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Letter from the Producer, XLIII (02/15/2013)Follow

#77 Feb 19 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


As a man who has no experience with that, I'll take your word for it. I agree with you. Even coliseum gear was a bit unrealistic for the females and had no battle purposes :o. For someone with your disposition, it would be very uncomfortable indeed.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/50558-New-coliseum-gear-too-lewd/page36

I do hope they don't go the whole overly skimpy route. Skimpy is fine in moderation :) To be fair, the male coliseum gear was equally skimpy. Though they didn't have mammaries to worry about during combat roles.
#78 Feb 19 2013 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.
#79 Feb 19 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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412 posts
Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


Exactly. It's a far cry from misogyny in other games. I played Tera for a bit, and boy that was very skimpy. Feel free to cry sexism there. I think that S-E is trying to pander to some of the audiences in that game type without completely going there. Like... nude art vs vulgar nude cam shows. Hard to please everyone, but they are probably going to stick to their standards and culture when making video games.
#80 Feb 19 2013 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah XIV 1.0 was pretty bad - I mean Uldah had a main character walking around in lacy underwear all the time. I kept shouting at her to put on some damn pants.
#81 Feb 19 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


For the record, I don't think that sexy is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.

#82 Feb 19 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that sexy is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.
#83 Feb 19 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Xoie wrote:
catwho wrote:
Speaking as a chick with an oversized bosom, it's just unrealistic to have huge boobs without the necessary supports in place. Even with expensive battle bras, I have a constant back ache, I have welts on my shoulders where the straps dig in, and I still can't do certain athletic activities without feeling like I'm going to tear something.

That's one thing I really like about XI - the majority of functional battle clothing covered things up, and even the skimpier outfits (like the Scorpion Harness and its infamous side boob) had proper support built in.


I agree. I thought FFXI was mostly pretty respectful and realistic towards female bodies and their outfits. They are getting a bit sexier with FFXIV (now with bikinis and bouncing boobs), but again, it's a far cry from some of the more salacious games out there that practically give girls a better armor rating the more skin is exposed.


For the record, I don't think that sexy is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.



One can respect that. I hope we can all receive a small portion of the things we want in game.
#84 Feb 19 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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412 posts
Xoie wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that sexy is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.


True, most of the extensive character creators are from single player games that don't have that concern.
#85 Feb 19 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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GDLYL wrote:
Xoie wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
For the record, I don't think that sexy is a problem. What I do think is a problem is offering a boob slider and no other real decision making power over how my character looks. That's all I am looking for, is the ability to make a choice about whether I want a character that looks like a speed skater or a marathon runner, or a breast augmented coke fiend.


One of the annoyances I had with 1.0 was the small limit to the number of characters that could appear around you and the time it took to load in new ones once those 40 slots were up. I could literally stand in the Gridania Inn for 2 minutes before the innkeeper would appear and let me in my own room.

I know this is one area they were trying to address with some of the official alpha photos the developers took where they tried to cram as many people in the same place at once. Part of the reason they are getting rid of visible equipment like belts is so that they can improve this performance.

What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times. That's why body types are fairly static except for a few tweaks on the face, and I guess, now boobs. I suppose the different races are the way they try to accommodate different body types rather than use a single race that can be customized out in every direction.

But I can empathize that this won't meet with everyone's ideal expectations, especially in a gaming world full of elaborate character generators.


True, most of the extensive character creators are from single player games that don't have that concern.


I don't think so. Lots of other games offer more robust character creation menus than XIV did. It may be a combination of customization and high resolutions (players keeping their settings high) that's the problem, in which case my preference would be for more customization. From their side of things, their graphics are more future-proofed, which makes good business sense in the MMO market. But it does contribute to the question of, "Will there even be a future for FFXIV?"

Edited, Feb 19th 2013 2:29pm by Kachi
#86 Feb 19 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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412 posts
Lots of other games such as? I've tried the popular ones, and I can't really see a major difference in the options the same way single player games show. Like cheek size, jaw size, nose ridge etc. I wouldn't say that an MMO with that level of options doesn't exist, and I also wouldn't say lots. I do however see the new elder scrolls MMO having that level, simply because they have made a name for themselves by giving the players full access to character creation. Will it be the same as their single player counter part? Time will tell.
#87 Feb 19 2013 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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GW2 and SWTOR off the top of my head. The problem with XIV was that it started with too few base options, didn't differentiate between them enough, made enough of them flat-out undesirable, and didn't give you much slider control. So while perhaps in theory you had almost as many options as other games, the amount of noticeable and desirable differences you could make were often barely discernible.

I vividly recall almost more than anything else how much disappointment there was across the board about the XIV character customization options.
#88 Feb 19 2013 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea, I think people had the same issues with FFXI as well if I recall. Seeing as 2.0 will have sliders etc, or so I hear, It might please a few people.
#89 Feb 19 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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They did. That was probably responsible for a good 50% of the use of the term "PS2 limitations".
#90REDACTED, Posted: Feb 20 2013 at 4:14 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Omg, of course your not the only one, have you seen any of my post? The ones were I get bashed for loving the things you mentioned and hoping that SE would keep that mold instead of catering to the masses. They make a mil plus from FFXI, update the looks, and some new features but keep the base, BUT like you, I don't see any other MMO out there gets my coin. I was excited for PSO2, but that was a major disappointment for me at least, would've been the only game that competed... time wise at least.
#91 Feb 20 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?

#92 Feb 20 2013 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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2,153 posts
Because I hated how my character looked almost exactly like one of the main characters of the Ul´Dah Storyline. Very confusing during cutscenes.
#93REDACTED, Posted: Feb 20 2013 at 5:49 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When I see post like these, my philopolemicism comes out!
#94 Feb 20 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Rinsui wrote:
@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?



Rinsui wrote:
@Xoie
Quote:
What I'm getting at is that I think there is a limit to the amount of customization they can offer without there being an impact on loading times.


That´s something I never fully understood. The way I *presume* (mind you, I´m not an expert!) it works is that every character model is internally represented as a multidimensional vector, with each number in the vector representing a specific configuration for the corresponding asset. E.g., 1/3/2 would mean "hair type 1, face type 3, body type 2". If so, the loading times for characters in a large crowd would indeed increase in a linear fashion with the number of available customization options for each asset. (e.g., in comparison to loading times with no customization options at all, loading times with 15, 7, and 3 options for hair, face, and body type, respectively, would roughly increase 15+7+3=25-fold.

However, this layman assessment of mine is based on the (possibly simplistic) assumption that each asset actually exists as a complete, fixed entity somewhere in the database. However, if this would be the case, each individual assets would, once again, be defined by a number of mesh nodes and their spacial relation to each other.

And here it gets interesting.

If I am right and each asset is, on the most basic level, again made up of data detailing the spacial relation of mesh nodes, then the question arises what computational impact the possibility to directly customize the spacial relation of mesh nodes (via sliders) during character creation would really have. As the respective basic-level data (the spacial relation of mesh nodes of an asset) will have to be loaded during the rendering process anyway...?

In short: anybody able to enlighten me why SE does not allow for a fluid customization of body features, and uses a fixed-block "lego" approach to character creation instead? Anyone understand the question?



Don't quote me on this because I could be wrong, but I thought the Character Creator for 2.0 was going to have sliders?
#95 Feb 20 2013 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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2,153 posts
Quote:
Don't quote me on this because I could be wrong, but I thought the Character Creator for 2.0 was going to have sliders?

Yah, well,... the character creator for the alpha version... I mean, the one presented in the corresponding preview here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR7ZfIyuHp0, of course, certainly didn't. At least no continuous ones. But! There are a few more options possible already; for example, you can now select from 4 face types (as in 1.0), but those face types are then additionally qualified by different outlines (hollowness of the cheeks), eyeforms, and so on so there's already a broader variation than in 1.0.

My question was more of a theoretical nature: what computational benefit is there to locking players to a combination of fixed templates instead of allowing them to directly influence the distance parameters of the basic meshes?
#96 Feb 20 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,153 posts
Or is it just a safeguard against this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk-lSqghJ4U ?

...still, I must say, I would *still* like to see a few original and "strange" characters now and then. I mean, in real life there are also quite a few people you see in the subway that make you go "wtf... the gods sure have a sick sense of humor...". I mean, there's only so many white-haired Miq'ote neechans and emo-Sephiroth-clones you can take per day...
#97 Feb 20 2013 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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412 posts
Lol, I appreciate the pitch black characters I see people running around with. There is a highlander in my LS we cal "paper bag," and he owns it as his nick name. I know the feel. The same with names. Only so many Uchihas I can take lol.
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