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so a funny thing happened to me while in AK today.Follow

#1 Dec 07 2013 at 12:49 AM Rating: Default
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I had a tank complain that my DPs was barely breaking 119 (which it probably was or wasnt) which was low especially for someone who had relic according to him... now heres the funny part.. I made a comment earlier on before that was brought up that my gampad had died thus everyone knew i was using a gamepad... so after the tank made his comment about my dps he says its because i m using a gamepad and should switch to mouse and keyboard then my dps will increase... lol.... soooo clicking icons dramatically increases my dps as opposed to just pushing buttons? yeah that logic sounds perfect. Anyone agree?
#2 Dec 07 2013 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Playing with mouse and keyboard =/= clicking buttons to activate abilities, many players (myself included) use keybinds.
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#3 Dec 07 2013 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Katchii wrote:
Playing with mouse and keyboard =/= clicking buttons to activate abilities, many players (myself included) use keybinds.


^ this

The reason KB/M gives you an advantage is because you have more buttons. Keybinding your abilities to these buttons is what makes it more efficient. If you only have 10 abilities to use then it's arguable whether or not KB/M will help you. For all encounters when you're using more abilities than that, KB/M is a better choice. Mouse allows you to move, turn and control the camera with one hand. Controller requires two(unless you have the somewhat wonky auto-follow camera enabled). I have 30+ keys in comfortable reach under the other hand on my keyboard. Controllers have 8 that are used commonly, but you could map to the select/start I guess. Even so, it's still far less than you have at your disposal with a keyboard. Couple that with the fact that you have to put down your controller and pick it back up after you type.

Before this spirals off course... it's a matter of preference whether you use a controller or not. It's completely reasonable that you're pulling your weight in an instance while using a controller. It's just easier to execute certain things that might be required with KB/M.
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#4 Dec 07 2013 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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How anyone plays on controller efficiently is beyond me. Yes, I know many people do, but as a keyboard/mouse player, I have to use a Naga in order to be efficient. As a PLD, I use all 12 binds on the Naga, as well as 8 additional from the keyboard. Having access to all those buttons while being able to move my character and the camera all simultaneously does not seem possible on a controler.

Edited, Dec 7th 2013 7:19am by SistinasAria

Edited, Dec 7th 2013 7:19am by SistinasAria
#5 Dec 07 2013 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I use a controller fine... For BLM and my DRG ppl with controllers can be just as fast if they are good with controllers... I'm terrible with key board and mouse. Your given choices to make what ever experience there is more comfortable to the player. For some of us controller is just more comfortable

OP I don't like when ppl tell ppl that my DD parse or w/e is or isn't good enough for them.... Did you kill the mob? Did you make a good effort and help killing so mob ? Did you win the Dungeon? If yes then what does all that other stuff matter ?
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#6 Dec 07 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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GCD diminishes the advantage of keyboards, I'd say. Yes, keyboards boast more potential buttons, but I also know how far my fingers can comfortably stretch is limited. This is also why most frequently used abilities should probably be 1-5. On the other end, I don't think we're at such a high ability bloat (like a mage in FFXI) that controller users should be drastically suffering, either. Maybe you need to work on your layout and rotation. 119 feels low relative to my BLM experience, but I also don't parse, so yay eyeballing.
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#7 Dec 07 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
GCD diminishes the advantage of keyboards, I'd say.


This sums up my experience fairly well. While the controller does have a limit on the number of buttons immediately available at any one time, I rarely have a need to access every ability in a split second. Add to that, that most big fights are in some way scripted, and it becomes much easier to anticipate having to use one of those not so easy to get to abilities or even alter your XHotbar accordingly.

Tough to say on the parser. Could be your layout or rotation, or it could be the parser. A lot of those things, to my knowledge, get weird sometimes.
#8 Dec 07 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
GCD diminishes the advantage of keyboards, I'd say. Yes, keyboards boast more potential buttons, but I also know how far my fingers can comfortably stretch is limited. This is also why most frequently used abilities should probably be 1-5. On the other end, I don't think we're at such a high ability bloat (like a mage in FFXI) that controller users should be drastically suffering, either. Maybe you need to work on your layout and rotation. 119 feels low relative to my BLM experience, but I also don't parse, so yay eyeballing.


With proper macros, I actually have extra buttons for my gamepad on PLD and BLM. PLD's close, with all those stupid cooldowns, but BLM has room to spare. You should be macroing anyway, since from every test I've done, you can chain more off GCD abilities together much more quickly than pressing the buttons alone.

I still go KB/M when I do serious runs, but I'd hesitate to say anything more than many more years raiding on KB/M makes me more efficient there than on a gamepad. The GCD is incredibly forgiving.
#9 Dec 07 2013 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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im 100% sure its my layout/rotation that sucks and not the fact im using a gamepad which is the part i find funny its even more apparent now that im wearing relic +1 and full dl the oh so "uber" gear everyone "needs" before they can do anything yet even with it i dont feel any stronget/my damage numbers arent noticeably bigger than when i was a fresh 50 in artifact with gc weapon i mean AK is a lvl 50 dungeon that drops il60 stuff yet i can do it in 45mins with a group of ungeared 50s then i should do it MUCH faster with a group of relic +1 and full dl with or witout some il90 gear right?


well with a group like that it takes about 40 mins. 35 being the fastest ive seen. so either gear doesnt make a huge difference like everyone makes it sound (when they wan geared only for xxxx event) or the groups im doing it with aredoing somthing horribly wrong?
#10 Dec 07 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
I use a controller with macros and it's just as efficient as keyboard. For myself, it's probably more efficient, I can scroll through everything much faster. I've tried both, and I can definitely hammer out bigger numbers on controller. On pc with controller, you can still have hotbars on the side to see your 2nd page cooldowns, so for something like perfect balance on mnk, I'll put on another bar. Once I see that's it's available, quick R2, hit it and back.

I've actually run into several healers now in Coil (successful turns) who use controllers too and say it's much easier. Whatever works for you to optimize your play is what matters, some people can hammer out keys on a keyboard with no issues, others can navigate a controller with more ease, so whatever works. I always check my parses, it's on par or better than most, so I'm not too worried.
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#11 Dec 07 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Default
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sooo anyone gonna comment on my last post? as for my bad rotation it goes as follows: keep fists of fire up at all times and internal release whenever its ready. stand behind mob. bootshine > true strike > touch of death > demolish > move to side of mob > dragon kivk > tein snakes > move back behind mob then repeat from beginning

i throw in an iternal release stacked howling fist every now and then when there a big pull to hit multiple mobs in the crowd.



so anyone with tips on how to improve that, please feel free to share them
#12 Dec 07 2013 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
sooo anyone gonna comment on my last post? as for my bad rotation it goes as follows: keep fists of fire up at all times and internal release whenever its ready. stand behind mob. bootshine > true strike > touch of death > demolish > move to side of mob > dragon kivk > tein snakes > move back behind mob then repeat from beginning

i throw in an iternal release stacked howling fist every now and then when there a big pull to hit multiple mobs in the crowd.



so anyone with tips on how to improve that, please feel free to share them


There's multiple guides for optimal rotations out there, http://www.ffxivrealm.com/guides/monk-dps-guide-v2.14/ like this for example.

What a lot of people fail at is the timing and realizing things like Internal Release don't share the same timer as other atks. So if IR or Blood for blood (get it if you don't have it) become available to use, don't wait for your atk to completely finish before using it. As the animation is ending you can pop either, and go straight into your next combo atk. Stuff like howling fists are similar, can hammer it in the middle of a combo.

It makes it seem like you're constantly doing something, so your char is never sitting still. You often know someone's rotation is meh when they have full tp all the time. The same can be said for brd, your almost always unloading something if playing right.
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#13 Dec 08 2013 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
GCD diminishes the advantage of keyboards, I'd say. Yes, keyboards boast more potential buttons, but I also know how far my fingers can comfortably stretch is limited. This is also why most frequently used abilities should probably be 1-5. On the other end, I don't think we're at such a high ability bloat (like a mage in FFXI) that controller users should be drastically suffering, either. Maybe you need to work on your layout and rotation. 119 feels low relative to my BLM experience, but I also don't parse, so yay eyeballing.


MMO gaming mouse.
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#14 Dec 08 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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seems that guide works. im seeing a lot more 550-600 dmg ws now and stuff in AK is dying before i can even get 6 attacks off let alone actually finishing the rotation
#15 Dec 08 2013 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
soooo clicking icons dramatically increases my dps as opposed to just pushing buttons? yeah that logic sounds perfect. Anyone agree?


I hope you don't click your icons. As a DPS, you can easily get away with a gamepad over something like a keyboard. My BLM probably takes 2 rows of hotkeys and my BRD even fewer.

However, GL playing other jobs that require a ton of keys:

Khornette wrote:
Seriha wrote:
GCD diminishes the advantage of keyboards, I'd say. Yes, keyboards boast more potential buttons, but I also know how far my fingers can comfortably stretch is limited. This is also why most frequently used abilities should probably be 1-5. On the other end, I don't think we're at such a high ability bloat (like a mage in FFXI) that controller users should be drastically suffering, either. Maybe you need to work on your layout and rotation. 119 feels low relative to my BLM experience, but I also don't parse, so yay eyeballing.


MMO gaming mouse.


because this is pretty much what it boils down to. In 11, WoW, etc, I never had to even think about purchasing a MMO mouse because I could just barely fit all my abilities in given the bindings available to me. SCH is the first job where I ran out of keys and broke down to buy one.

http://i.imgur.com/VUUqna6.png

The upper row indicates keys that are bound to the numpad. These numpad buttons are used by the mouse (it has 12 total buttons on the side) to execute actions. Even some of the keybinds I have are very awkward reaches for me (like surecast is ctrl + Q).

Considering this game actually places heavy emphasis on using almost all the abilities you learn from level 1 to max level for pretty much every job, you're going to need a lot of keys depending on the job. A gamepad will not be sufficient for something like SCH. I imagine if they ever implement macros for fairy abilities and allow us to actually use commands correctly when it comes to pets, the number of keys SCHs use will decrease dramatically. Until then...

You would always see these types of discussions in games like Left 4 Dead or any game where you had access to a controller or a keyboard/mouse. I highly recommend going to look at some of the research people have done regarding this great debate.

Edited, Dec 9th 2013 12:04am by HitomeOfBismarck
#16 Dec 08 2013 at 11:52 PM Rating: Default
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Every job need lotsa keys. I main DRG and I need lots of hotkey to weave abilities to maximise DPS, and macro won't help because it's rather reactive to the situation. And considering that I rarely use the DRG related ability at all, and I steal aggro a lot in Turn 4 from BRD/BLM FYI.
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#17 Dec 09 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Well i gotta stay its all preference.

As a tank, i regularlly prest 123 123 123 123 (agro combo)
Sometimes i press 145 flash combo for ae wp sr groups

You need a grand total of 3 buttons, then i just click w/e defensive cool down i need.

Clicking doesnt really matter, its all preference just like game pad vs kb/m. If you practice it enough you will be just as good.

And for anyone who dislikes game pads... go try DoL with one, this game was built for DoL to use a game pad. X x x x x x x x x x x (target node, harvest same item 430430450245 times, rinse repeat). I actually bought a game pad because i wanted to give it a try, the only thing i use it for though is DoL now, but that is my preference.
#18 Dec 09 2013 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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On a second note... as a tank i usally dont care what my DD are doing. As long as they are doing more DD than me.

When you do DF you get what you paid for though, and sometimes you get i40 weapon dd with af armor and i30 gc jewlry. I dont wanna seem like a dbag, but if vote kick would have been an option this drg would have been the first person i booted solely based on gear. An i50 weapon, and hq i49 jewlry isn't hard to get/expensive. **** you get better gear from dungeons on the way to the 50 cap.

I usually ignore DPS and just look at total dmg done.

On the first boss in WP for example.
Me (pld relic +1, gryphon accessories) - sword stance ~25k (shield stance 20K)
r+1 - 35-40k
r dd - 30-35k
i55 dd - ~25k
i50 dd - 20
i40 dd - 12k

Thats the general scale i use. Obviouslly if i have 2 relic +1 dd with me, i expect them to both do 35kish and me to do less because it dies faster, and if i have 2 i40s i expect me to do more.
#19 Dec 09 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tank requires a load of icons (2 rows on my controller).
My Black Mage has a normal set of icons (with LB, manawall, and sleep added) and a BC set of icons (with those listed replaced by Virus, Thunder II, and a specialty macro to let others know when I pass rot). I doubt that I would need more than one row for my blm to be more effective.

But I feel like my camera control is much better on a controller because I have been playing console games over PC games all my life. Play what you are used to, bottom line.
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#20 Dec 09 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I play on both keyboard and mouse and gamepad, depending on what job I'm going to be. I find crafting is easier on keyboard as I can have all my abilites together. Where as on my Dragoon and Bard I prefer a gamepad as I have everything very quick (in fairness I macro my three main combos on drg to a button each).

#21 Dec 09 2013 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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SistinasAria wrote:
How anyone plays on controller efficiently is beyond me. Yes, I know many people do, but as a keyboard/mouse player, I have to use a Naga in order to be efficient. As a PLD, I use all 12 binds on the Naga, as well as 8 additional from the keyboard. Having access to all those buttons while being able to move my character and the camera all simultaneously does not seem possible on a controler.


I'll tell you how I manage on a controller.

High priority or frequently used skills are bound to the gamepad's main button schematics. This forces me to prioritize an initial sixteen above all others. This will expand to 24 once we get the combination button presses, in the meanwhile, my L1 (default R 1, but i inverted it.) button switches to a secondary primary set. It's a quick swap, but the changes to the way the controls work in 2.1 will be faster.

For situations in which I require more keys than this, the lower priority scale is on a normal hotbar tied to keyboard keys. My keyboard is normally situated close, and the keys I uses are typically bound without need of Ctrl, Alt or any combination, it's as simple as tapping my finger on the keyboard, I do not even need to let go of the controller, depending how I am sitting.

The result for me is a control scheme that is versatile and smooth without sacrificing my wrists on the keyboard and mouse configuration.

The only difficulty I have is maneuvering pets as an Arcanist class due to the way the controls work with a Gamepad in moving them. Everything else is fine for me.
#22 Dec 10 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Your ability rotation and gear determines your DPS.

How you input the commands does not.

With enough practice, you can enter the exact same rotation of abilities with a gamepad that you can with a Keyboard + Mouse. The global cool down ensures this. I suggest reading you job specific forums for DPS ability rotation tips before changing from your preferred hardware.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 11:52am by Gnu
#23 Dec 10 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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TheAnf wrote:
I play on both keyboard and mouse and gamepad, depending on what job I'm going to be. I find crafting is easier on keyboard as I can have all my abilites together. Where as on my Dragoon and Bard I prefer a gamepad as I have everything very quick (in fairness I macro my three main combos on drg to a button each).



Can you please put your Dragoon macros here so I can make some too? That sounds so much easier, I'm on a PS3.

Thanks!

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 4:19pm by Hairspray
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#24 Dec 11 2013 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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My advice is to put multiple moves into a macro. At level 10 PUG, I use 2 buttons, period.

First button is Second Wind, this is separate for obvious reasons. Second button is a macro, the one I spam:
Attack/Buff wrote:
/micon "Snap Punch"
/ac Haymaker <t>
/ac "Snap Punch" <t>
/ac "True Strike" <t>
/ac Bootshine <t>
/ac Featherfoot <me>
/ac "Raging Strikes" <me>

Haymaker will always fire if I just dodged an attack.

After that, the Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch combo fires in order.

I can use Featherfoot and Raging Strikes if I hit the macro during a punch cool down, or when I'm not targeting a mob (or it's out of punch range) and the timer is up.

I also set up a horizontal hotbar right above the middle of the screen, I use it on all jobs to view recasts. I keep all the above abilities in there.

I would suggest making 3 move combos, and putting each into it's separate macro like the one above, buffs optional. You'll probably have a standard one, one for AoE attacks, One Ilm Punch, etc. You can also double up your stuns into one macro, just make sure to put both on the recast viewing hotbar to keep track of which one is up at any time.

You can also use your keyboard with your controller, I keybind the F1-F12 keys for things that aren't used very often, but still used.
#25 Dec 12 2013 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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stouter wrote:
My advice is to put multiple moves into a macro. At level 10 PUG, I use 2 buttons, period.

First button is Second Wind, this is separate for obvious reasons. Second button is a macro, the one I spam:
Attack/Buff wrote:
/micon "Snap Punch"
/ac Haymaker <t>
/ac "Snap Punch" <t>
/ac "True Strike" <t>
/ac Bootshine <t>
/ac Featherfoot <me>
/ac "Raging Strikes" <me>

Haymaker will always fire if I just dodged an attack.

After that, the Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch combo fires in order.

I can use Featherfoot and Raging Strikes if I hit the macro during a punch cool down, or when I'm not targeting a mob (or it's out of punch range) and the timer is up.

I also set up a horizontal hotbar right above the middle of the screen, I use it on all jobs to view recasts. I keep all the above abilities in there.

I would suggest making 3 move combos, and putting each into it's separate macro like the one above, buffs optional. You'll probably have a standard one, one for AoE attacks, One Ilm Punch, etc. You can also double up your stuns into one macro, just make sure to put both on the recast viewing hotbar to keep track of which one is up at any time.

You can also use your keyboard with your controller, I keybind the F1-F12 keys for things that aren't used very often, but still used.


Just want to point out:
Only Monk can use a spam macro with a 3 move combo in it, because the stance restrictions prevent the first move from activating with every press of the macro. It doesn't work like this for Bard or Dragoon.


#26 Dec 13 2013 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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I was having issues dodging stuff and moving around easily - FC were the ones who encouraged me to switch to a controller and things improved massively. Just have to think a lot more about what you prioritise and what you put on secondary bars - I tend to use a hybrid of keyboard for infrequently used stuff and PS3 controller for the buttons I'm hammering constantly. It's whatever works for you really. People will use any criteria to mark themselves as "above" other players - PS3 v PC, controller v keyboard, keyboard v mouse clicking, lalafell v cat....
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