Message from Yoshi-P on battle system adjustmentsFollow

If it turns out I can just click on the Duty Finder and generally get things done quickly without pulling my hair out, fine. What I don't want is endgame to be having to show up 8pm every night for 4 hours, mandatory voice chat, and basically being a slave to player-run point systems if in-game currency/participation tracking isn't present. My schedule simply isn't stable, and if the first thought one might evoke is that, "This game isn't for you, then..." my prompt, blunt, and emphatic response is, ********** you."

It is inevitable that I will level all the classes I enjoy to cap, but then what? Where's the fun in guild hopping with no guarantee you'll find a group that suits your needs? Why pay a sub for a game where you may only effectively progress a couple nights out of 30 days? There are only two reasons to "prevent" such progress, and only one of them is legit. The first one is dev time/resources. Forgive me for believing this not an issue for SE, all things considered. The second reason, and ultimately BS, are those who can group without difficulty/are lucky don't want people who can't being at all comparable in gear/potential.

If it's unclear what I'm getting at, then perhaps this example will help. Take 2 players, both can play 3 hours a day. The first one logs in every day at 7pm, has no interruptions, and logs off at 10pm. He has decent flexibility when it comes to waiting in queues/LFG. Forming a static party for various things is also more likely. As for the second player, they're not so lucky. They sneak in a half hour before work, perhaps. They come home, play an hour, and then take care of dinner and perhaps some other things around the house. They sneak in another half hour, but then have to put their kids to bed. After that, they manage another 30 minutes before going to bed, themselves. At any point during that span, though, they could be interrupted by their family. Comparably speaking, both players are of equal skill. Yet, since the second is more pinched for time, they're "doomed" to mediocrity if no options of late game advancement are present to match their pace.

I don't think that's cool, no matter how much the first person or those like him feels the second doesn't "need" the same stuff. We all want our characters to grow socially and statistically. And over time, people of the first type are far less likely to want to play with the second if there's no incentive, and why should they? Teaching people can be a pain. Unequal gear could mean a mediocre tank incapable of keeping a mob off a strong damage dealer. There's a certain irony to demanding the social element outright killing itself if people can't keep up, and it only gets worse the more layers of tiering you add on.

So, if Yoshi is truly mindful of the social element, and not just Japanese customs, he best realize the divides he risks ushering.

Cross server.

...but region-specific.

We spent 15 minutes just mindlessly jumping on Goobue back, just to be jerks.

XI is more like

ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+ tp)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)
CTRL 4 (JA that boosts damage or somesuch
CTRL 3 (JA that boosts defense or somesuch)
ALT 1 (wait 20 seconds for 100+tp)

With the occasional extra macro in there for gear sets if you didn't have a Spellcast XML set up to take care of that automatically.

Oh, and mages were like

F2
CTRL 8 (haste)
F3
CTRL 8
F4
CTRL 5 (cure V)
CTRL 8 (haste)

or
ALT 5 (elegy)
CTRL 9 (march)
ALT 9 (march
ALT 2 + enter (horde lullaby)
CTRL 0 (ballad)
ALT 0 (ballad)
Rinse
Repeat

Any MMORPG will either have you doing proactive button mashing for buffs, or reactive button mashing for damage or cures. Either way it's still mashing buttons on a keyboard or a controller.

This is very true except if you have analog pressure sensitive controls or triple context keys. Which I don't think they can add for every key on a keyboard.
This is why I keep asking for a skill modifier function to fine tune skills as they come out. It changes the flow from just smack key/spam rotation/watch cooldown.

And now we interrupt this message with an advertisement!:

Why? It's not because they're anti-social, are horrible players, or don't have friends (who may not all be on in their split play times). Seriously, what is wrong with the option? I'd even argue it's a bit bait-and-switch if someone can go to cap via questing solo, only to have nothing more they can do than repeat the process on another class. Phat lewt might be the motivator to unite strangers, but even a matchmaking system doesn't solve the problems of getting people together (flood of DPS, no tanks or healers ring a bell?).


Not that I've found, but you've somewhat exemplified why. People are simply told to go elsewhere and we maybe get 1-3 MMOs a year if they don't flop for reasons not tied to this issue to really establish an endgame. A lot console games also have incredibly short lifespans for their price, of which people may turn to MMOs for cost efficient entertainment. I'd also argue it's a bit problematic that people who were playing MMOs 10 years or so ago are potentially the ones making them today, especially if coming at it from the hardcore mindset. So, it's nice Yoshi tries to look at things from the player and producer perspectives, but I would hope what I've mentioned crossed the mind of the latter. Fundamentally, more customers will mean more money. And while everyone has their own varied tastes and preferences, more money will allow them to produce more content. The MMO scene does not need another "raiders rule the roost" game. WoW does it. Rift does it. FFXI is gravitating toward it. TERA does it. GW2 does it. Unfortunately, there's a silent majority in all these games that are subject to the whims of vocal minorities who feel they're the most deserving of focus even if statistics show that a very small percentage of players have beaten a game's current top-tier content, let alone mid-tier. And arguably it's not because people aren't interested, it's because finding the bodies of he right jobs/classes at the right times are a perpetual cockblock, especially if you play at off-peak hours.

A game can still be multi-player without directly playing with or against others. Give the alternate progression strong ties to crafting without requiring raid drops and you can establish an economy that wouldn't be there if it's actually dungeon/raid drops > all. That way, if someone does get the chance to tag along in the big boy content, they have the means to not be total gimplets. It also strengthens the potential PUG pool. Let's also not forget the game boasts a lot of jobs/classes. Meaningful things to do for your off-jobs between the big content for your main isn't a bad thing, either. For the pathetically small fraction of players who "beat the game" by getting everything in a current patch/build and then ***** about having nothing to do really only have themselves to blame. They can find another game for a change.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 1:49pm by Seriha

Because the business model of MMOs requires a high level of engagement over a long period of time, and the only way any one has found to do that in the context of a persistent world is through social engagement. In the context of an MMO world this either means large scale enforced PvP or large scale enforced PvE.

Your hypothetical player has a lifestyle which prevents them from being able to plan their time in pre scheduled blocks, which prevents them from being engaged with a large group. For the same reason, your hypothetical player is probably not able to attend formal dinner parties, join recreational sports leagues, take night classes, or do any number of other activities designed to engage large groups of people.

Single player and match based games have a business model typically predicated on selling boxes. They don't need your social engagement to keep you playing and paying a subscription for a long time, so the game design facilitates players who play in smaller, irregular chunks of time. Which fits neatly with your time stretched hypothetical player.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 2:46pm by KarlHungis

I don't care how many times I have to press a button. As long as I actually have to pay attention to what sequence I'm pressing them in. But yes some games do complain about carpal tunnel or being uncomfortable with too much action.

The only time I find a game to be a "button masher" is when the button you press is of no consequence, or that there is only one button that matters. It'd be as if THM was completely capable of doing 95% max damage by simply casting Blizzard I over and over. Or worse, WoW/Rift macros where you simply spam the one key over and over (I remember when Hunter was OP in BC and all you had to do was bind one skill to your scroll wheel and profit). That's not fun. That's not dynamic. I want choices and so far I've seen them in ARR combat, but I haven't seen the end of the game. I'd really want to experience the whole ride and that, for me, is worth a few months of subscription. Maybe in three months I'll find it "meh", but I've seen enough in beta to make me want to sub right now. Me, not you, not the other guy, but I'm willing to put dollars behind the game right now for the ride.

Is the game so innovative that I'm compelled to play? No. Is the combat so riveting that all other games pale in comparison? No. Is it fun, engaging, with a story worth investing some of my free time into? Hell yes. That's all I want out of a game. I don't need it to be everything to me for it to be worth the time and effort.

By this logic, a burger flipper shouldn't be able to buy a car a doctor would because a doctor makes way more money a year no matter how many hours the burger flipper actually works and saves. 3 hours, in my hypothetical, is 3 hours. "My time > Your time" is not conducive to social interaction. It's segregating. This isn't a physical sport where being a fatty makes you a detriment to your team. We're people sitting in front of our PCs or consoles clicking buttons and watching our screens. We pay the same sub fees. Getting something done in 30-60m isn't an unreasonable expectation. Demanding 3 consecutive hours every night, however, is pushing it.


Again, there's nothing saying people won't make friends if they're like the second player. When I played XI, sure I did game talk, but there were also a lot of personal conversations that went on in private. Some friends I've even made here and talk with over AIM. You don't need Leroy Jenkins scenarios to bond to others with, or raids, or even being in a huge guild. The assumption that longevity can't be achieved if solo options are viable is just that, an assumption. Clapping your hands together and going, "Nope, can't be done!" under the pretext that one player is more important than another is a toxic perspective to be running with and part of what makes the strength of the genre its most glaring fault. I can sit here and say I'd rather not play with people like you and Karl because you're more keen on excluding potential players, but in the end you won't care because the lack of empathy is precisely why I'm disinterested in helping people such as yourself advance their own agendas and perpetuate the falsehood that MMOs aren't for everyone. These are evolving, expanding worlds. There's room. Stop being so concerned that someone you'll never play with might actually be competitive by doing what best suits their schedule.





Now, I know some people disliked the Magian system in XI, but at a skeletal level, it's basically something that could work to pull this off. Add a better layer of questing to it beyond, "A MOOGLE DID IT!" with piecemeal objectives an individual can tackle while avoiding **** phases like heavy metal plates or other unreasonable gil sinks and you have a winner.

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 6:42pm by Seriha

Fair enough. To go with the burger flipper and doctor analogy, both guys can absolutely buy a car. but a burger flipper is not going to be buying a $80,000 luxury car and shouldn't be expecting to while a doctor can.

I didn't mean to imply there shouldn't be any content for the solo player or they shouldn't have their way of endgame progression. Just saying, the ultimate endgame content will have to be for groups. And as it is, solo players have content don't they? Crafting is solo. Spiritbonding/Melding materia can be done solo.

And Seriha, never did I say a guy with less time to play can't make friends or I am clapping my hands and saying they should be excluded. I probably didn't word it well, but my point was if they are expecting to get the full MMO experience, there will need to be some time commitment. I am not judging or excluding anyone. If they want to play on their own time and solo the whole game, go right ahead. It doesn't affect anyone else. You won't see or experience 100% of the game, but thats ok. Most people don't experience 100% of a MMO. I really am not concerned that someone else is going to be competitive. You seem to be approaching this discussion with a pre-built hostility towards anyone who is not going to support your PoV 100%

Glad someone else gets it. Sometimes I feel alone amongst forum jockeys because the type of players I'm white knighting for aren't likely to be in forums extensively to begin with. Rare for a first post, heh.


This isn't a new subject for me, and I fear I've seen it all. While things haven't quite devolved into "lern2play n00b" status, I've found it inevitably does when someone feels their precious snowflake status is being threatened by a dirty casual. I'll also disagree that seeing 100% of the game should be unlikely. Again, we're all paying to play. Do you rent a movie only to see 80% of it? Buy a large pizza to eat 2 slices and throw the rest away? Our games shouldn't be different here, but the less control an individual has on their progress, the further they creep away from 100% consumption. Some people may be okay with that. Personally, I have no interest in PvP. But we can't forget the game's core is the combat system, and with that comes gear to make yourself better. I also know fluff stuff like housing or collecting pets won't appeal to me, for a mix of no combat benefit and the concept of RPing largely being a pipe dream in the MMO sphere (because RP doesn't reward loot~) And again, I'll level the classes I'm interested in, and maybe all of them eventually, but as long as quests, FATEs, log books, and so on give EXP, capping is inevitable. Game Over? I'd hope not. Waiting 3+ months until something else comes along? I'd like to avoid that, too.


Nay, ye must suffereth for thine compulsion for leetness!

Edited, Jun 24th 2013 7:43pm by Seriha