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#27 Jan 24 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Don't forget the multiple levels of bad guys: The familiar enemy (frenemy?), the tragic enemy, and the epic godlike enemy. Seymour is probably the creepiest frenemy type since you kill him once and he comes back as a goddamn zombie on you. And don't get me started on Kefka...


You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.
#28 Jan 24 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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That would be an awesome experience in my book what better
way to make you hate your archenemy than for them to slay
a mob that drops something you want. Yes it would be an inconvenience
but it would give you those "YOU *******" moments and imo
as long as it was not a "frequent" occurance and you had the option
of redoing the leve with a drastically lowered or zilch chance of
encounter to allow you to fight the mob you were after then it would be
cool and add some life and emersion to the game especially if it were a
randomly generated model to give some uniqueness.

Maybe even to the point that even the entire party you were with
Would have a chance at encountering them as you would
Have a chance to encounter theirs , however that may become
very problematic as I can see so might it just be a better option
to restricta chance of encounter to solo leves then it would also
present a bonus to swapping up the ol routine of partying if
the party concept and bonuses actually pan out that is.
#29 Jan 24 2013 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.


That's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Also, while people may complain, as long as a game is good, people will put up with any amount of trouble. Look at Dark Souls; looks at Elder Scrolls / Fallout; look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R.; look at Final Fantasy XI. If the game is worth playing, people will stick around for a long time, showing no small amount of dedication -- and the kind of surprise events like you suggest would become part of the FFXIV culture in the best possible way.
#30 Jan 24 2013 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah i really like that idea too. Somebody get on that :)
#31 Jan 24 2013 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Xoie wrote:
You know I've often wondered if a random "HQ encounter" would spice things up a bit. It would be something or someone like a Seymour who has it out for you and can do a surprise take over of your event. Like say you were jumping into a standard guildleve and instead you get attacked by Seymour's henchmen. Or you're off to fight Garuda and you find Seymour who already killed her and fights you instead.

Of course winning the challenge has its share of cash and prizes, and bragging rights around the virtual water cooler.

But part of me thinks people would just get angry they didn't get the fight they wanted.


That's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.

Also, while people may complain, as long as a game is good, people will put up with any amount of trouble. Look at Dark Souls; looks at Elder Scrolls / Fallout; look at S.T.A.L.K.E.R.; look at Final Fantasy XI. If the game is worth playing, people will stick around for a long time, showing no small amount of dedication -- and the kind of surprise events like you suggest would become part of the FFXIV culture in the best possible way.


I agree that it's a great idea, but Xoie is spot on with his(?) concerns that players might grow to resent the mechanic. As with any good idea or premise, it's the execution that really matters. It would be incredibly easy for a designer to thoughtlessly turn this into a feature that either ends up being an unwelcome interruption to the player's activities, or even more likely, to be such a desirable event that players end up pursuing it intentionally.

The key to what makes this idea great, like so many others, is that it comes as a cool surprise. But it's easy to imagine something as a cool surprise without regard for the context of the player's experience. If the reward is too great or desirable, then players will seek it out and expect to find it... then it's not so surprising at all when you do. Particularly if this becomes the impetus for them doing something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, let's say guildleves, then that one cool element comes at the expense of motivating the player to do things that they don't enjoy for the sake of the reward. That's not necessarily a good thing. Now, the "player" is just working for the reward of getting to do a cool event. Of course, if the other elements of the game--the parts inbetween the reward--are fun in and of themselves, then it's no problem. But if it's kill X rats, your cool idea is looking more like an intermission from a tedious game than a surprising and engaging feature.

So a great idea, yes, but like all great ideas, the execution is everything.
#32 Jan 24 2013 at 11:27 PM Rating: Excellent
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.
#33 Jan 24 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
catwho wrote:
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.


Not being combative at all, just pointing out that then we'd be at the same old grind that mystic weapons or WSNM stuff was in XI. I, personally, did not mind such tasks, but this seems to be the very thing that SE is trying to avoid (much to my dismay.)

EDIT: I read this and then realized I did not clarify to the point I would have liked to.

If I am going to participate in any repetetive activity, I expect some tangible result. I like to think any normal person, especially any westerner, would understand that. Athletes practice every day to hone their particular skills in whatever sport they compete. Scholars study and research tirelessly to become experts in their field. If I can only do a set number of leves a day and it requires me 100 or more leves to access the next part of the story, I will tend to be underwhelmed (unless the particular piece of the story is juicy as hell.)

I guess what I'm saying is that I want something I can use / show off by doing all those leves, not be relegated to knowing what the next section of the story is, which will turn up on a wiki for all to read within the month.

Edited, Jan 25th 2013 12:46am by IKickYoDog
#34 Jan 25 2013 at 12:57 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
It could be used as part of its only storyline progression. So, say, you'd only get that particular cutscene+mini boss one time, ever, per character (provided you defeat him.) And then in another hundred leves, you'd get the next installment in the story.

As long as the alternate storyline/path isn't progress dependent (e.g. limit breaks), it could definitely provide an incentive for doing leves besides the same old level grind.


Therein lies the quandary. A design device cannot be both an incentive and also be a novel, surprising element. To be an incentive predicates that the player knows that it exists and pursues it. So it has to pick one, and either one is fine! But, what I mean to point out is that the reason it sounds like such a good idea is that we can easily imagine it being a surprising element that catches us off guard. If we then go and make it an incentive, it loses a lot of that coolness and becomes a carrot. But if it doesn't actually do anything valuable, as in an incentive, it may be cool, but it won't directly encourage players to participate in the other design elements that were created.

The trick is that this should ideally be something that surprises us, and we don't know it's coming, but when it does, we like it. In a day and age where players are going to research away most of the surprises, this remains a challenge.

And this is where a lot of MMOs break down. Rather than putting in all of these cool features with no strings attached, allowing you to play just for the sake of being surprised (remember when the idea of an MMO was to explore a living, breathing world full of surprises and adventure, rather than to get to max level and equip the best gear?), they stay focused on player goals and progression, carefully trying to figure out how to space out their carrots to keep you pulling the wagon the longest.

Edited, Jan 24th 2013 10:59pm by Kachi
#35 Jan 25 2013 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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Now that the thread is firmly off track...these points about novelty:

These "little things" are what make the greatest games. Unfortunately they are IMO a bit more difficult to implement in games like MMOs that become reduced to "what these events can get me" rather than the experience itself.

Things that stand out to me the most are "mini games" or "meta games."

Things like:

The courtroom scene from Chrono Trigger

The opera scene from FFVI

The "escaping the cell" scene from MGS

The strategy game from FFVII (and all of the other mini games)

The WoW "chess" event.
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...And although the "random HQ battle" idea is a very good one, I feel that a FF MMO needs to really incorporate more story driven elements like the "meeting/dinner with the emperor" in FFVI that asks you a certain series of questions and then grants you a reward based off of how you answered the question. Yes, people will find the "right" answers after a while, but that's why you'd randomize it and have varied combinations.

I feel that FFXIV could excel in this department and bring in a much needed shot of interactive story/lore to the MMO market in general.

Of course FFXI had Genkai and Airship pass/Chocobo quests that were blocks to progression/travel, but if tweaked a bit, I think could still work in providing much needed variation in a generally stale MMO market as well.

I don't really want just an "amusement park" where I can do a lot of things at any and all times. I want to experience, one time memorable events (AF quests and those mentioned above), that mean something after I accomplish it, in congruence to the progression of my character.

And I don't want to repeat the same quests for sets of gear. Yes, I like grinding sometimes, but ultimately I don't. Guildleves as "progression" was horrible and I'd much rather (although still not optimal) have "regular" quests to progress. I just hope they are varied/fun enough.

In the end MMOs have many things to keep a player playing and progressing: skills, levels, stats, gil, gear, quests, as well as exploration, pride of progression itself and many others. Story is usually on the bottom of the list, but in a FF game (MMO or not) it should be up there and SE should take a page from their single-player games, as well as FFXI to do this.
#36 Jan 25 2013 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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On most points I agree completely.

Quote:
...And although the "random HQ battle" idea is a very good one, I feel that a FF MMO needs to really incorporate more story driven elements like the "meeting/dinner with the emperor" in FFVI that asks you a certain series of questions and then grants you a reward based off of how you answered the question. Yes, people will find the "right" answers after a while, but that's why you'd randomize it and have varied combinations.


On this one, my point of caution would be that if the rewards were meaningful at all, then players would be rightfully irritated if it boiled down to a one-time chance for a good reward, and missed it because it ultimately became a game of chance, or looking up the right answer. Actually, I recall quite a few scenes with Naja Salaheem that were quite well done in FFXI (a minigame or two as well). I don't believe they yielded any rewards, but they do serve your point about the importance of these novel elements.

However, I will say that I think SWTOR actually did an exemplary job with its story-centric play. FFXIV would do well to live up to that standard. SWTOR's primary downfall was the mediocre gameplay, which serves to show just how lethal mediocre gameplay can be, even when all else is done rather well.
#37 Jan 25 2013 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not so sure surprise and incentive can't go together as long as you have the right amount of suspense to glue the two together. After playing a prank on a friend, once your friend vows revenge, you know it's going to happen. But what keeps you on your toes is that you don't know when or how.

As a hero, you're bound to make some enemies along the way. Even if you know and expect they'll come after you, not knowing when or what form their attack will take could add some fun suspense to an otherwise dull grind. Plus, it's all the better if the villain is after you because it's personal. It makes you feel like your actions are making a difference and a familiar powerful foe that has your number is the stuff of many a popular adventure.

Pulling it off in the right measure could be tough, but I think it could make for an interesting innovation if it's done right.
#38 Jan 25 2013 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
I'm not so sure surprise and incentive can't go together as long as you have the right amount of suspense to glue the two together. After playing a prank on a friend, once your friend vows revenge, you know it's going to happen. But what keeps you on your toes is that you don't know when or how.

As a hero, you're bound to make some enemies along the way. Even if you know and expect they'll come after you, not knowing when or what form their attack will take could add some fun suspense to an otherwise dull grind. Plus, it's all the better if the villain is after you because it's personal. It makes you feel like your actions are making a difference and a familiar powerful foe that has your number is the stuff of many a popular adventure.

Pulling it off in the right measure could be tough, but I think it could make for an interesting innovation if it's done right.


Well, I'm going to have to quibble with that analogy just a bit. Anticipating revenge and being on your toes for it, and expecting a reward (incentive), are very different things. The latter is more like working at a sales job where you expect to make some sales and earn a commission, but you don't know when they'll come. It can be exciting for a while, but at some point, you expect to make sales, and there is no thrill to it. And when you're looking for it and you don't find it, it's frustrating and ******, which is not at all a good quality in a game.

If you go out looking for trouble, you won't be surprised to find it... you'll be disappointed if you don't. And that is the part that is difficult to pull off artfully. Not impossible, just difficult.
#39 Jan 25 2013 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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An easy solution: when selecting a leve, an event takes place randomly and varies depending upon one's story progression and/or level. The event features whatever SE wants it to feature. Maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get ambushed by the empire; maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get one massive dodo brood mother.

The reward can just be a gil and item bonus, a title, and/or an achievement - maybe some vanity gear for a late-game or high-level event; maybe that brood dodo drops fifty dodo feathers and some re-skinned boots with a feathered trim. My point is that there's no need to make the rewards top-tier armours to make them appealing to most everyone.
#40 Jan 25 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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That can work.. the only issue I see with it is that it needs to be the same difficulty level as whatever leve you originally signed up for.

Otherwise, the player doing it will suddenly find themselves unable to do their content through no fault of their own.
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#41 Jan 25 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
RDM is currently wallowing in the pits of "nobody wants me" over in XI. They may be concerned about that happening in XIV, too.

Funny, because at one point RDM was one of the most popular jobs and everyone wanted it leveled. These days, though, it's just not specialized enough, and the one thing it is really good at (enfeebles) is pointless for the majority of endgame fights.



While not disagreeing with the desirability of RDM over on XI (I stopped playing 2 years ago, so I'm not up on current trends,) I highly doubt this is the reason they're not including it in XIV atm.

It's more likely due to the fact that they don't have time to balance such a job in time for release.... or some other reason which we can't even speculate upon.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure it's a logical one.
#42 Jan 25 2013 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
That can work.. the only issue I see with it is that it needs to be the same difficulty level as whatever leve you originally signed up for.

Otherwise, the player doing it will suddenly find themselves unable to do their content through no fault of their own.


"Expect the unexpected, this is a Square-Enix game, b*tch!"
*slaps leve ticket to the ground*
"Well? Who's gonna pick it up!?"


That's the SE I knew and loved.
#43 Jan 25 2013 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
An easy solution: when selecting a leve, an event takes place randomly and varies depending upon one's story progression and/or level. The event features whatever SE wants it to feature. Maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get ambushed by the empire; maybe we select to kill dodos and instead we get one massive dodo brood mother.

The reward can just be a gil and item bonus, a title, and/or an achievement - maybe some vanity gear for a late-game or high-level event; maybe that brood dodo drops fifty dodo feathers and some re-skinned boots with a feathered trim. My point is that there's no need to make the rewards top-tier armours to make them appealing to most everyone.


If properly balanced, I think that works just fine. You can still run into scenarios where a player really wants vanity a item, and while that may not be as critical an incentive as a performance-based item, ends up with the same net effect of player frustration. However, I think overall the idea works, just as long as the rewards are something a player would appreciate, but not necessarily set goals around obtaining.
#44 Jan 26 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
I really hope they have ideas for BeastMaster in ffxiv! i loved that job before they killed it with the pets despawning after releasing them.

btw im new to the forums but ive played ffxi since ps2 relase untill about a few months after ahts urgan was released. Absolutely loved playing BST when I wasnt doing any ground kings or events i really hope they have plans for that job in this one.
#45 Jan 26 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the best change to leves would be to get rid of them.

Seriously, I don't know why people weren't up in arms about the fact that while every other WoW-like game has actual quests (as boring and generic as these games may be), SE's solution to quest based XPing was to make a small number of scenarios which are basically all the same thing (run to a target on the map and kill the monsters that spawn there, again and again and again). It's just the laziest, most half assed game design imaginable. They're not even challenging (for some reason that I never found out, leve monsters had hardly any HP) and most of the time was spent travelling. I hope they don't feature so much in 2.0.

With all the running just to kill generic enemies that were even weaker than normal, how can anyone have found them fun? Even the first few levels of grinding in Sarutabaruta/Ronfaure/Gustaberg was more entertaining than that garbage.

Edited, Jan 26th 2013 10:42pm by Dizmo
#46 Jan 26 2013 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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I completely agree, actually. I never thought they were a good idea. I mean, wow, I get to select a quest from a menu... how immersive and exciting!
#47 Jan 26 2013 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not only that, but they all take place around generic, predesignated level spots with the same floating crystal at the centre. Leves really are a bland feature to have in any game, and I'm glad so many others think so, too.
#48 Jan 26 2013 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Not only that, but they all take place around generic, predesignated level spots with the same floating crystal at the centre. Leves really are a bland feature to have in any game, and I'm glad so many others think so, too.


Welcome to 2012/2013 MMORPGs. It's only downhill from here.
#49 Jan 26 2013 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately I think the main reason people haven't raised much of a stink over it is because there have been much bigger issues on the table. At least, speaking for myself. If combat isn't, frankly, quite a bit better than that in other popular MMOs, leves won't even be the straw to break the chocobo's back. That sucker will have given out long before a lackluster questing interface comes into play.
#50 Jan 26 2013 at 11:31 PM Rating: Good
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While I agree that leves aren't particularly fun or interesting, I do think that their implementation was improved in the Alpha.

SE will never get rid of them completely, because writing enough quests to accommodate players who want to level every class is an impossible undertaking. Unless they decide to dump the idea of the armory, which will never happen, you can expect leves to stick around.
#51 Jan 26 2013 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I really don't see how leves solve the problem of XP, either. I mean, they're basically just repeatable quests. Lots of games, including FFXI, have them. And it's not like you can't XP by killing monsters outside of leves.
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