level 15 subs, a main and an alt. Seriously, it all just seems broken and shortsighted to me.

Lots and lots of time saved between Player A and Player B and the only difference between them was that one ignored the armory gimmick and rolled an alt (like it would in any other MMO). And what does Player B get for ignoring the armory gimmick and taking a couple of extra weeks playing the game "like wow"? Rewards. Twice as many tomes per week, a second raid lockout, a second piece of gear per week from CT and 300k gil. And what does player A get for maxing all classes on one character? Pigeonholed into focusing on one of the classes and playing the game "like wow" if it expects to get anywhere at a decent clip.

I was thinking this could be countered by capping the myth per week based on the number of classes you have at 50, say if you have one class at 50 you get 450, two classes gets you 550, three gets you 600, etc. Not even a 100% increase (which is what an alt gets you), add diminishing returns like I did in the example, SOMETHING reminiscent of the xp bonus you get for lower level classes because right now the game encourages you to roll multiple classes to 50 then when you take the time to get them there you are c*ckblocked with the same myth cap as the players with one 50 and a single 15 sub. After you level classes with synergy that share gear together, e.g. pld/war, mnk/lnc, sch/whm there is little incentive to continue on that character after getting the level 26 or 34 cross skills.

So please, don't make the same mistake I did and get caught up in the armory gimmick. If you find yourself leveling another class that lacks synergy with your current role, then STOP IT AND ROLL AN ALT. Unless something changes then you'll thank me later. The armory system is supposed to be an alternative to alts but since you can double your myth cap by rolling an alt the old fashioned way it becomes counterproductive to level more than a few classes per character. You'll end up where I am, spending like the next year or so capping tomes when I could have rolled an alt and be done in half the time. The thought of doing the grind again makes me want scream as I claw the flesh off my face.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 5:22pm by KingoGoodbomber
#2 Dec 06 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Eh... I think you're taking it too seriously and should enjoy the convenience of having one character. You're neglecting the time it takes to finish the story for each character, and time spent leveling sub jobs and cross classes. It's more of a hassle.

And what would you do with all those relics? You can only go to a dungeon as 1 of them. Pick something and focus! (Seriously who wants to run DOULBE the amount of TOM dungeons each week?!?! boorrrinnggg)



Edited, Dec 6th 2013 5:28pm by Louiscool
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#3 Dec 06 2013 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
Eh... I think you're taking it too seriously and should enjoy the convenience of having one character. You're neglecting the time it takes to finish the story for each character, and time spent leveling sub jobs and cross classes. It's more of a hassle.

And what would you do with all those relics? You can only go to a dungeon as 1 of them. Pick something and focus!


Seconded.

I find that for whatever reason, people take the opportunity to level multiple jobs as a mandatory instead of just added freedom. I mean... it's your prerogative, but it sounds like it's going to lead to burnout. Might be different later on in the development of the game where you have events that you actually might use all those relic'd up jobs, but for now the choices are pretty slim.
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#4 Dec 06 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
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Louiscool wrote:
Eh... I think you're taking it too seriously and should enjoy the convenience of having one character. You're neglecting the time it takes to finish the story for each character, and time spent leveling sub jobs and cross classes. It's more of a hassle.

And what would you do with all those relics? You can only go to a dungeon as 1 of them. Pick something and focus! (Seriously who wants to run DOULBE the amount of TOM dungeons each week?!?! boorrrinnggg)



Edited, Dec 6th 2013 5:28pm by Louiscool

I'm not neglecting anything. Grinding content for six months when the grind can be completed in half the time is way more boring and inconvenient than spending an extra week skipping through the story to get an alt to 50 (while also gaining an extra 300k gil) instead of leveling on the main character. The time you lose from the lack of alt XP on your main is more than made up for in the foreseeable future when you are getting twice as much level 50 loot/tomes/lockouts per week. Get every combat class to 50 on the same character and you'll realize that you can gear them in half the time if you split the classes up among a couple characters and from this you should see that armory system is deeply flawed.

Armory is supposed to encourage people to level other classes on their main instead of alts and so that is what I did. Now I have eight classes to gear and one character to do it with, that's endgame and that's all I care about. I could have rolled one alt instead of leveling another class on my main, spent an extra week getting it to 50 due to story and no xp bonus and at the end I would get a 100% boost in tomes, lockout times, CT loot, etc. which makes gearing them for endgame go by twice as fast.
#5 Dec 06 2013 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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My point is that if you are going to level multiple classes and have the ability to farm more than 300 myth per week, are able to run coil twice, etc. then start an alt instead since you are bottlenecking progression on the main. Only 300 tomes get through a week for eight classes, whereas an extra week spent on an alt gets you 600 tomes through the bottleneck per week.

This is an MMO, the endgame objective is to collect loot efficiently and so the goal is "more faster = better". It's like the AT&T commercials with the little kids.

Or like checkout lanes at the grocery store. You have eight people waiting in line, each one has 10 items but the clerk can only check 3 items at a time before the register has to "cool down" for the rest of the hour. So the manager opens a second register and now six items can be checked out by the clerk in the same time span. This is more efficient if the people in line are grouped by type (e.g. healer, dps, tank) and sent tot he appropriate register. The clerk simply moves from one register to the other in between register cool downs.

It's much faster than making all eight people wait their turn at one register.

Describing a queue as a convenience only shuffles the order of the people in line. When it is all said and done, one register means only 3 items can be checked out per hour no matter how many people are in line and no matter how bored the clerk is waiting for the register to cooldown, if there is no second register to make transactions the only option is to sit around and wait (i.e. only log in on Monday).

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 6:12pm by KingoGoodbomber
#6 Dec 06 2013 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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I get what you're saying. Unfortunately some do not or refuse to acknowledge the problems the system and things like lockouts and other forms of gating invite. By its very nature, getting one job to its fullest potential with abilities requires a 50, 34, and at least a 15. It's pretty much a design to coax you into taking that 34 the rest of the way, then maybe the 15 since you started it.

It's sad when people try to claim the story is this huge dearth of content that anyone who dared to level multiple jobs must've rushed through and totally ignored. Story content actually tends to be one of the weakest facets of an MMO even though I do feel XI and XIV took it up a notch with their CS work. But it's still easy to read and quick to watch. The combat systems merely pad the time between digestion with updates serving as future supplements.

Meanwhile, reasonable people aren't going to demand max everything from strangers. These issues do inhibit the reasonable people, however. It's not that they consider them mandatory to enjoy the game, but a nice side dish to indulge in if they're able. Someone jealous someone else can play more? Them's the breaks, unfortunately. Content could have a higher replay value for everyone otherwise.
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#7 Dec 06 2013 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Eh... I think you're taking it too seriously

This.

And, let me add:
You get exactly *nothing* for grinding stuff in a game. So your argument about that one way to do it would be more efficient than the other, and how the system is broken is completely moot for all those of us who are not chasing after meaningless achievements. When you talk about

Quote:
Lots and lots of time saved between Player A and Player B


I really wonder what you are trying to tell us. Is playing this game so unpleasant for you that you feel the need to cut corners whenever possible? Do you play to... well, yes, i really wonder... for what do you play? Is it some sort of job for you? Or do you expect others to praise you for the dedication you are showing? Or do you want our pity because you fell for SE's evil armoury trap? Or do you want to warn us about unnecessarily wasting our time, when most of us actually enjoy what we are doing? Smiley: lol
#8 Dec 06 2013 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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P.S.:
Quote:
The thought of doing the grind again makes me want scream as I claw the flesh off my face.

Ever thought about, like "not doing it"?
I mean, you know you have a choice, right?
...
In case you feel you don't, I think it might be appropriate to get help.
#9 Dec 06 2013 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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By OP's logic, you should be rotating between 8 characters, not 2, so you can relic up completely in 2 weeks, and rotate 8 coil runs a week to keep them all geared.

Seems a bit excessive, but then again, I don't see why you would do 2 unless you really liked playing. If you're gonna do more than one, don't half-*** it (or in this case, quarter-*** it).
#10 Dec 06 2013 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
I get what you're saying. Unfortunately some do not or refuse to acknowledge the problems the system and things like lockouts and other forms of gating invite. By its very nature, getting one job to its fullest potential with abilities requires a 50, 34, and at least a 15. It's pretty much a design to coax you into taking that 34 the rest of the way, then maybe the 15 since you started it.

It's sad when people try to claim the story is this huge dearth of content that anyone who dared to level multiple jobs must've rushed through and totally ignored. Story content actually tends to be one of the weakest facets of an MMO even though I do feel XI and XIV took it up a notch with their CS work. But it's still easy to read and quick to watch. The combat systems merely pad the time between digestion with updates serving as future supplements.

Meanwhile, reasonable people aren't going to demand max everything from strangers. These issues do inhibit the reasonable people, however. It's not that they consider them mandatory to enjoy the game, but a nice side dish to indulge in if they're able. Someone jealous someone else can play more? Them's the breaks, unfortunately. Content could have a higher replay value for everyone otherwise.

You are so right... I got all classes to 26/34 and was like, meh... how bad can the grind from 34 to 50 really be?

I mentioned on the official forums how tome gain, lockouts, CT loot, all the activities and benefits at endgame grow geometrically based on the number of level 50 alts a player has, and that this undermines the armory system because leveling multiple classes on the same character gives almost no similar benefit, and zero benefit if there is no class synergy.

If maxing all classes is a goal (which the armory system promotes) then it's just way faster to ignore it, specialize a main in a role and level a couple alts for other roles. You have to level "alt" classes on each character and some may be redundant but it's basically just an evening of fate grinding in Quarrymill for a couple of skills. Story is not long and you get gil and lots of xp doing it and people spend way more time at level 50 where all the benefit are anyway. Months at 50 compared to weeks at 1-49. More jobs on the same character in the future just translates to smaller slices for the rest of the classes since the size of the pie is static. People with old fashioned alts get way more pie.
#11 Dec 06 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Default
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This game is totally schizo, it encourages you to level multiple classes on a character then it punishes you for doing so. it's literally a World Warcraft BC era clone with a fraction of the content and the FFXIV 1.0 armory shoehorned in. CT just reinforces its status as a WoW clone by punishing people who use the armory and rewarding those who roll old fashioned wow-style alts instead.

Instead of polishing Yoshi's knob and playing white knight bully orgy with your pals, get all your combat classes to 50 and think about gearing them out and you'll see for yourself how weak and flimsy ARR's design really is and how progression really is just an exact carbon copy bc wow clone that rewards people for playing FFXIV like wow with a half-assed armory thrown over it that punishes people for playing FFXIV the way they advertise it. Adding more classes will just make it worse.

#12 Dec 06 2013 at 7:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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You make an excellent point.

I'll just stick to my one character, but I can see the appeal in making alternate characters for faster progression.

With 2.1 coming out soon though, I think I'll be less frustrated with obtaining loot for my other jobs.

Edited, Dec 6th 2013 6:31pm by Kirby
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#13 Dec 06 2013 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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This definitely makes sense for maybe 2 chars max, I wouldn't do 8 separate. You still have to level 2 additional classes per job (some above 30 each) for cross classes. Also, if everyone in the FC had more than 2 chars they wouldn't have all of them in, so then you need additional FCs for alts, more friends to track etc... For tomes I totally get it. But I would just be furious if I was getting primal weapons on each alt that I don't need but all my other alts did. Sure, you're going for Relic... but with new content will it be as important?
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#14 Dec 06 2013 at 8:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Eh... depending on how you look at this, this way of thinking is somewhat flawed.

Gearing up characters will get significantly easier with each update.

Example... I've spent all of my time just gearing up my pld... but in running WP numerous times, I've acquired just about all of the level 55 jobs and weapons for all of the other jobs.

I've also been accumulating lots of Phil stones while I go after Myth stones... I already have enough for a couple of DL pieces for another job (in addition to lvl 55 gear).

After this patch, I'll start doing Crystal Tower with my FC. I will gear up my pld, and probably get some lvl 80 drops for other jobs, too. So, I'll improve my pld gear while also continuing to get gear for other jobs (and probably more stones).

Just by playing the content normally, I am slowly but surely accumulating gear that will let me tackle bigger challenges with other jobs as I level them. It's not a soul-sucking burden. I also really love developing a single character.. I have a hard time immersing myself in alts.
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#15 Dec 06 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Good
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To the op, your mistaken about a few points although they may have been typos.

Firstly, you need 900 philosophy tomes to make a relic weapon. Theres no cap on these so you can make as many relics as you want, as fast as you want. Mythology tomes are capped at 300 per week which are used for +1 relics and AF2 equipment. It would be extremely inneficient to gear up all jobs at once because of this cap, so pick one and gear it up then move on to the next. Allagan from coil will help fill slots too.

Secondly, no one is forcing you to gear up every single job you get to 50. If you want to, thats your problem and isnt a problem of the system itself. I know plenty of people who finished a job to 50 just because they leveled it for cross class but have no intention of using it for now. Personally, i have all the classes at 50 with darklight for all, but my main class is paladin, and my soon to be next is a healer class. Will i get ilvl 90 gear for all classes? Probably not. Mostly because i cant but ive chosen which classes those will be. My other classes are far from useless though. I can fill any spot on the fly as long as its not coil turn 3 or higher.

Lastly, nothing is stopping you from playing as if you could only level one job per character. If thats how you want to play, pick one class and forget the rest exist.
#16 Dec 07 2013 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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KingoGoodbomber wrote:
.
Instead of polishing Yoshi's knob and playing white knight bully orgy with your pals, get all your combat classes to 50 and think about gearing them out and you'll see for yourself how weak and flimsy ARR's design really is and how progression really is just an exact carbon copy bc wow clone that rewards people for playing FFXIV like wow with a half-assed armory thrown over it that punishes people for playing FFXIV the way they advertise it. Adding more classes will just make it worse.


Sorry, but i cant do that. Im too busy to enjoy this game. I have not time to worry about "not getting everything for everything in a small period of time". But i hope you can enjoy your way of experience. Wait... ah.... ok. I get it.

#17 Dec 07 2013 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think the OP is entirely mistaken.

Many of my FC members are actually on their 2nd and 3rd alts due to mythology caps and lockouts. We have an alt coil group, FFS.

Here are the two arguments that always play in mind when I think about this issue:


1) I should be able to gear up any job I wish at max level. I should not have a 'main' job. Why else would I level jobs to 50 if I'm not going to be able to play them in a raiding environment? Faster queue times, pretty much.

What if I got BLM to 50 and wasn't aware that spending these precious resources called tomes of mythology would lock me into that role? That's exactly what happened to me when I hit 50. However, I actually enjoy playing BLM so it's a non-issue for me. I know some that wish they had made better decisions.

On the other hand, I know plenty of people who do have an alternative job they can play that IS as geared as their main (or close) due to the randomness of Allagan drops. I know plenty of people who have alt jobs that are more geared than their main jobs due to the very same reason.

There is a contradictory nature of the mythology system. It says, "Pick a job and focus on it." while Coil's Allagan side says, "Some groups are going to get a lot of x loot for y job/role so anyone else who has that job at 50 will eventually get it. Some groups are not going to get any of x loot for z job/role so anyone with that job may be potentially undergeared compared to their 'alt' job."

Mythology: pick one job
Allagan: here's a bunch of loot for an assortment of jobs (with repeats); gear them all

What if one of my members decides to quit and they need me to play y job now instead of x job? Well, I just invested a lot of mythology into my 'main' and can't really pick up the slack like the person who left could with their gear. This actually happened to my FC leader 3 times. First, he was forced from WHM to SCH. Then, he was forced from SCH to BLM. Now, he's back to SCH. He has mythology spent across those three jobs and I'm sure he'd rather have just spent it on one.

If someone decides to quit your group and you now need to fill in for them because you leveled their job to 50 by chance, you do not have the resources to gear yourself as well as that person unless you are extremely lucky with Allagan drops.


2) You don't really need any better loot than a relic+1 and a mix and match of DL/crafted gear to tackle current content. Why stress over gearing out the other jobs?

This is generally what persuades me back in the other direction. Besides the relic+1 which can be a costly purchase, most of my other jobs can handle any of the content right now in full DL. IF I wanted to make one turn 5 ready, I could easily invest some money into it and get the required gear. Would it be as good as my group's 'main' healer or 'main' tank or 'main' *insert role/job here*? No, but you really do not need the best of the best to down this stuff. Generally, the relic+1 is what ties you to your 'main' job.

We are now approaching the point where people have been able to get multiple +1s if they spent their mythology only on relic weapons or one more +1 if they spent their mythology on their first +1 and some mythology gear.

Which leads you to another point: why do you even need to gear up another job if you can only really raid with one? Sure, maybe I'll switch to SCH for Titan or BRD for turn 2 but do those jobs really need the Omnilex+1/Allagan healing gear or any of the nice AF2 gear for BRD to be effective? No. I do just fine with just DL and a relic, generally.



These are the two sides that I am constantly conflicted about. Since there isn't much to do before the patch gets here, these types of arguments may go through your head when you're bored and feel like you can be doing something else.

But consider the following: this game is tailored to us in such a way that making an alt seems really unnecessary since one character can do it all, so to speak. At the same time, if you wish to have more than one main job, making an alt really is the only way you're going to pull that off: avoiding the mythology cap/lockout as well as being stuck to just one job.

I like the idea of an alt coil group but I have no desire to level another character from 1 to 50 and go through all of that again. So, my answer to this internal argument is generally, "Be patient because you can only do so much right now anyways."

Edit: Oh, I also neglected to include a hidden third point:

3) DL gear is ugly as ****.

...What?

Edited, Dec 7th 2013 5:57am by HitomeOfBismarck
#18 Dec 07 2013 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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OP: I see from your post that you are stating that the gear progression is "inefficient" but fail to acknowledge what an efficient player with alt(s) can do with the "saved time". I put the term in quotes because as far as the effort put in is concerned there is no saved time. Clearing content in four hours every week for six months versus clearing content in eight hours every week for three months equals the same effort spent to gearing up one's class(es).

Now, considering that depending on your playstyle the content cycle is set to be around six months (seven months for the first cycle) then it comes down to asking the question: "what added value do I get by gearing up before the content cycle moves forward?" However it needs to be noted that this question is only relevant as long as you can finish gearing up your class(es) in that timeframe. Making alts becomes more desirable based on the number of class(es) that you can not gear up in the six month timeframe.

To go back to the question the obvious extra value is that you can take part in the content with more than one class of equal strength. This is an important benefit as long as it matters to the individual that they perform to the best of their ability at all times, in every scenario. However the implicit loss of value here is that if you have geared up your relevant classes before the content cycle moves forward then there is little personal incentive for you to keep clearing said content. You may have to do so however due to the external pressure of your FC. If there are no such issues the individual can quit the game for the time being, saving few months' worth of sub fees in the process.

To put the issue in right perspective it needs to be looked into as to how many classes can an individual gear up in the six months timeframe until the cycle moves forward. Only then we can see exactly how handicapped the individuals who have made the decision to not enjoy playing the game with a class that has inferior performance while prioritizing one class above others in the gearing up hierarchy are as far as multiclassing is concerned.

Outside of that issue it only comes down to which playstyle you value more: spending less time each week for a longer cumulative time period while having an incentive up until the continuation of the content cycle vs. spending more time each week for a shorter cumulative time period while potentially having no incentive to do said content for a certain time period up until the continuation of the content cycle.
#19 Dec 07 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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I sorta see your point - if you take the game that serious and really work to min/max. Myself? I've picked a main and really am only going to worry about that "category" of job - caster DPS BLM and SMN. They sort of share gear except AF2, so its easy. I really wouldn't want to have multiple characters because I really play MMOs more for the social aspect and the story. Running WP/AK is hard enough for me to tolerate for 300 per week, even if it was unlimited I can only do a few runs and I'm tired of it. Doing double or triple the amount of runs doesn't sound like fun to me anymore - thats a second job.
#20 Dec 07 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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I have an alt - second paid account - in FFXI, but not for any of the reasons the OP listed. I have that second character because it was easy and fast to level it up as a white mage, and there's nothing handier than having a spare white mage on call at your fingertips.

That's pretty much the only reason I can see to run multiple characters in a game like XIV or XI where you have access to all the classes. If you want to be hardcore and insane and get all the classes to fifty AND trick them out, then you have more free time than the majority of us.

The alternative SE had to the gated content timers / max tome caps was to make the number you had to collect so prohibitively high that it would take three months of running them constantly to have enough, and then far more people would be locked out.
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#21 Dec 07 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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KingoGoodbomber wrote:
This game is totally schizo, it encourages you to level multiple classes on a character then it punishes you for doing so. it's literally a World Warcraft BC era clone with a fraction of the content and the FFXIV 1.0 armory shoehorned in. CT just reinforces its status as a WoW clone by punishing people who use the armory and rewarding those who roll old fashioned wow-style alts instead.

Instead of polishing Yoshi's knob and playing white knight bully orgy with your pals, get all your combat classes to 50 and think about gearing them out and you'll see for yourself how weak and flimsy ARR's design really is and how progression really is just an exact carbon copy bc wow clone that rewards people for playing FFXIV like wow with a half-assed armory thrown over it that punishes people for playing FFXIV the way they advertise it. Adding more classes will just make it worse.



you're in the wrong forums. go to bg, they all share your view. the game is only "punishing you" because of how you choose to approach it. ie, its probably not the game for you. so to recap: wrong forums, wrong game.
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#22 Dec 07 2013 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
I don't think the OP is entirely mistaken.

Many of my FC members are actually on their 2nd and 3rd alts due to mythology caps and lockouts. We have an alt coil group, FFS.

Here are the two arguments that always play in mind when I think about this issue:


1) I should be able to gear up any job I wish at max level. I should not have a 'main' job. Why else would I level jobs to 50 if I'm not going to be able to play them in a raiding environment? Faster queue times, pretty much.

And a giant snip.....


You're missing the point of the two systems. Tomes are meant as a protection against bad RNG from Coil runs, because RNG always carries the risk that a drop will never occur, regardless of how remote the chance. The main progression path is through high level dungeon content, not the tomes, which might be why tomes seem like a contradictory system to you. If people burn tomes grasping for every immediate sidegrade available as soon as they get them, they put themselves into the position you describe. SE didn't do this to you. SE would most likely argue that you should slow down and plan for problems later on, one way of many being starting alt characters for second coil runs but far from being the only or even most efficient way, so you don't burn forward too quickly and crash at the first sharp turn.

Which brings me to your tank dropping. That's a group problem, not a gear progression problem. SE doesn't need to, nor shouldn't, protect every group against something bad happening. If your tank quits, you find someone willing to reroll, regear them through crafts, runs, and if bad RNG is crippling him, tomes, or recruit a replacement that you'll have to recruit one way or another and potentially regear anyway. It's not SE's job to protect groups against group dysfunction. There are web series devoted to coming up with ways to keep raid groups flowing and functioning continuously regardless of any potential problem, so being limited by one person leaving is the result of poor planning, and little more. Your example in particular sounded more like a juxtaposition of wants and needs. We could continue to go down the path of "what if's" and "but for's", but that discussion would be less practically applicable than Nozick's Experience Machine.

Which lastly brings me here; time. You're arguing from the position that everything is needed now. The game isn't designed that way. The game is designed to take time, and is throttled specifically through tomes and lockouts to achieve that. You can not agree with that philosophy, and many people here on the boards or official boards do it every day, but that won't make it go away. Every single problem you come up with can be minimized or eliminated with the passage of time. Gearing up for most of Coil currently takes a week, so dropping a core member might set you back a couple weeks at most. You want that time investment to be removed, but it won't be. It's something the game was designed with, and for now at least, something that will continue. It's a conscious decision to limit character growth to extend the life of the game. There are other ways to do this, all with their own set of pros and cons, but SE chose this route, and in the absence of proper planning, you'll have to pay for speedbumps with additional time.

And yeah, DL gear is pretty nasty. But at least it's not a flower that made a sound every time I pulled it out, and legitimately took me a month before I realized where it was coming from.
#23 Dec 08 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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If that were the case, then the gear should have identical stats, yes? In some cases, they do actually have identical stats. In other cases, there is actually a "BiS" drop or BiS slot that is purchased.

The protection you speak of does not exist if you seek BiS items. You either can purchase the BiS item or you have to wait for it to drop. Purchasing the inferior option is a waste of tomes that could be spent gearing another job.

In fact, purchasing any tomes for an item that drops in coil with identical stats is a waste of tomes (see: BLM feet). It's something I actually I already did and sure enough we've seen two pair of boots the past two weeks.

Would I have liked to gear my other jobs with the 495 tomes I lost? Sure, but if you had read point #2, you would realize I always am able to reason my way out of internal arguments like that. Is my SCH actually requested in any coil runs we do? No. Does my group's SCH want to switch with me and play BLM while I play SCH? Yes, but that will come in time. Does my BLM really need anymore gear since everything has been downed already with what I'm currently wearing? No. Would it be nice to down things faster due to higher DPS attributed to better gear? Sure, that would be nice but the key is it's not needed.

It's really quite a nice smoke screen. I would agree with your points if the gear had identical stats all the way through. But, that would be a very boring system in which the developers acknowledged there is only one way to gear your character. On some classes, this is actually the case. On other classes like BLM, you are given 3 paths to choose from that are almost equally viable. Let's save that discussion for another post.

However, please don't mistake this given set of facts I'm presenting to you as counter arguments. This applies to only a few classes and one of them happens to be one I play.

I'm quite satisfied with the game and I wonder if you read point #2 at all. Time will fix everything for me and everyone else. I happen to have quite a bit of it at my disposal at the moment with winter break which is probably what prompts this feeling of anxiousness.

I always am reasonable when approaching this wall that prevents me from maxing out my characters (unlike the OP).

As for your argument about it not being SE's job to prevent group problems, I suppose that's the case. But this is one scenario they could have accounted for when designing this system instead of the perfect world where people are patient and stay put in one group. After all, many people have jumped server/left our coil groups yet the coil groups themselves are still running at near perfect efficiency. But, this is attributed to my FC leaders' past experience in MMOs. They accounted for people leaving: they actually have a good idea about people in current groups who they expect to leave in x number of weeks or months.

What about groups where they have leaders who are experiencing a MMO for the first time? I imagine the end result would not be so pretty.

Also to clarify a few points:

1) Our tank(s) has (have) actually never left. I'm sorry if my post gave the wrong impression. It has always been DPS that have left so far which are easy to replace. My post simply referenced a possible scenario (healer leaving, tank leaving).

2) I'm not arguing from a position of 'everything is needed now': that is actually what point #2 addresses. DL and a relic is plenty for turn 1-4. Maybe some crafted gear if you're feeling fancy. Turn 5 requires a little modification through crafted gear and a relic+1 for DPS is definitely helpful. I would say required for a majority of groups. However, this is the end of the content line: there is nothing else after that until the patch hits. I think turn 5 isn't something I'd consider when discussing this issue. Simply put, the gear we have at our disposal right now (philosophy items and a relic) is enough to handle turn 1-4 so there is no need to panic over not being able to max more than one job.

Edited, Dec 8th 2013 1:46am by HitomeOfBismarck
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