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Tanks Trolling the DFFollow

#77 Jan 14 2014 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Strangerous wrote:
I really wish they made tanking and healing in these games more...entertaining. There has got to be a way to do it.

Tanks and healers get instant queues while I sit and wait for 55min. Sigh..

My guess is that tank was most likely looking for his favorite composition for the run...which is strange because he could just start a goup in chat and just wait the 15-30min it takes to reserve a spot on the duty server rather than rolling the dice.

Wait....

If you are the first to leave a dungeon you get a 15min lock out...

So on second thought...how the hell was he leaving then joining over and over?



Well the thing is whm and tanks really are harder jobs,.. But instead of doing things to make whm and pld more appealing they make them harder with like the end fight in pharos sirius. does to whm... I watch the drops too in like ct and the are almost always ARC or DRG and rarely WHM or PLD, or WAR. Give people a reason to play these jobs, give them special equipment, or mounts or some incentive to get people too play these jobs instead of beating up on them..


blowfin wrote:
One big step to fix this would be SE making "Join in progress" mutually exclusive from "Join new run" (i.e. the default).

The other problem at the moment is people wanting to get into Roulette with their friends/hubbies etc. They basically keep rolling DF groups until they end up in the same party. Again, not really their fault that it annoys everyone else.


Never thought of this but you are probably right..

What is weird is the other night we qued up for ct and got a party in 5 min.. but fior the next 20 min every 30 seconds we got some dropped from the party. Everytime we que up for ct this happens but not as extreme.. Why que up if you are not going to run it really... It is not just tanks though...




Edited, Jan 14th 2014 11:27am by Nashred
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#78 Jan 14 2014 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
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KojiroSoma wrote:
What are we really talking about though...?

Someone joins and leaves even 10 times, who cares. eventually he'll go away and/or stop when he/she realizes there arent any in progress groups going on, and 2 minutes later a new tank will have joined regardless.

Is it anoying? sure, slightly.

Will it stop you from getting a duty? No. It wont reset or quit your place in the queue, once you're first in line, you stay first in line till every role has the right amount of people who are also first in line and the duty starts.

I'm starting to think people are getting too frustrated about this. More than it should.


You don't know how the queue works do you? It can and dose reset your place in the queue. As a dps you are waiting 90% of the time on a tank. If you get into a CT queu and a tank drops guess what the DF system dose. It dose not keep you in the same party and look for more members. No in fact it will look for other groups that need x or y class and queue you up with them. As a tank that's no big deal. The tanks in the queue are matched in seconds with another group. For the dps on the other hand it means the loss of the tanks you are waiting on. This can mean another 30-40 mins of DF trying to match you up with a group.

I have had this happen to me on my BRD many times. I will get queued up and someone will withdraw now that wont be so bad the first time. But tanks are fishing for 3/4 groups so this happens 5 or 6 times. after the 6th withdraw ill sit there another 30 mins waiting on you guessed it tanks. Then ill get queued up again see 3 or 4 withdraws and then at last get into CT.

I don't care how you paint it this is trolling. Really the best way to fix this is make it much harder to rage quit a group. make the lockout time 1 or 2 hours not 30 min.. give people a 30 min lockout for withdrawing from DF. and git rid of the join already in progress BS. if the group fails it fails end of story. Try again. Really if you do this there is nothing for the people to fish for so there is no reason for them to be withdrawing and no reason for a 30 min lockout.

And I am sorry but this BS of I am the tank/healer so I should be aloud to do this because I play a selfless class and am helping people is just BS. you are no better than anyone else. I play a WHM because I love it and find it fun to play. I am not doing it because I am a selfless person.In fact I am a jerk and if I did not find healer fun to play I would not play it. In fact anyone claiming to play a tank/healer and not enjoy it.. Well most likely that's the ones you don't want to group with anyway.
#79 Jan 14 2014 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sethern79 wrote:
You don't know how the queue works do you? It can and dose reset your place in the queue. As a dps you are waiting 90% of the time on a tank. If you get into a CT queu and a tank drops guess what the DF system dose. It dose not keep you in the same party and look for more members. No in fact it will look for other groups that need x or y class and queue you up with them.

My experience has been the opposite of what you're saying. I may wait a half hour initially in DF and then be informed that a group has been formed. If a party member then withdraws, I will usually see a new notification about a group being formed in less than a minute. If it reset my place in the queue, I would consistently have to wait an additional half hour each time a member withdraws at this point, and that has not been the case.
#80 Jan 14 2014 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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It can reset your place in queue, but it doesn't always and certainly not right away. My experience is that only happens after several commence duty messages get withdrawn. I think it is actually an error with the Duty Finder when that does happen.

For instance, I queued for Brayflox as a Warrior and the same healer repeatedly withdrew from the duty so many times in a row until the duty finder kicked me out of the queue. This repeated 5 or so times until I just gave up and went to sleep. My guess is, since it was so late at night that there were only 4 people interested in running Brayflox within my World/Server cluster. And one of us kept withdrawing until the duty finder just spat us out altogether.
#81 Jan 14 2014 at 11:20 PM Rating: Good
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nonameoflevi wrote:
Several times this weekend I was in DF, me as healer and 2 DD ready to go. The DF pops and someone withdraws right away (Tank). It pops again and withdraws right away. It pops again and withdraws right away ad nasuem. Each time it was the tank slot. One time it pops, we get inside, and the tank drops. Was this an isolated incidence this weekend or did others come across this? Maybe YOU where one of the Tanks in question!


What this actually is:

Tanks or any other insta-queue jobs can tell if the DF is starting from the start, or join in progress. So, they want in progress, for a faster run in roulette. They cancel when they see its starting, not in-progress.

It's annoying, and happens ALL THE TIME in CT. I hate it, and they should be penalized for declining.
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#82KojiroSoma, Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 5:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sounds like you are the one who does not understand how Duty Finder works in FFXIV. Here's why you shouldnt get your panties in a bunch so much.
#83 Jan 15 2014 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
What this actually is:

Tanks or any other insta-queue jobs can tell if the DF is starting from the start, or join in progress. So, they want in progress, for a faster run in roulette. They cancel when they see its starting, not in-progress.

It's annoying, and happens ALL THE TIME in CT. I hate it, and they should be penalized for declining.


Except, it's a godsend when tanks join mid-battle when someone drops (or gets kicked), and that wouldn't happen expediently unless tanks were actively looking for in-progress fights to join. Plus, there's a serious tank shortage as it is. Adding any sort of penalties to tanks would only make that problem worse, and wait times longer for everyone.

The problem is with the system being annoying, and not the tanks. I know there's plans in the works to make seeking in-progress fights exclusive from fresh ones which should solve the problem.
#84 Jan 16 2014 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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Xoie wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
What this actually is:

Tanks or any other insta-queue jobs can tell if the DF is starting from the start, or join in progress. So, they want in progress, for a faster run in roulette. They cancel when they see its starting, not in-progress.

It's annoying, and happens ALL THE TIME in CT. I hate it, and they should be penalized for declining.


Except, it's a godsend when tanks join mid-battle when someone drops (or gets kicked), and that wouldn't happen expediently unless tanks were actively looking for in-progress fights to join.

Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Don't grant a reward at the end of a dungeon as a bonus. Divide it up among the bosses in the instance. That's the only way to reward people evenly for their contribution and you don't have to penalize anyone. The bottom line is that people won't participate unless they have incentive. You can't load all that incentive at the end of something that allows people to start at different intervals. C'mon SE Smiley: oyvey

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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#85 Jan 16 2014 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Not sure if it's been said or not but the real reason for this is tanks trying to spam already in progress dungeon queues, trying to get into a dungeon on the last boss and bypass the rest of the dungeon to get their myth. That's all it is, not that it's a good thing. I guess someone should tell these tryhards to calm themselves since there isn't enough elite content to devote that saved time to.
#86 Jan 16 2014 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I thought i would add a new tactic.

So apparently the new cool thing to do is to force DC when you zone into a HL DF Roulette if its not WP/AK. Had 3 different healers all do this to us last night in Pharos, again in HM hard, and then finally in copper bell.

You dc for 5 minutes, are auto booted, and suffer no penalty. And apparently healers arent big into joining in progress runs cause we waited 30 minutes at the zone in to each instance before we would drop.
#87 Jan 16 2014 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Anyone who bails on Haukke HM is almost guaranteed to be a failure anyway

The other two are a bit more justifiable

Strangely though, the only time yet I've had someone bail before the start of a run was for that Halatali run I mentioned above. Gotten Copperbell once and Pharos twice, but each time everyone toughed it out.

Edited, Jan 16th 2014 10:08am by Fynlar
#88 Jan 16 2014 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Actually Fynlar I find the opposite to be true.

Haukke HM requires very high DD for the final boss, it may be the shortest of the new dungeons but if you dont have 2x relic+1 dd it can be rough. I am a firm believer that there is a trick to the first/last boss in Haukke manor and we just havent figured it out. I say this because Copper bell/Pharos are SUPER easy now that I know the tricks to every boss. Like i48 is actually a fair ilevel for those dungeons since there is no super DPS race at any point.
#89 Jan 16 2014 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Don't grant a reward at the end of a dungeon as a bonus. Divide it up among the bosses in the instance. That's the only way to reward people evenly for their contribution and you don't have to penalize anyone. The bottom line is that people won't participate unless they have incentive. You can't load all that incentive at the end of something that allows people to start at different intervals. C'mon SE Smiley: oyvey

But once you remove the big carrot for joining in progress (all of the myths for potentially only small amount of time and effort), will there be enough incentive for people to ever use join in progress? Take the different reasons why a group needs to fill a spot once they are already inside:
1) A party member d/c'ed or had to leave unexpectedly.
2) The party was so dysfunctional that one or more party members decided it was better to abandon the group and start over.

I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I'd bet that case #2 happens far more often than #1. Why take the risk of winding up in a situation like #2 when the best case scenario is potentially getting less myth than doing a full run? Tanks are so in-demand that they tend to hold their random DF groups to a higher standard, and thus #2 probably happens more often with the tank slot than other slots. So if you were a tank, why would you risk joining in progress any more? On the other end of the spectrum, DPS have such long queue times that it would have to be a truly horrific party in a doomed run for a DPS to abandon the group. If you were a DPS, why would you risk joining in progress any more?

If there's no additional incentive to join in progress over starting fresh, the join in progress option will probably become something that people only use to bail out a friend that's stuck inside a dungeon without a full group.
#90 Jan 16 2014 at 2:01 PM Rating: Default
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svlyons wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Don't grant a reward at the end of a dungeon as a bonus. Divide it up among the bosses in the instance. That's the only way to reward people evenly for their contribution and you don't have to penalize anyone. The bottom line is that people won't participate unless they have incentive. You can't load all that incentive at the end of something that allows people to start at different intervals. C'mon SE Smiley: oyvey

But once you remove the big carrot for joining in progress (all of the myths for potentially only small amount of time and effort), will there be enough incentive for people to ever use join in progress? Take the different reasons why a group needs to fill a spot once they are already inside:
1) A party member d/c'ed or had to leave unexpectedly.
2) The party was so dysfunctional that one or more party members decided it was better to abandon the group and start over.


You're not removing incentive, just spreading it out. That way people are getting rewarded based on their contribution. Incentive to join either a fresh run or one already in progress is equal. If there is more of a reward for one or the other then people will continue to try and get more reward for less effort. That's the underlying issue here.

The problem needs to be solved on the front end. You need to be looking at why people do or do not join dungeons, not why they leave. #1 is just a fact of life. #2 should be handled by a vote to kick feature.
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#91 Jan 16 2014 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The better way to do it is make mytho based on what % of mobs (boss + trash) you helped kill, and give a secondary reward for joining in progress. Like + 3 commendations if you join in progress and then they finish the run.
#92 Jan 16 2014 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
dustinfoley wrote:
The better way to do it is make mytho based on what % of mobs (boss + trash) you helped kill, and give a secondary reward for joining in progress. Like + 3 commendations if you join in progress and then they finish the run.


What about the healers? Smiley: mad There are some trash mobs I don't get a chance to tag before a DPS mows them down.

Unless by "help" you mean "is in the party when it dies," then okay.

Edited, Jan 16th 2014 4:04pm by Catwho
#93 Jan 16 2014 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
dustinfoley wrote:
The better way to do it is make mytho based on what % of mobs (boss + trash) you helped kill, and give a secondary reward for joining in progress. Like + 3 commendations if you join in progress and then they finish the run.


What about the healers? Smiley: mad There are some trash mobs I don't get a chance to tag before a DPS mows them down.

Unless by "help" you mean "is in the party when it dies," then okay.


Too much trouble to break down all the instances by percentage. Much easier and just as effective to spread the bonus across the bosses rather than every mob. That way people don't get dinged for skipping trash either.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#94 Jan 16 2014 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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i just don't think that there is a real fix that doesn't hose everyone and as much as people complain things could be way worse with some of your suggestions an things are not that bad.

if there is no incentive to join a inprogress dungeon then no tanks will join, simple as that. and that annoying 10 min withdrawal is going to seem really nice then having a tank drop mid dungeon and now you wasted 30 mins in the que, 30 min in the dungeon, and now another 30 min back in que and 45 mins to run the dungeon just to get your what 30 or 50 myth.

the true cause of the problem is everyone wants to play a career dps and have alts that are dps as well. so to me it seems like a self inflected problem and if you want the problem fixed just level a tank job so there are more tanks in the population. i play a pld and use it to gear my drg as it stands now i really have no reason to run dungeons or use df for anything other then CT and one HL duty roulette.

coil gives me 150 myth, i usually takes me about 3 runs of ct to get the piece i want and i do one HL dutty roulette and that right there is about 390 out of 450 tomes and the rest i can pick up doing ulitma and primals. and when my fc can down T5 ill have on reason to ever use df to run dungeons, so if you keep adding stiffer penalties to df to a population that is in so high demand and such short supply and with a party finder system that they can fill quickly that would just leave the vast majority of dps looking for parties with even longer wait times.
#95 Jan 16 2014 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
svlyons wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Seems like a no-brainer to me...

Don't grant a reward at the end of a dungeon as a bonus. Divide it up among the bosses in the instance. That's the only way to reward people evenly for their contribution and you don't have to penalize anyone. The bottom line is that people won't participate unless they have incentive. You can't load all that incentive at the end of something that allows people to start at different intervals. C'mon SE Smiley: oyvey

But once you remove the big carrot for joining in progress (all of the myths for potentially only small amount of time and effort), will there be enough incentive for people to ever use join in progress? Take the different reasons why a group needs to fill a spot once they are already inside:
1) A party member d/c'ed or had to leave unexpectedly.
2) The party was so dysfunctional that one or more party members decided it was better to abandon the group and start over.

You're not removing incentive, just spreading it out. That way people are getting rewarded based on their contribution. Incentive to join either a fresh run or one already in progress is equal. If there is more of a reward for one or the other then people will continue to try and get more reward for less effort. That's the underlying issue here.

You're spreading out the incentive to do the dungeon. But that's completely different from the incentive to join in progress. What's the incentive to join in progress? For DPS, the incentive tends to be reduced seek time. But it also carries with it the risk that you wind up joining an empty or mostly empty group and having to simply re-queue. Tanks don't need to join in progress to reduce seek time. So what is the incentive for them to choose the option to join in progress?

If there's no additional incentive for joining in progress, players won't have a reason to choose that option because of the risks that come with it.
#96 Jan 16 2014 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Joining a dungeon in progress is forced in every other MMO I can think of. Why is it optional in XIV? Hmmm... Smiley: grin

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make was only in regard to roulette rewards being used as incentive to run instances. Queues will always be problematic because of the population spread. The suggestion I made was to keep roulette from complicating those problems.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#97 Jan 17 2014 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Louiscool wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Several times this weekend I was in DF, me as healer and 2 DD ready to go. The DF pops and someone withdraws right away (Tank). It pops again and withdraws right away. It pops again and withdraws right away ad nasuem. Each time it was the tank slot. One time it pops, we get inside, and the tank drops. Was this an isolated incidence this weekend or did others come across this? Maybe YOU where one of the Tanks in question!


What this actually is:

Tanks or any other insta-queue jobs can tell if the DF is starting from the start, or join in progress. So, they want in progress, for a faster run in roulette. They cancel when they see its starting, not in-progress.



I don't get why these people even play the game if they don't want to do the content.

#98 Jan 17 2014 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Louiscool wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Several times this weekend I was in DF, me as healer and 2 DD ready to go. The DF pops and someone withdraws right away (Tank). It pops again and withdraws right away. It pops again and withdraws right away ad nasuem. Each time it was the tank slot. One time it pops, we get inside, and the tank drops. Was this an isolated incidence this weekend or did others come across this? Maybe YOU where one of the Tanks in question!


What this actually is:

Tanks or any other insta-queue jobs can tell if the DF is starting from the start, or join in progress. So, they want in progress, for a faster run in roulette. They cancel when they see its starting, not in-progress.

It's annoying, and happens ALL THE TIME in CT. I hate it, and they should be penalized for declining.


Ha I posted this before there was roulette in game.
#99 Jan 17 2014 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone can tell if a dungeon is in progress. When the box pops up that tells you it's ready there are yellow/gold numbers that will say 1/3 or 0/4... which tells you how many bosses have been downed out of the total. You get no penalty if you withdraw when the box pops up... and no penalty if you go in and withdraw from a group in progress.
#100 Jan 17 2014 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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squiress wrote:
I don't get why these people even play the game if they don't want to do the content.

After doing WP dozens and dozens of times already, can you blame them for wanting to make the most of their time? You don't even get to do unusual oddball strategies with DF runs.
#101 Jan 17 2014 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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svlyons wrote:
squiress wrote:
I don't get why these people even play the game if they don't want to do the content.

After doing WP dozens and dozens of times already, can you blame them for wanting to make the most of their time? You don't even get to do unusual oddball strategies with DF runs.


It takes no time at all to cap ToP and ToP and there are many different ways to do it. The WP grind is only if they choose it now.
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