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IS THIS the current state of mmo's too?Follow

#1 Dec 10 2013 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I remember a whole ago when we had a discussion about how MMOs used to have explorable none instanced dungeons, and how progression took a lot longer was more harder and as such seemed more rewarding when you finally DID complete it (examples being CoP in FFXI prenerf and obtaining relic in FFXI as opposed to XIVs relic), with super rare items that were either so rare pr so hard to get that youd be lucky if you saw 10% of the players on the server with them (i.e nothing of which fits that description in FFXIV)

and basically everyone response summed up too, that was old and archaic and not how mmos are done now... that was the old way and will never be seen again and this is the new way (which in a random note I figured elder scrolls online would "save" the genre by going back to some of the old ways... I was saddened to find out a game known for its VAST worlds and exploration will have instanced dungeons too..)

Anyway I new conversation came up at work yesterday regarding FFXIV (yup 755 of us at work play ffxiv and mmos in general yet like none of us are on the same server lol) I made a comment along the lines of "I remember when MMOs used to have ACTUAL NEW content" (for example in FFXI sky, sea, dynamis, limbus, einherjar, salvage, assault, etc etc) as opposed to "new" content just being harder versions of preexisting content and calling it "new" (i.e ifrit.garuda/titan normal/hard and now EXTREME.. what next... ultra? then super saiyajin? lol) or copperbell mines and hakkue manor hard... aside from treasure hunt and crystal tower and wolves den the rest is just hard versions or old stuff (dont say duty roulette as thats more of a new feature not new content)


but anyway back on point.. his reply was, "thats the new state of MMOs, now, recycling/rehashing old content. Even WoW does it" to which I say "I would expect that from an F2P mmo but one that has a million ppl paying 15 bucks a month surely they can afford REAL new content. After all content is what separates a P2P from an F2P mmo.. just look at how "often" GW2 and DC universe online get new stuff. If rehashed old content is what I wanted I can get that from DCUO free and not pay a dime" but he instsist that thats just the way MMOs are now... sooo you guys tell me.. Is he corrrect or incorrect?
#2 Dec 10 2013 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe you haven't had a chance to check out the previews, but the next patch is adding quite a bit of brand new content besides just the couple of additional difficulty levels for some current content.

We're getting the game's first raid instance, a new light party instance, a new primal battle, new pvp system, and new player housing too. None of which is in the game currently.

I'm not sure how you group plays, but I still feel a sense of accomplishment every time we clear a turn of coil. Well, maybe not the third turn, but every other turn.

Sky and Sea didn't just happen in the first major patch after game release. It was years and multiple paid expansions later before they introduced all the content in XI.

Lots of people think they're nostalgic for the old grind of FFXI/EQ and even early WoW, but that system sucked even then. Who really wants to spend another week of their life camping an NM for 1% drop rates, when you can play games where you actually accomplish things.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 1:19pm by DomfranciscoOfIfrit
#3 Dec 10 2013 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Anyway I new conversation came up at work yesterday regarding FFXIV (yup 755 of us at work play ffxiv and mmos in general yet like none of us are on the same server lol) I made a comment along the lines of "I remember when MMOs used to have ACTUAL NEW content" (for example in FFXI sky, sea, dynamis, limbus, einherjar, salvage, assault, etc etc) as opposed to "new" content just being harder versions of preexisting content and calling it "new" (i.e ifrit.garuda/titan normal/hard and now EXTREME.. what next... ultra? then super saiyajin? lol) or copperbell mines and hakkue manor hard... aside from treasure hunt and crystal tower and wolves den the rest is just hard versions or old stuff (dont say duty roulette as thats more of a new feature not new content)

Sky: part of a new expansion
Sea: part of a new expansion
Dynamis: not sure if this was part of Zilart or not
Limbus: part of a new expansion
Einherjar: part of a new expansion
Salvage: part of a new expansion
Assault: part of a new expansion

See the pattern? I'm trying to think of FFXI content that was added but wasn't part of an expansion. The ones I can think of were rather lackluster, stuff like Fields of Valor. New content that was added without being a part of an expansion was basically just new activities within existing zones. As such, was that really any different than Extreme Mode Primals or HM Copperbell/Haukke? Even BCNMs were just new mobs in an existing battle field, which is basically the same thing that we're getting with HM Copperbell and Haukke.
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#4 Dec 10 2013 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is a big difference between a patch and an expansion. Tu'lia was part of an expansion, you see. I wonder what would happen if you were to look at 11 before RotZ. What would you find?

This 'patch' probably is about a fourth/half of what an expansion would be...which is pretty impressive since they're giving it to you for free.

I'm not a big fan of rehashed content but I actually enjoy the primal battles. Titan was the first roadblock I've met in a while playing a MMO. Having something more difficult to aim for is really what we need at the moment.

I think they changed up Haukke Manor quite a bit from the looks of it. I love the music, alone, but they seem to have retextured a lot, added things into the boss fight, etc.

Your post's content is something I thought about for a few seconds after I first heard about 'extreme' primals. But, since that isn't the focus of this patch, I wasn't too concerned.
#5 Dec 10 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I believe that we will see actual new content but it will be further down the road in an expansion. 2.1 is a large patch but it is still a patch and not an actual expansion. It certainly has some new content and some that is 'upgraded' rehashing of existing stuff. Most of the new stuff in 2.1 is, well not 'fluff' but not brand new progression content. I think the hard mode dungeons and extreme mode primals are there just to keep those of us who have completed most everything else busy until 2.2.

I am hoping against hope we eventually get an expansion that includes more openworld content. I wrote about it years ago how I don't mind instanced content when it is a trial balanced to challenge a player or a party. Much of the feeling of adventuring is lost when you can just tele 2 minutes from everywhere and anything worth doing is done in a 4-8 man instance that up queue up for in duty finder.

That and half of the BIS equipment is easily farmable if you play for a few hours a couple times a week. Even Relic +1 is commonly seen. Having all the relics isn't even rare. Also we all look the same. I would kill for a long questline or rare mob spawn that would drop something that was a side grade but visually striking as long as it was rare.

My dream expansion would be a vast new continent where tele crystals were rare and you needed a party to even travel somewhat safely to get to a fate or dungeon entrance. The dungeon itself would be openworld with NMs and such but also contain instanced battles to test your party. Then in 6 months or a year or whatever let us quest to build new teleport crystals and when the new expansion hits nerf the whole thing so everyone who wasn't up to the challenge can enjoy it.

I know its not going to happen since so many people would hate it but I can dream.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 1:30pm by Yelta
#6 Dec 10 2013 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Duo obviously stopped playing FFXI before they introduced:

- Neo Nyzul Isle (hard mode)
- Salvage II (hard mode)
- Ultima and Omega (hard mode)
- Arch Dynamis Lord (DL hard mode)

Heck, I think we just got Hard Mode BCNMs in the last patch in XI.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 1:44pm by Catwho
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#7 Dec 10 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played DCUO for 2 years and was a legendary subscriber (Not F2P) the entire time... and trust me when I tell you they rehashed the same content over and over as well...

It's the same with all MMO's.



Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:03pm by Hairspray
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#8 Dec 10 2013 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
Remember that time, in Everquest, when you had to wait weeks, maybe months.. to catch that 1 spawn for your epic, that was usually perma camped? The one that would take most people 1 hit to kill?

That's why we have a new state of MMO's.
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#9 Dec 10 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Default
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Dyadem, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Remember that time, in Everquest, when you had to wait weeks, maybe months.. to catch that 1 spawn for your epic, that was usually perma camped? The one that would take most people 1 hit to kill?

That's why we have a new state of MMO's.



i actually liked that tbh lol.. if i had to wait months to get something maybe only 49 other ppl on a server for 5000 had.. then Im all for it
#10 Dec 10 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Duo obviously stopped playing FFXI before they introduced:

- Neo Nyzul Isle (hard mode)
- Salvage II (hard mode)
- Ultima and Omega (hard mode)
- Arch Dynamis Lord (DL hard mode)

Heck, I think we just got Hard Mode BCNMs in the last patch in XI.

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 1:44pm by Catwho



oh gawd tell me youre joking.. yeah i stopped long before that bt even if those exist there probably within new content (i.e abyssea) even then FFXI got 7-8 years of REAL new content before the hard mode rehashes started sooo I dont see an issue in that case
#11 Dec 10 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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Hairspray wrote:
I played DCUO for 2 years and was a legendary subscriber (Not F2P) the entire time... and trust me when I tell you they rehashed the same content over and over as well...

It's the same with all MMO's.



Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:03pm by Hairspray



i know DCUO hjas rehashed content galore... but that game is also F2P and like they ssay "you get what you pay for" so in that games case I understand and expect it... in an P2P game however.. I do not
#12 Dec 10 2013 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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You know, things like CoP weren't all that great in FFXI. Remember that data SE released that said a depressingly low percentage of players actually completed that content? That's not good game design, that's ensuring that your playerbase never expands beyond "hard core" and those who like the series\their friends enough not to care that they can't see content.

There is going to be some degree of repetition in a game. There will always be an antagonist with some chip on his\her shoulder, and you will always have to go through xyz to get to that fight. The fight mechanics are always fresh, though, and map design is seldom reused unless it's related to an earlier instance. If what your friend is talking about is the inclusion of older dungeons in 5 man heroic mode, that's there because the players actually asked for it. So yes, this expansion we got to see Sholomance, Scarlet Halls, and Scarlet Monastery again alongside the five other brand new dungeons. They did the same thing last Xpac with Deadmines (much to everyone's... amusement\frustration).

As long as blizzard keeps the current balance of old content reuse and new content release (and there was wayyyy more new content than recycled) I don't really see the issue. Square will likely do the same thing as well once XIV has the base to pull from. Heck, they could probably even dip further into XI's stuff as time goes on and more people migrate to the new one.
#13 Dec 10 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
You know, things like CoP weren't all that great in FFXI. Remember that data SE released that said a depressingly low percentage of players actually completed that content?

Except nothing else ever gave me quite as much satisfaction to complete each and every step. From building the parties to executing the fights well. The amount of preparation involved in making sure you were appropriately geared for your level cap and obtaining the best food and items to get you through the fight. Modifying the strategy since I had a non-optimum set of classes alone was a struggle and a triumph.

The rush of pulling off a win and taking that first step into new zone... Literally brought tears to my eyes.

Then doing it again to get friends through :D

Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:45pm by Yelta
#14 Dec 10 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Anyway I new conversation came up at work yesterday regarding FFXIV (yup 755 of us at work play ffxiv and mmos in general yet like none of us are on the same server lol) I made a comment along the lines of "I remember when MMOs used to have ACTUAL NEW content" (for example in FFXI sky, sea, dynamis, limbus, einherjar, salvage, assault, etc etc) as opposed to "new" content just being harder versions of preexisting content and calling it "new" (i.e ifrit.garuda/titan normal/hard and now EXTREME.. what next... ultra? then super saiyajin? lol) or copperbell mines and hakkue manor hard... aside from treasure hunt and crystal tower and wolves den the rest is just hard versions or old stuff (dont say duty roulette as thats more of a new feature not new content)

Sky: part of a new expansion
Sea: part of a new expansion
Dynamis: not sure if this was part of Zilart or not
Limbus: part of a new expansion
Einherjar: part of a new expansion
Salvage: part of a new expansion
Assault: part of a new expansion

See the pattern? I'm trying to think of FFXI content that was added but wasn't part of an expansion. The ones I can think of were rather lackluster, stuff like Fields of Valor. New content that was added without being a part of an expansion was basically just new activities within existing zones. As such, was that really any different than Extreme Mode Primals or HM Copperbell/Haukke? Even BCNMs were just new mobs in an existing battle field, which is basically the same thing that we're getting with HM Copperbell and Haukke.




fine then.. you make a valid point. we'll have this conversation again when an expanion does hit (which im hoping is at the end of the year of 2014 lol.. after all ffxi got them yearly) te only point you made that is lacking however is while all that stuff is from an expanion they werent in the expansion day one out of the box.. they were added overtime via content PATCHES (that were free)... for example while Sea and Limnbus required CoP... Sea was accessible far before limbus..... Also Zilart was boxed with the EU and US relases of FFXI.. though dynamis didnt exist on day one... that also came later... point is if dynamis and limbus cold be added via patch why would we have to wait for an expansion to see the likes of such things?


And even then FFXI pre expansions still had a slight bit more things to do (and a bigger world) than FFXIV.. I mean aside from lvling jobs/classes what else is there to do on FFXIv endgame aside from:

AK/WP
Coils
maybe arm primals for weapons


thats three things... 1 o which can only be done (technically) once a week so after you get that done in a few hours you have the rest of the day plus 6 more days in hat week where a 3 thing list is now a 2 thing list. Please tell me im missing something.

At least camping those bad drop ate having overcamped Nms would give you something to do for the rest of the weke until coils and myth tome cap (which i honestly thing should be done away with entire;y) reset. Or make more group based content (i.e change the none dungeon related story and job quests from solo to group) so you can help out newbies while you have nothing better to do for the rest of the week
#15 Dec 10 2013 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Dyadem, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Remember that time, in Everquest, when you had to wait weeks, maybe months.. to catch that 1 spawn for your epic, that was usually perma camped? The one that would take most people 1 hit to kill?

That's why we have a new state of MMO's.

i actually liked that tbh lol.. if i had to wait months to get something maybe only 49 other ppl on a server for 5000 had.. then Im all for it

Walking 6 miles through snow uphill both ways might be your idea of fun. Don't be surprised that you're probably in the minority.

DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
fine then.. you make a valid point. we'll have this conversation again when an expanion does hit

You make it sound like "wait and see" is something you only do grudgingly.
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#16 Dec 10 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Default
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Torrence wrote:
You know, things like CoP weren't all that great in FFXI. Remember that data SE released that said a depressingly low percentage of players actually completed that content? That's not good game design, that's ensuring that your playerbase never expands beyond "hard core" and those who like the series\their friends enough not to care that they can't see content.



your friends can see that content.... its as simple as helping them get through it? or maybe when its 5 years old theyll dumb it down and or uncap it so those ppl who couldn't get through it can do it now.


Theres nothing better than the sens of joy/accomplishment (and relief) that washes over you after youve beaten an enemy youve lost too about 50 times (every promyvion fight lol), even more so knowing you did it without the optimal/"required" setups as a big "f you" to ppl who shout and claim you NEED certain jobs to do xxx. Sure certain jobs may have mad my 50 attempt fight only take 5 but the fact of the matter was they werent NEEDED if in the end it got done without. (especially since everyone in my group refused to lvl jobs they didnt care about just to us once to make certain content easier... especially in FFXI where you couldnt lvl a job from 1 to lets say 50 in a matter of hours pr days at the time... that would meant spending weeks if not months redoing... when that time coulda been spend redoing the fight and coming up with plans/strategies that worked for us lol).


I mean you ever beat a boss in demon/dark souls (which no one complains about that game being too hard core in fact ot gets PRAISED for it... and considering its getting sequels it must be making enough money off ppl to do so which means its hard coreness isnt alienating a substantial amount of ppl that only a small handful are buying it... otherwise theyd dumb it down to appeal to a broader audience to make more money right? infact they do the opposite they set out the make the sequels HARDER than what came before it lol) after getting your *** handed to you multiple times only to finally beat it and get the feeling, that the ONLY reason you pulled through is because you used every ounce of your skill, and concentration and the game wanst gonna let you get passed without giving anything less than your 100%. I love that feeling of accomplishment.

But anyway this thread isnt about hard content vs easy this is about brand new content vs rehashed old content
#17 Dec 10 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
You know, things like CoP weren't all that great in FFXI. Remember that data SE released that said a depressingly low percentage of players actually completed that content? That's not good game design, that's ensuring that your playerbase never expands beyond "hard core" and those who like the series\their friends enough not to care that they can't see content.


Yeah this is what a lot of people don't understand. These "take forever", "gated to ****", and other mindlessly pointless restrictions don't inspire people to engage in content and if they're not actively engaging in content you put out (or you've purposely attempted to make it so difficult/frustrating that they don'e even bother trying anymore) then they don't play, and you don't get their money.

For all the hype the story gets (I preferred WotG's as it's more emotionally stimulating if you actually finish the whole thing), CoP didn't really add anything useful to the game. The zones were, except for CLanding, Bibiki Bay, and the Isle, gated behind missions but didn't really give the common person a reason to go after. A good handful of them were level capped and not suited to level in due to monster choices and parties just went back to normal leveling/meriting areas until ToAU launched with squishy Tucan Sams.

And a lot of people forget that. WotG wasn't a terrific expansion either but at least there were several areas parties would form up for fairly regularly with no gating at all, whereas CoP purposely went out of the way to be annoying for not real reward.

Torrence wrote:
As long as blizzard keeps the current balance of old content reuse and new content release (and there was wayyyy more new content than recycled) I don't really see the issue. Square will likely do the same thing as well once XIV has the base to pull from. Heck, they could probably even dip further into XI's stuff as time goes on and more people migrate to the new one.


Plus, FFXIV is also at an advantage in that it has a ton of games to pull from in terms of design and choices whereas WoW pretty much only has its own past to pull from.
#18DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 10 2013 at 2:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nope the act itself is far from fun.... but wha tyou gain from it and the sense of accomplishment is what make it worh it.
#19 Dec 10 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
And even then FFXI pre expansions still had a slight bit more things to do (and a bigger world) than FFXIV.

You are delusional. The only end game content FFXI had before any expansions was Upper Delkfut's Tower.
#20 Dec 10 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Duo obviously stopped playing FFXI before they introduced:

- Neo Nyzul Isle (hard mode)
- Salvage II (hard mode)
- Ultima and Omega (hard mode)
- Arch Dynamis Lord (DL hard mode)

Heck, I think we just got Hard Mode BCNMs in the last patch in XI.


oh gawd tell me youre joking.. yeah i stopped long before that bt even if those exist there probably within new content (i.e abyssea) even then FFXI got 7-8 years of REAL new content before the hard mode rehashes started sooo I dont see an issue in that case


Nope. All those were straight up additions to their original existing content. You can either pick original Nyzul Isle or Hard Mode Nzyul Isle (which was actually a challenge and kind of mean since it relies on the random number generator... get from floors 1-100 in 30 minutes? Better hope you jump 11 floors at a time each time...) Dynamis had a complete overhaul last year and is nothing like it was before. Entry time dropped from twice a week to once a day. Time inside zone soft capped at 1 hour, hard capped at two hours with time extension. Original Dynamis Lord still killable for storyline purposes and an extra 100 coin - hard mode Dynamis Lord required for level 99 relic upgrades.

Did some of the new "hard mode" BCNMs last night. Lots of fun, even if the ninja Yagudo blew up and killed us.
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#21DuoMaxwellxx, Posted: Dec 10 2013 at 2:23 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) roflmao what is upper delkfutts couldas even been considered "endgame"?
#22 Dec 10 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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I dont like the primal's HM for end game they are just more annoying not actually harder.
I dont mind the dungeons at all but having to run them so many times ugggg. People say that FFXI had grind.. Running WP so many times aint any different.

Fates are another grind.

I like dynamis back in the day when it required LS to play together as large group, this game does not do that and it needs that.
I also realize this game is still new and will get better. But I am not going to defend everything about this game either. Right now end game is not great...

End game needs more imagination and needs to different from 1-50 leveling and it is not. It more dungeons and primal fights made more annoying. Dynamis was something completely different from anything else done in the game up too that point.

Now I am not saying this game is all bad either I had allot of fun going from 1-50... End game not so much so far.

Hope the new content is good... and looks pretty good I just dont know how much is really there and how long it will take to complete.






Edited, Dec 10th 2013 3:49pm by Nashred
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#23 Dec 10 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I played DCUO for 2 years and was a legendary subscriber (Not F2P) the entire time... and trust me when I tell you they rehashed the same content over and over as well...

It's the same with all MMO's.



Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:03pm by Hairspray



i know DCUO hjas rehashed content galore... but that game is also F2P and like they ssay "you get what you pay for" so in that games case I understand and expect it... in an P2P game however.. I do not


Well it started as P2P, and I paid the entire 2 years I played because it was worth it in my opinion... until FFXIV came out.
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#24 Dec 10 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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On the note of expansions, I would assume that we will receive the first one in conjunction with the PS4 release. That would make sense in my opinion. If anything at least another 'major' patch.

Again, the game is still super young and honestly, we really can only speculate how the powers that be will direct it's course. I have mentioned this before, but this is there reason I am taking my time with the game.
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#25 Dec 10 2013 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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Hairspray wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Hairspray wrote:
I played DCUO for 2 years and was a legendary subscriber (Not F2P) the entire time... and trust me when I tell you they rehashed the same content over and over as well...

It's the same with all MMO's.



Edited, Dec 10th 2013 2:03pm by Hairspray



i know DCUO hjas rehashed content galore... but that game is also F2P and like they ssay "you get what you pay for" so in that games case I understand and expect it... in an P2P game however.. I do not


Well it started as P2P, and I paid the entire 2 years I played because it was worth it in my opinion... until FFXIV came out.



yeah it started as p2p an dyou see how quickly it went f2p... so unless FFXIV plans to go f2p soon (which i highly doubt) i expect MUCH more out of it than dcuo
#26 Dec 10 2013 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can understand the feeling of pre-nerf CoP, because I was one of the few that was actually caught up on missions as they released them. Yep, there was a time when you got to the "end" of the current progress and had to wait til the next patch to continue. It was hard as ****, took my static endless times to do it, and I stood up and screamed and pumped my fist when we took things like the mammets and U/O down. Would I want to go through farming stuff for the fights over and over, deal with constant trial and error, leveling subjobs or secondary jobs, gathering gear sets for level cap ever again? No way. The real beauty of the era was having a static and doing stuff in a small group of friends. THAT was rewarding and I would want that back.

Relics in XI? Old Dynamis? May it never return. The reason there were something like 10 relics per server pre-TOAU was because in order to have one you needed to somehow convince 30 other people to do Dynamis with you for the chance at lolAF2 while the leader pocketed the currency. I realize that some groups split the currency and that some rich crafters bought most of their own currency, but the vast majority of the whole system was 2 alliances doing an event for the benefit of 1 person. Combine that with the 72 hour lockout and the $1 million entry fee and you have one of the worst systems ever.

Exploring? Larger zones? Yep, all that was cool in XI but only for a few times. It was great being a level 20 noob trying to make your way to Jeuno or taking the boat to Selbina and stuff that most of us that played XI still remember. The reality is it IS archaic and not done anymore because it takes too **** long. Anyone remember xping in sky? or Cape Terrigan? Gather in Jeuno (1 hour), teleport (but only if you have a WHM), chocobo ride as far as you can (15 min), sneak/invis to camp (someone dies, wasted 30 min, now BRD needs to go because its been too long), finally get to camp. It was a process in and of itself just to get a decent party, much less an ideal party, and then if you get to camp and get started - you better **** well have 3 hours to xp and hope no one else comes to camp on top of you.
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