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#202 Mar 28 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
Were Xenogears and Xenosaga supposed to be related at all? If they were I definitely don't see how Smiley: laugh I hadn't played Xenogears before Xenosaga, so I really enjoyed myself.


The plan was for the creators of Xenogears to produce episode 1-7( or was it 6 ? ) under the name Xenogears. But square i guess ignored them or shelved the IP for years and they got tired of their BS and left :/ something along those lines, they wanted to stick with the original plan but SE did not sell the rights to Xenogears, so they had to make Xenosaga, which means they could no longer follow the plan they had in Perfect Work etc etc. So they still used the same Mythos and ideas but with totally different characters and story. Also what happened with Xenogears as far as the second disc was, that Square was behind in FFVII so they shifted resources and personel from Xenogeares to finish VII, and that is why the second disc of Xenogears is as it was ( Which i did not found that horrible, i was already tired of grinding by that time XD!)

As far as Xenosaga, EP 1 was solid, 2 was very Meh! and 3 was awesome <3 I really which SE would get the xeno team back and do a remake of Xenogears as it was intended and release EP 5 (Lacans Story)
#203 Mar 29 2013 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Tons of people will not give a subscription game a chance.


A lot of these people would hardly pay anything through a cash shop, either.

Not saying F2P isn't profitable -- it seems to be much more profitable in the short term -- but SE is clearly planning FFXIV for the long haul. They need to make money for their shareholders, but shareholders aren't business partners. Shareholders are in this for the long haul too, and they'll be better off with profits over time. Meanwhile, SE doesn't need to repay investors (business partners) for development costs, because ARR was handled in house... so there's no external pressure to go F2P, which is a big problem with other games... hence the cash grab.

Given how quickly F2P games tend to fade away, it just seems that a P2P game with a significantly smaller population would be far more profitable after several years because EVERYONE is paying into it.


I wouldn't exactly call F2P a cash grab. That term implies that you're trying to generate a quick profit and sacrificing the longevity of the product to do so. Many F2P models do generate profit quickly yes, but that also sets them up in a better position to funnel some of that profit back into the game and I would argue that this would bolster the sustained profit through having more funds to develop and implement more content. Seems more like a matter of player preference to me.

Some players thought the 3 year storyline development of earlier FFXI expansions was fine, but there are probably as many players who would have preferred more content upfront with more frequent expansions. The ironic thing about it is that F2P expansion timelines tend to support the hardcore players habits more than the casual player in the sense that people who play for long periods or more frequently tend to burn through content faster. I say ironic because it's usually the players who support the hardcore aspect of gaming who tend to be strongly against F2P models.

Making a statement like 'F2P games fade quickly' should probably be qualified with the specific names of the games. There are quite a few F2P games that are still popular after having been released quite a while ago and do just as well if not better than their subscription based counterparts. I play many games that I probably wouldn't bother to play if they were subscription based instead of F2P or B2P. That doesn't condemn those games to being poorly designed, but the trend is the trend for a reason...



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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#204 Mar 29 2013 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Pretty much every Zynga game has a shelf life of 2-3 years max. Farmville came out in 2009; they released Farmville II in 2012 after Farmville went from the #1 game on Facebook to #7 about this time last year.

People got bored with it. Then again, that's a social game and not an MMO, but I think it's relevant all the same. F2P games appeal to folks without the budget for a monthly game, and people with enough money that they don't mind throwing it at hobbies that produce satisfaction in the short term but no tangible goods. Both of those types are the kind who go "oooh shiny" and flit over to the next shiny thing in three months.

About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.
#205 Mar 29 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.


And also more of a marketing tool targeted at children. >_>
#206 Mar 29 2013 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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You can't realistically expect to save the world without a 64oz. Double Gulp.

And nachos.

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 11:53am by lolgaxe
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#207 Mar 29 2013 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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When i talk for an F2P game i keep thinking of this http://en.flyff.gpotato.com/ flyff or "fly for fun" . One of my girlfriends used to play it quite a lot. Had spend some cash on it as well. They games graphic was meh but not terrible. I see now that they made drastic changes. Anyway i saw that this game is in the game industry for quite some time now and saw a number of 30mil people that played it. The number is huge but then again numbers don't really count in an F2P. But think of this, even if only 1 tenth of that number used the cash shop or w/e its called there, how much money have they made?

Anyway i don't like F2P as i said before but if that game is around for that long i wander how much money they made so far.

#208 Mar 29 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
Eh, games like LotRO ended up doing better with F2P. I admit I love the sub based model, but if game after game keeps coming out and flops...something has to change.
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#209 Mar 29 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Last night in my E-Commerce class, we had a discussion on casinos, and how Harrah's has become the most profitable casino corporation in the last decade by ignoring the "whales" and focusing on their actual core customers, which turned out to be little old ladies who come for the social aspects and drop $20 on the penny slots reliably every week. The casino devised rewards programs to encourage them to come more often, such as Red Hat Club socials, loyalty rewards programs (come 10 visits and dinner's on us!), and made sure that their casinos were friendly environments to elderly citizens - handicapped ramps, disability specialists, etc.

I think that MMO game companies have a market disconnect (as I mentioned up thread or in another thread) and they still haven't figured out the sweet spot for subscription games (should be geared at 25-45 year olds) versus free to play games (should be geared at a much broader age range.)

I suppose I have no qualms with F2P games that are developed and released as such, but AAA title MMORPGs that were intended to be subscription based and had to go F2P don't fall into that category.

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:10pm by catwho
#210 Mar 29 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, it seems that a lot of my friends are ditching PC gaming completely in favor of more challenging board games like Descent. This core demographic of gamers wants to be challenged, and they are willing to spend long hours with a hobby that is intellectually stimulating. Developers need to be catering more to this audience. After all, we are the ones with the open wallets, not 15-year-old boys.
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#211 Mar 29 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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F2P is synonymous with quick gratification.. For developers investors and players.. Everything about the games are fast paced feel good and on to the next.. F2p, similarly to what catwho said, are for players that jump from one game to another.. As opposed to players like Wint who commented that he is looking for a MMO home where he can invest years of playing in. Some F2P games are fun heck even most of them are.. For like 2 months.. ive never played a F2P game longer than 2 months.. As opposed to sub fee games that atrract long-time invested players.. not so quickly gratifying.. you have to work for what you get and when you finaly get it you appreciate it all the more! Getting level 75 was a BIG deal to me lol. Not some "took me a month to reach max." Sub-fee is where it is at for true MMO players.. Thats the way it is.. F2P is a trend because corps thought too highly of themselves and released junk.. F2P is also a trend because people are making as much money as they were.. F2P is just a biproduct of economic woes and companies like SE who thought they could just push whatever out and sub-fee it lol.. Dont get me wrong I love SE and I enjoyed FFXIV 1.x even with its downfalls.. That is why I am confident ARR is just what the MMO industry needs. Sub-fee roots with all the best gaming content and graphics.. I expect a pretty good launch but I believe it will be ever better with age as it continues to grow. (excuse typos at work and uses quota time no time to check my spelling! lol)
#212 Mar 29 2013 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
The ignorance of free to play is quite astounding.

There are many high quality games that are free to play, many that cost as much to create as XIV did and many that have lasted for 3-5 years. It's not a short term system, the games are still designed to be long standing money makers and are continually updated. The most current free to play game transition MMO has graphics that are very comparable if not better than FFXIV ARR and are just as complex and have just as much if not more content.

The only difference between a free to play game and a pay to play game is the payment system, they can be identical in every other way.

It's very difficult to argue with the fact that almost every single MMO that launched as pay to play is no longer pay to play, because they lost far too many players after the first 1-2 months to sustain the games endgame content and profits. FFXIV is actually in a far worse position than most games due to it being old and relaunched from a title that was very unpopular.

Quote:
About the only F2P game that has more years on it than WoW is MapleStory, and that's a sprite based side scroller.


FFXI was based on Everquest, which still runs and is free to play. 13 years later.

https://www.everquest.com/

https://www.everquest2.com/



Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:18pm by preludes
#213 Mar 29 2013 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
On that note, Lahurah's parents (who are in their 50s to 60s) actually played 1.0 with her for a while. They'd shown 0 interest in FFXI in the years she played it, but they thought 1.0 was pretty and played it for quite some time.

Despite all its flaws, 1.0 had an appeal to them. XIV 2.0 may or may not have that appeal, but if it does, they may have hit their "sweet spot for the little old ladies dropping $20 on penny slots every week" demographic. And if Yoshi P really is playing the long game, that's going to be a demographic he targets. (Especially in Japan. I remember the first Nintendo Wii commercials, back when it was still code named Revolution, where Nintendo wanted to make it a "family computer" again so they had the elderly couple playing a music conducting game with the Wiimotes.)
#214 Mar 29 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Default
catwho wrote:
On that note, Lahurah's parents (who are in their 50s to 60s) actually played 1.0 with her for a while. They'd shown 0 interest in FFXI in the years she played it, but they thought 1.0 was pretty and played it for quite some time.

Despite all its flaws, 1.0 had an appeal to them. XIV 2.0 may or may not have that appeal, but if it does, they may have hit their "sweet spot for the little old ladies dropping $20 on penny slots every week" demographic. And if Yoshi P really is playing the long game, that's going to be a demographic he targets. (Especially in Japan. I remember the first Nintendo Wii commercials, back when it was still code named Revolution, where Nintendo wanted to make it a "family computer" again so they had the elderly couple playing a music conducting game with the Wiimotes.)


Doesn't really mean anything, you can find little old ladies (or whatever other kind of player you want) on any MMO you care to mention. There is one on my Tera guild (she likes her male castanic characters >.>) and I knew one from my WoW times, they aren't just found on FFXIV lol

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 1:22pm by preludes
#215 Mar 29 2013 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm not saying that other MMOs don't have them. There are lots in FFXI too, for example.

I'm saying those MMOs weren't marketed to them.

Any MMORPG that wants to play a long game, with long term subscribers, needs to consider the demographic that's actually willing to pay money.
#216 Mar 29 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho is teh smarts.
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#217 Mar 29 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I wouldn't exactly call F2P a cash grab. That term implies that you're trying to generate a quick profit and sacrificing the longevity of the product to do so. Many F2P models do generate profit quickly yes, but that also sets them up in a better position to funnel some of that profit back into the game and I would argue that this would bolster the sustained profit through having more funds to develop and implement more content. Seems more like a matter of player preference to me.


The problem is.. other than League of Legends no F2P game pumps out content anywhere near as fast as WoW. Pretty much every small F2P game is a cash grab with little content and a pay to win attitude. With as little as these companies comparatively spent on game development they probably make great profit. However you never see any content updates, or if you do it's after 3-5 years. I played a blatant WoW-clone called Fiesta off and on for 3+ years and they never released anything new other than cash shop garbage. Guild Wars 2 has been out for 6+ months and still hasn't released any new content either. This is a game where you could get to max level in a week or less with no end game content. F2P looks nice on paper but it just doesn't work that way.

catwho wrote:
I think that MMO game companies have a market disconnect (as I mentioned up thread or in another thread) and they still haven't figured out the sweet spot for subscription games (should be geared at 25-45 year olds) versus free to play games (should be geared at a much broader age range.)


I would love to see a "Mature" rated MMO for once and not just because of gore or boobies. Many teen games can get out an involved and mature story, but it's still there to be digested by a younger audience as well. It would be nice to see what a developer could come up with for serious gaming adults if they weren't so worried about milking the teenage market teet...And have it not devolve into some pervy sex game. ; ;

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 3:12pm by DamienSScott
#218 Mar 29 2013 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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9,997 posts
Eh, what passes for a Teen rating in the US is really about as Mature as you can ask for, except of course for sex. Violence and language wise, we press the boundaries of good taste with a Teen rating at times.

SWTOR seemed to have a good mature story to me. I guess it didn't have some of the racier elements of games like Mass Effect/Dragon Age insomuch as Bioware games go, but I'm not bothered by the inability to fornicate with NPCs.
#219 Mar 29 2013 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
But I'm not bothered by the inability to fornicate with NPCs.


Bu..But.. Fornicating with NPCs is basically all that I do!

/endfrychannel

Edited, Mar 29th 2013 3:40pm by DamienSScott
#220 Mar 29 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
I would LOVE to see a genuine, modern Dresden MMO.
#221REDACTED, Posted: Mar 29 2013 at 2:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because he agrees with you? Smiley: tongue
#222 Mar 29 2013 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
There are girls on the Internet, you know. Smiley: motz
#223 Mar 29 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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728 posts
Only when their men let them out of the kitchen after their sammich making duties.

Sorry... I just couldn't resist...

<3 catwho :D
#224 Mar 29 2013 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
DamienSScott wrote:
Only when their men let them out of the kitchen after their sammich making duties.

Sorry... I just couldn't resist...

<3 catwho :D


Husband is in DC til tomorrow night, which means I have a date with the PS3 tonight. THE TV IS MINE ALL MINE
#225 Mar 29 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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728 posts
catwho wrote:
Husband is in DC til tomorrow night, which means I have a date with the PS3 tonight. THE TV IS MINE ALL MINE


heehee, makes me wanna play Castlevania: Harmony of Despair.. pretty much the only game I have for mine other than Rocksmith atm..
#226 Mar 29 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Because he agrees with you?


That is usually a sign of intelligence.
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