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#77 May 29 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louis here notes that they did these 2 BCNM a lot, because of the drops and money (which, btw, is very consistent with how most people I have talked to spent their seals). So clearly SE failed to encourage him to utilize the diversity of all the BCNM/KSNM that they designed.


I'll also add, we did the ones that were the easiest for us, with our job pool, that had the greatest profit.

We also did hagun runs every time they were available :D

It wasn't worth wasting seals at a chance of failure, when we had proven success on others.
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#78 May 29 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
And what about those "chips" and the "mysterious device" that wanted a password. Did the password ever exist?


Yeah that was cracked a few years ago.
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#79 May 29 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I thoroughly enjoyed all the BCNM style battles, and I probably did just about all of them. So what if the majority didn't? So what if some of them were itemized better than others? That's the nature of an mmo. Are you trying to tell me there aren't other games out there with non-optimized content? I mean, every single raid pre-endgame in WoW is outdated and contains gear that can be trumped by green items of a similar level. It doesn't stop people from doing them or enjoying them. I was in a progression guild in WoW and had a blast doing the old raids, even though the gear in them was pointless. It was for the fun and challenge, much like many of the encounters in XI. There were also many encounters in XI that DID offer great rewards if that's what you were looking for, as Louis, Catwho, and myself have pointed out.

There were people that did all of the battles in XI, and people that enjoyed all of them. You can call them design flaws, I think of them more like easter eggs. It's not like creating a battle inside a pre-designed arena against 1-6 mobs was all that time consuming. And if even a few people did them, which more than a few definitely have over the years, I'd say that's not content wasted. Not everything has to be this uber efficient content that everyone has to attempt and drop equally good loot to make it successful... at least, not to me.



Edited, May 29th 2013 3:47pm by BartelX
#80 May 29 2013 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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LebargeX wrote:
And don't forget that new players had no idea what the seals were for, and were pitching them like crazy for months on end. Terrible design.

And what about those "chips" and the "mysterious device" that wanted a password. Did the password ever exist?

I think they should have made the BCNM's more difficult and made the drop a reward for completing the content. I did the worms and the jellies several times and got real tired of burning my seals for iron ingots and a few gil.. GAH!


Which is exactly why I saved every beastmen coin I found in xiv. I had stacks of them by the relic quest came out and didn't need to farm them. The drop rate on them weren't as bad as FFXI though.
#81 May 29 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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You can call them design flaws,


I'm going to agree with the general sentiment Kachi is getting at here:

It's wasted content, when it would be better if there was more incentive to take risks and try new things. Of course players in an MMO will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance. Every. Single. Time.

But if every BCNM had a worthwhile drop, and wasn't currency based to challenge? for example, the ENMs has time lockouts, so they were more popular. You could have an ENM ls and do a few on a scheduled day, whereas you would have to make your members farm seals for other BCs.

The design of the BC fights was poor, not the fights themselves. That's also, probably, why they didn't keep adding them and changed to ENMs and VNMs and other tiered progression fights. The content they added post-Aht Urghan was far more engaging and fun, IMO.
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#82 May 29 2013 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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To each his or her own I guess. I enjoyed them, even the ones that didn't have great drops. But then again, I had like 40 stacks of beastman seals from soloing so I was never short on them. So I'm probably not a good example of the average player in those terms. Like I said, I was a bit of a gaming hermit back in my FFXI days. Smiley: lol
#83 May 29 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed all the BCNM style battles, and I probably did just about all of them. So what if the majority didn't? So what if some of them were itemized better than others? That's the nature of an mmo. Are you trying to tell me there aren't other games out there with non-optimized content? I mean, every single raid pre-endgame in WoW is outdated and contains gear that can be trumped by green items of a similar level. It doesn't stop people from doing them or enjoying them. I was in a progression guild in WoW and had a blast doing the old raids, even though the gear in them was pointless. It was for the fun and challenge, much like many of the encounters in XI. There were also many encounters in XI that DID offer great rewards if that's what you were looking for, as Louis, Catwho, and myself have pointed out.

There were people that did all of the battles in XI, and people that enjoyed all of them. You can call them design flaws, I think of them more like easter eggs. It's not like creating a battle inside a pre-designed arena against 1-6 mobs was all that time consuming. And if even a few people did them, which more than a few definitely have over the years, I'd say that's not content wasted. Not everything has to be this uber efficient content that everyone has to attempt and drop equally good loot to make it successful... at least, not to me.



Edited, May 29th 2013 3:47pm by BartelX


You ask, "So what?" and I think the answer should be clear. "So, players missed out on lots of fun content that took a lot of time to develop." When you're in the business of making players have the most fun possible, that's bad design. And I'll be the last one to tell you that other games don't have similar problems, but FFXI had some really egregious examples that were easy to fix... but never fixed. FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs. But anyway, the larger point being that SE created a lot of content (honestly, probably close to half of it when you consider quests, missions, instances, NMs, etc.) that the majority of players never bothered with because they had no good reason to. INSTEAD(!) they repeated the same content over and over and over because they were trying to get those high-value items with stingy drop rates! Now, if that's not poor resource management and design, I honestly don't know what is. It's so easy to fix, the community complained about it incessantly, and most of them left precisely for that reason.

I'm glad you enjoyed FFXI. I had a lot of fond memories from it, too. But it's not hard to see how it could have been so much more than it was.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#84 May 29 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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1.Awesome combat and yes it can be done in conjunction with a GCD.(Taking into account this is a tab target combat system)
-A skill/momentum modifier feature applied to each hotkey:
Single Target Dmg- Tap button= High accuracy/lower power, longer you hold button the lower accuracy/high power it becomes.
AoE Dmg- Tap button= Low Radius/high power, longer you hold button before releasing the wider the radius/lower power.
Conal Dmg- Tap Button= Small cone/high Power, longer you hold button before releasing the wider the cone/lower power.
Enspells Dmg- Tap= Short duration/high dmg, longer you hold button the longer duration/lower dmg.
Debuffs- Tap= Short duration/high potency, longer you hold button the longer duration/low potency.

You might look at this and say a charge button? It's not a charge feature where the only choice is hold for best effect or tap if you opt for normal attack dps to be your damage. There is a range of choices depending on the situation and one option is not inherently better. This can be applied to defensive skills properties too.

-Combo System
Kachi this feature actually makes combat more tactile if done right. If there was no GCD you could spam whatever granted you have tp/mp which encourages spamming smaller rotations. The combo system in conjunction with GCD, if resources were balanced right forces you to pick and choose when to spam consecutive high power fast attacks. I know they altered positional requirements on combos. But every skill should have positional awareness activate a small effect on efficiency.

-Decaying skill potency
All this does is complement the GCD and combo system. Basically the more you use any skill on an enemy. The lower potency/accuracy that skill will affect that enemy. It decays at a steady rate.

-Restore incapacitation
I cannot stress how requiring breaking something unique on an enemy adds to variety. Take into account that decaying skill potency and it forces players to maybe hesitate coming out with the big guns at stupid times if they want to be most efficient. And do not make the required incapacitations only take place at the beginning. Have them spread out and inserted at pivotal moments during the battle.

-Job/Class play style or fundamental differentiation
I don't mean carbon copy XI. But alter the fundamentals of how jobs/classes play as in XI. Samurai were the masters of tp manipulation. Up until Sekkanoki was introduced. It played drastically different from other jobs. I'm at a loss for words how to convey what I mean. I am currently playing TERA and I love the free target, but fundamentally most damage classes at the core, play almost identical in their manipulation or scheme mechanics.

All the rest involves enemy variety and counters vs your counters. But that is up to the devs if they want to push that out hard.

I did not list anything besides combat because to me, combat is the most important thing I want done right. And they can always get ideas from the community for content we want to see. But combat main mechanics are probably going to be done this last time and barely touched upon again.
#85 May 29 2013 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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At first glance, all strike me as good ways to deepen combat. There might be better approaches or a better combination of approaches, but I've suggested several of those things myself (some of them directly to SE).
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 May 29 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.
#87 May 29 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.
#88 May 29 2013 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!
#89 May 29 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
Better Classes, More defined Roles, A huge upgrade in story line, originality, a deeper combat system, and a balanced strike between XI group mechanics and wow styled pick up approach to leveling.
#90 May 29 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink
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#91 May 29 2013 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
Wint wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink


Smiley: grin

Edited, May 29th 2013 4:34pm by SkinwalkerAsura
#92 May 29 2013 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Wint wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
electromagnet83 wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I would also like to see large epic battles like Besieged or tower assault/defense in campaign when you had a lot of people participating. Laggy as all hell but a ton of fun.


F.A.T.E.


True. I was thinking more along the lines of Besieged, where you could be sitting at the Adventurer's Guild in Ul'dah when a call to defend the gates goes out and everyone has to rush out and help...unless there will be FATEs like that, in which casse awesome!


Then you'll be happy I think Smiley: wink


Smiley: grin

Edited, May 29th 2013 4:34pm by SkinwalkerAsura


Smiley: nod
#93 May 29 2013 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs.


These two statements seem to be incredibly contradictory. On the one hand, you're saying FFXI could have been the mmo goliath with a couple quick number swaps on the backend... but somehow making simple BCNM battles is considerably more complex? What's so complex about programming a single battle of monster behavior when compared to basically revamping the game to make it more user friendly? Coming from a moderate coding background (trust me, I'm no expert), I'd say it's FAR easier to whip up a few BCNM style battles than it would be to reconfigure the entire game to make it more user-friendly and intuitive. Because really, those are the changes XI needed if it wanted to be on par with WoW.

Other than this statement, I do see your point about the content being a somewhat a waste of resources, considering some of it definitely wasn't balanced as well as it should have been.
#94 May 29 2013 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)
#95 May 29 2013 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.
#96 May 29 2013 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.


By the time they got to it, it was not even late, by that time, they where not even in the Radar. Would a lower XP curve helped ? Sure! The less time we had to spend in dunes spamming stuff mindlessly killing crabs would have been reduced Drastically! They dint need to remove the aggressive nature of mobs nor the aggro, but they could have lowered the HP of low level zones, just like they buffed the entire world in XIV.
#97 May 29 2013 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
FFXI could have been THE titan of MMORPGs today with just a couple of relatively simple updates to change some numbers around on the backend.

Also, you're underestimating the development time that goes into creating the BCNMs.


These two statements seem to be incredibly contradictory. On the one hand, you're saying FFXI could have been the mmo goliath with a couple quick number swaps on the backend... but somehow making simple BCNM battles is considerably more complex? What's so complex about programming a single battle of monster behavior when compared to basically revamping the game to make it more user friendly? Coming from a moderate coding background (trust me, I'm no expert), I'd say it's FAR easier to whip up a few BCNM style battles than it would be to reconfigure the entire game to make it more user-friendly and intuitive. Because really, those are the changes XI needed if it wanted to be on par with WoW.

Other than this statement, I do see your point about the content being a somewhat a waste of resources, considering some of it definitely wasn't balanced as well as it should have been.


It's a matter of return on investment. Designing a few encounters involves pulling monsters with name changes, most of the time giving them special abilities, traits, stats, or scripts, interface and menu changes, loot tables, etc. The changes I'm talking about are literally just changes to numbers and algorithms, and they would impact the entire game experience for everyone, rather than providing a half hour or less of entertainment.

BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.


I don't think having less XP per level would have really made a huge difference in subs for FFXI; it certainly didn't when they finally did get around to decreasing it and even adding in stuff like the XP bonus rings. Some of it's biggest problems were the incredibly clunky UI, the overly aggressive nature of mobs (eventually fixed, but several years down the line), and the fairly steep learning curve and unforgiving nature of some of the low level content. I'm not sure any of those things would have been such an easy fix (for instance, the UI is still incredibly archaic), especially considering they had to change it for two separate platforms.


Less XP tnl at the higher levels especially would have considerably increased player enjoyment--players could have experimented more with the vast number of classes in the game (20 now I think?) and been treated to a much wider array of playstyle experiences. But those aren't necessarily the numbers I'm talking about, either. The XP reward caps should have been set much higher to encourage players to take on much tougher monsters as a group. "Boss type" XP algorithms should have been fixed as well. I'll not go into great detail why for the umpteenth time, except to quickly say that it would have opened up a much wider variety of XP grounds, encouraged greater mobility, and provided challenge to players that wanted it while permitting the same experience for those who liked it the way it was. There were also a number of job skills and such that could have been easy fixes and were left alone for far too long.

In short, FFXI is a game with a ton of content that was poorly balanced and incentivized, and that crippled the game more than anything.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#98 May 30 2013 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think there's much point in arguing it anymore, so I'm just going to kindly disagree and drop it.
#99 May 30 2013 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)


Did you play any of the content from 1.0? Like towards the end? I felt they did a great job of creating engaging content that wasn't merely padding HP numbers. (Particularly because the engine had a hard hp cap so they had to find creative ways to make enemies harder, lol)
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#100 May 31 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
Louiscool wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Lowering the required EXP to level up, is a rather easy tweak to do, designing engaging BCNM on the other hand is rather complicated.

Why do you think not every single company is able to pump out End game encounters off the quality that blizzard does ? Because making encounters, let alone entire raids, that take into consideration every class, abilities, item combo into equation to created a balanced yet engaging encounter is not as easy as padding numbers into HP/MP (What SE is known for)


Did you play any of the content from 1.0? Like towards the end? I felt they did a great job of creating engaging content that wasn't merely padding HP numbers. (Particularly because the engine had a hard hp cap so they had to find creative ways to make enemies harder, lol)


First off the excuse of the engine is cheap... Come on! Second 3 encounters do not negate the fact that 99% of the encounters where tank & spank. Ifrit was an ok fight, nothing to be impressed with if you played wow, now is a step in the right direction which is good, but SE is an infant in making those fights, they are more known for having bosses with 45 phases, and 5 trillion HP. That was my point more or less louis XD
#101 May 31 2013 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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45 phases? I think you're mis-counting by 42. The most I've seen in FFXIV's encounters were 3 in Garuda hard mode. (5 if you count Nael Van Darnus Hard Mode) I'm unsure how many phases Ifrit Extreme had. I think he Hellfires three times but that's it.
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