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PVP Worlds...Follow

#227 Jun 03 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I come in here trying to discuss game design, confident in the point that I'm making. Other people argue my point without even understanding it, and then increasingly interpret my confidence as arrogance. I try to disengage from the debate and move towards the more civil discourse that I know and love.


This is HILARIOUS! It's actually comical because I know you believe this.

Kachi wrote:
When people show me that they can't maintain a civil conversation about video games, I lose respect for them, and become dismissive of what they have to say.


So did you lose respect for yourself?

kachi wrote:
I may not reek of humility here, but don't single me out like I'm the only one.


No you reek of ego, remember?

Now let us show who is the one to actually start this argument.



Here is what us mean and nasty people said to you...

Thayos wrote:
Really, it all boils down to this.

Most people here (possibly everyone except for Kachi) want PvE to be built open clearly defined roles in a party.

Kachi says it's better for PvE to be built upon the principles of PvP, in which any player should have a 50 percent chance of beating any other player (skill/gear ratings/etc being equal), which means jobs have to be balanced so everyone can heal/dd/tank/etc.

There is no "correct" answer to this issue... there is only what we prefer.


Parathyroid wrote:
Dude I like you, and I think you are very intelligent so I don't want to get on your or anyone's bad side here...

But I don't think anyone's getting hung up on the 1v1 idea... I feel like everyone just thinks the type of gameplay you've described is entirely unappealing. It's pretty much as simple as that.

With that said, I think your ideas would be loved by other types of gamers, but it's certainly not going to fly with a bunch of FF fans.


Which angered you soooo much, you responded with:

Kachi wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.



So tell me Kachipoo, who is the one who took a turn down insult lane, and turned this conversation from being a civil one into something else?



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 12:11pm by Parathyroid
#228 Jun 03 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol

#229 Jun 03 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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iontheable wrote:
Already guys, so Yoshi announced that while he is very interested in a incorporating a ton of PVP into FFXIV2.0 he does not like the idea of Open World PVP..

I have to say, as a hardcore PVP'er - I highly disagree with this. I would love for the options of PVP realms and PVE realms. Those that didn't want the ability to gank in open world or to be ganked would be able to roll on PVE servers.

Anyone else with me on this?


Ok I'm super late to this topic....

While I enjoyed open world pvp in SWTOR and WoW, I agree that it doesn't fit in FF. I mean, there aren't any factions, and it's extremely limiting in the playerbase, in that usually you are separated from 50% of the playerbase.

But, they really could implement it like Ballista, except you know, make it so the players actually use it. Where the factions are engaging in skirmishes to strengthen themselves to face the threat of the empire, or something.

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#230 Jun 03 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Kachi wrote:
I feel like I'm trying to explain evolution to people who never took biology.


Kind of reminds me of the beginning of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," when young Indiana stumbles out of the cave, realizes he's alone and on the run, and blurts out: "Everybody's lost but me."
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#231 Jun 03 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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I just read the entire thread and I think I can sum it up:

When we are arguing the PVP value of whm, all it tells me is that we really need more NDA lifted so we have something else to talk about.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 1:15pm by Louiscool
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#232 Jun 03 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol


I've played dozens of mmo's, from p2p, f2p, pve focused, pvp focused, you name it. So your logic is completely wrong there. Not to mention, considering he has zero experience designing mmo's specifically (unless it's something he just neglected to mention before when specifically asked about his design backgroun), he has no more knowledge of the "correct" way to balance them over anyone else. In fact, when I was planning to design my own mmo I did an entire semester's worth of research on the gameplay and design structures for mmo's for an independent study. So no, you are 100% wrong in your logic of this post.
#233 Jun 03 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.
#234 Jun 03 2013 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
It is hypocritical as best.
Says the person whose previous post to Kachi was ridiculously condescending.
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#235 Jun 03 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol


I've played dozens of mmo's, from p2p, f2p, pve focused, pvp focused, you name it. So your logic is completely wrong there. Not to mention, considering he has zero experience designing mmo's specifically (unless it's something he just neglected to mention before when specifically asked about his design backgroun), he has no more knowledge of the "correct" way to balance them over anyone else. In fact, when I was planning to design my own mmo I did an entire semester's worth of research on the gameplay and design structures for mmo's for an independent study. So no, you are 100% wrong in your logic of this post.


I am pretty sure you where not the only one engaged in argument with Kachi... But if you felt my comment was towards you specifically... Meh! Not Really!

Also if you have played all those types of games, then how come his argument flew by you ? Even if you pay little to no attention to PVP in a game, just by reading the patch updates you can see, how nerfing/buffing classes works, specially when you spent so much time doing your own research, his argument should have been clear to you, instead you spend half the time switching between PVP/PVE and complaining on who won or lost Smiley: lol

#236 Jun 03 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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I understood his argument from the first time he explained it. Did you? Based on everything you've posted in this thread, I'm guessing not.
#237 Jun 03 2013 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.


People here demean the intelligence of every other poster they dont agree with every day, you people just like cherry picking when you feel entitled to feel offended and againt's who.
#238 Jun 03 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol
#239 Jun 03 2013 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem Smiley: lol



Ostia, what does it matter how disparaging the comments are? It was obviously used to demean he intelligence of everyone in disagreement... which is fine, it's an internet forum it happens all the time.

The point is, don't sit here on your ivory tower telling us you've lost respect for those who can't have a civil conversation when in fact you are the one is showing absolutely no respect to the individuals in the conversation. It is hypocritical as best.


People here demean the intelligence of every other poster they dont agree with every day, you people just like cherry picking when you feel entitled to feel offended and againt's who.


No. Kachi said he loses respect for those who can't have a civil conversation... Not one person made a demeaning remark until he did. Which is entirely hypocritical... it's pretty cut and dry.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said I don't care if he insults me... It becomes hilarious when you talk sh*t about people for doing what you JUST did.


lolgaxe wrote:
Says the person whose previous post to Kachi was ridiculously condescending.


I'm not the one saying "I lose respect for those who can't have a civil conversation." About 2 hours after I made the first insult in the conversation.

He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.

Ostia wrote:
I have seen 50 people use far more insulting words than that... And he is right, it is like explaining evolution to somebody that never took biology.... Technically is explaining current MMO mechanics, to people that only played XI... Which is most of the problem


Well hold on now, I thought the whole point is that MMOs are screwed up in general, and us as fans could never POSSIBLY understand how the mechanics should work...

If that's true, then why even engage in the conversation? Is it just to prove how much you know?



Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:19pm by Parathyroid
#240 Jun 03 2013 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol


Yeah, actually I did. I didn't agree with it. There's a difference. This on the other hand...
Ostia wrote:
also you guys need to relax a bit before posting, and actually think on what you are commenting, you are talking about healers in the PVE sense, when kachi is talking about it in a PVP sense,


Talk about being /whooshed. Seems like you didn't even read his premise, since the entire thing revolved around only using PvP as a stepping stone to balance PvE.

#241 Jun 03 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:23pm by Parathyroid
#242 Jun 03 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Parathyroid wrote:
He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.
"He started it" doesn't exactly work with my four year old daughter when she fights the dog.
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#243 Jun 03 2013 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistake ><

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 3:20pm by Hatamaz
#244 Jun 03 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Parathyroid wrote:
He deserves to be talked down to, it's how he treats everyone else, and I think you deserve what you give.
"He started it" doesn't exactly work with my four year old daughter when she fights the dog.


No, wow, now I know how Kachi feels.

I made the initial comment because Kachi said he looks down on those who start fights (paraphrasing) when in fact he is the one who made the demeaning comments. It is by definition, literally the definition, hypocrisy.
#245 Jun 03 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Actually you know what, this is absolutely asinine.

I apologize to Kachi for going back and forth with you.

To Ostia for the same.

To LolGAxe, I don't know... your avatar just makes me think you are really scary in real life, so I apologize.

And to all of ZAM for polluting the forums with this brand of crap which has consisted of the last 100 posts or so here.
#246 Jun 03 2013 at 1:12 PM Rating: Default
Hatamaz wrote:
Ostia wrote:
The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes


Now wait just a minute, I thought you and Kachi were wanting every class to basically have a 50/50 chance of winning against each other going toe to toe in PvP with the balance coming from some really complicated magical mathematical algorithm on the backend?

I swear it really sounds like the perfect game for you would be DCUO. They strike the kind of balance you describe above.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2013 2:35pm by Hatamaz


I did not say that, that was a quote from BartelX.
#247 Jun 03 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
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I see that now. I apologize.

Valid excuse. I'm working nights and just woke up! Quote boxes are not my friend.
#248 Jun 03 2013 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
Holy cow...What did I start?

Apparently people are more passionate about PVP than I thought :P
#249 Jun 03 2013 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
BartelX wrote:
Ostia wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.

When you have those high value units in the game, encounter balance must be tuned higher to preserve the challenge of the game. That means that parties of low value units can't clear the content. That's what results in people sitting around with their thumbs up their asses for a high value unit (like a WHM) to appear so that they can experience content.


Ah I see now. To you, EVERY game is just poorly designed. Smiley: lol Sorry to break it you, but every single MMO I've ever played has classes that are just more important or higher value than others. If they were all evenly balanced, it would be the most boring game in existence, because there would be absolutely no point in playing other classes. You can't get a tactical advantage on anyone, because everyone has the same inherent optimum ability. Sorry, that's just ridiculous.

The way a game SHOULD work is that certain classes have distinct advantages over certain other classes based on their inherent abilities, but those other classes outshine them in other ways and have advantages over other classes. Basically the rock paper scissors idea. Every mmo I've played has this.


Yes clearly you understood everything he said huh ? Smiley: lol


Yeah, actually I did. I didn't agree with it. There's a difference. This on the other hand...
Ostia wrote:
also you guys need to relax a bit before posting, and actually think on what you are commenting, you are talking about healers in the PVE sense, when kachi is talking about it in a PVP sense,


Talk about being /whooshed. Seems like you didn't even read his premise, since the entire thing revolved around only using PvP as a stepping stone to balance PvE.



Hahaha! Actually you did not even comprehend what he said, if you did, you would not have written that reply, you do know that you are actually agreeing with him Smiley: lol Again please do read
Quote:
Lack of available high value units (e.g. healers, tanks) is a widely accepted problem in most MMOs, not just my opinion.


That is a factual statement, you do not have to agree, is a fact, you only have to accept It. See you like to argue giving your opinion, so that others give theirs and in the case you cannot disprove the other persons opinions, you back off and agree to disagree, but sadly he stated a fact, and you basically agreed with him, you just stated it as "In my opinion it should be like that" and he stated it as "Yes is a problem, but we have come to accept it"

Which again is a fact, the Wow dev team has said so countless times, the perfect example was when they introduced the server wide party feature, Tanks/healers had waiting times of 1-10 seconds, DD's had waiting times of 30 Minutes, thus you have the majority of the population waiting on a minority, that is a problem. Why do you think in Swotor every class had a healing abilitie ? Or that GW2 moved away from the trinity ? All this games have seen the problem and have tried to address it in their own ways, have they come up with the perfect solution ? Nope! But they are all trying in their own way.
#250 Jun 03 2013 at 1:46 PM Rating: Default
Parathyroid wrote:
Actually you know what, this is absolutely asinine.

I apologize to Kachi for going back and forth with you.

To Ostia for the same.

To LolGAxe, I don't know... your avatar just makes me think you are really scary in real life, so I apologize.

And to all of ZAM for polluting the forums with this brand of crap which has consisted of the last 100 posts or so here.


Relax is an internet forum, people can get a bit carried away, i dont think anybody was overboard, you guys are just passionate about the discussion, i have no problem with that Smiley: lol
#251 Jun 03 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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IKickYoDog wrote:
They just need to hurry up and make Persona Arena / Mortal Kombat Online / Street Fighter Online and call it a day Smiley: laugh


Wrong! Pokemon MMO plz.
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