A bit confused on endgame crafted gear...Follow

Honestly, it wasn't difficult and didn't take all that long to create a macro or XML to swap in gear. Being 'uber' at your job didn't require much, but understanding how stats affected your spells and abilities would definitely fall in that category.

Thanks for proving this point:



I'd actually argue the majority of people don't run (current) top-end dungeons in MMOs because of the associated time requirements and gear walls. The hardcores may like it that way because it gives them that smug sense of doing things others aren't, but in the end, it's content the devs spent time producing that a lot of players will never see. As such, I'll further argue that the funds generated by the majority are unjustly being funneled to that vocal and hilariously sensitive minority.

When I said that work is work and the only benefit raiding should offer is speed in acquisition, I meant it. You don't tell a guy who's worked a minimum wage job for years that he can't buy a car because he's not a doctor making six figures. What you're essentially advocating is that no matter how many people and for how long they work at non-raid (low wage) environment, they will never, ever, ever, be able to get that new piece of gear (the car). Surely you're not blind to the fact that this creates a wall of progression that, if perceived insurmountable, can tempt players to, you know, quit? And you're arguing against remedying this essentially because some people will have their feelings hurt and that those who only tolerate the raiding game because it's the only way to progress might actually flip it the bird and do things the other way?

Bluntly, you have no right to tell players what they need to enjoy the game. Leave that to the devs with minimum ilvl requirements for DF content. If someone wants to pimp themselves out in ilvl90 gear and be an open world FATE hero, let them. What are you losing here? Prestige is @#%^ing cancer to MMOs in the context it's too often executed. I eagerly await the day a MMO dev grows some balls and actually implements equal, alternative progression schemes not shackled to raiding and PvP.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 4:22pm by Seriha

Just to add to what Seriha wrote, there is definitely going to be that group of people who LOVE crafting their own gear (we have a bunch of them on the forums here, myself included). Some of these people may not have the drive or time to commit to intense raiding (myself not included - fully intend to get to it eventually) but would still like their gear to be on par for things like FATEs, quests etc. Even if the reason to keep up in terms of gear progression is as simple as not being perceived as a 'gimp' - who cares what the reason is? It doesn't matter in the end really.

Not to mention that getting the appropriate craft(s) up to max level and getting all your crafting gear HQd so you can make the highest iLvl70 HQ battle gear and meld it with rare mateira actually does take quite a bit of work.

That being said, not too sure how to remedy the situation. There will always be people who fall on both sides of the debate.

Ideally, they can put the super high end ingredient at the end of the raid, they get the ingredient and ask the crafter to made the item like how they did with vrtra and kirin back then. It would actually made crafter being needed. Then again we run into this issue.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-jc-pennys-effect

First step would be to obviously add the recipes for such synths.

Second is to pin the source of these materials.

I'm not exactly a fan of the Unspoiled node dynamic because its a factor of RL time and being on at a specific point. Rather, from the gathering end, I'd rather each tier of node have specific materials that could randomly spawn for gathering as you engage them. So, if we're talking gear for level 50s, then level 50 nodes would occasionally have these materials available. Of course, SE would need to get on the ball about RMT gathering here.

Another source would be from the GC vendors, not unlike how you can use tomes to buy materials there. FATEs have none of the baggage of needing to sit in the DF queue if you're a DPS. They're always up somewhere. There's no pressure to do it for hours straight. Just play at your own pace knowing eventually you'll get to the reward.

Third avenue is actual mob drops, but I'm exceedingly hesitant about this for reasons associated with Diremite Webs and the like. Mob populations, especially specific types, are perhaps too sparse to be advocating scorched earth farming policies. Instead, perhaps broaden it to world drops. For the level 50 gear mentioned above, give all level 46-50 mobs a small chance to drop a material specific to these crafts. I am aware there are no non-FATE level 50 mobs in the open world right now, but that's something a patch could fix easy peasy.

Fourth is more a mix of two and three with specific FATEs rewarding materials based on your performance rank. I don't want them on Odin/Behemoth tier spawn frequency, but let's say killing Cancer and getting gold would reward you with something for some mid-30s gear.

Fifth could include the "treasure hunting" thing they teased where gathers could find maps to loot in a given zone.

Sixth could tie in leves, either as the randomized reward associate with some, or even within coffers or the rare NM drops.

Finally, integrating existing recipes into the mix isn't a bad idea. Let's run with point 4, there, and add the caveat that to make this mid-30s piece of gear, you need an HQ armor piece from the current list. When people feel inclined, you'll see them burning through the mats to make such items, thus making gathering more profitable for those who enjoy it. Granted, I do see people skipping these synths if they know they'll be outleveling them quickly, but here's where the impending vanity system can come into play by giving all this gear cool looks. So even if they don't use an item for combat, they may want it to look cool.

SE's got options. They just have to be willing to endure the temporary bellyaching.


Is the fun of conquering these challenges not enough?

Consider people wouldn't actually care about the drops if there were alternatives for them to chase with their own play style. Until then, kindly divorce yourself from that ugly "hard work and sacrifice" philosophy you're carrying there. This is a game. Not RL 2.0. Escapism's a cool thing. Even therapeutic at times. Or perhaps I should be crass and psychoanalyze this into the belief your own life sucks and you need the prestige an MMO offers to feel better about yourself and the ****** life you've failed to level up in. No? Okay then.

Fun. Progression. Something to do without suckling the teats of other players and tolerating endgame politics with all their parroting a guide someone else put uphard work and sacrifice.

Edited, Oct 4th 2013 5:12pm by Seriha

Indeed. And while other games can be fickle about numbers, I recall a blurb from TERA devs about how only 15% or so of people had completed a certain tier of content by the time they released their next. FFXI had census data relative to mission progression in the past, and it was obvious for things like pre-nerf CoP where people were held up. I still wish Rift would get this message, though, as while they finally released some upgrade infinity stone gear with their 2.4 patch, it's still inferior to raid counterparts and sorely grindy for that diminished result.

Of course, Blizz tackled the "never see" thing another way, too, with the LFR buff that builds on wipes. I know the purists utterly loathe such a thing and claim it a death knell to MMOs, but if it means I get a game where I don't have to put up with this 5-15% stinking up the community telling everyone what they're not allowed to do, bring it on.

The "now you just want everything handed to you" defense, everybody.

See, this is what happens when you threaten the raiders' ego. No middle ground. No compromise. Their way or GTFO.

You do realize that day IS here and that game not only exists but has a HUGE following right? Now, I'm not saying quit FFXIV, it's class system makes it a fine game, but Guild Wars 2 is literally constructed just has you described, with a variety of means for alternative progression. Even the end game "raid like" dungeon they got and it's "ascended" gear can be acquired through other means AND crafting is a necessity for a variety of things, exotic tier accessories, for example. FFXIV has the potential to be the better game, but until they flesh out some of this stuff, like crafting and add simple features like right click blacklisting of gil sellers and chat functions that allow discussion of items in a way you can view their stats etc. are all things the game desperately needs. The archaic quest architecture would also dramatically benefit from a major overhaul. FFXIV has the potential to be number one, but it needs a lot of fine tuning to get there. I for one would be ecstatic to see such changes in the game and for certain aspects of the game to be modernized, instead of trying to copy archaic mechanics from WoW that no one ever really liked in the first place.

You didn't need windower to create a normal macro and (if needed) you could swap your entire gear set and cast with two button strokes(kb). Whether or not you were a mage isn't really relevant. I was mainly WAR COR and MNK and all of those jobs(as well as any other job you wanted to excel at) required gear swaps for almost everything you'd do outside of standing there waiting on TP. I played from 2003 on so yes, I did gear several 75s in the 'PS2 limitations' days.

I'm not saying it was the most intuitive system and I'll agree that it was annoying, but it didn't require spreadsheets and calculators.



I completely agree, but that doesn't remove progression from the equation. When new content is released it's difficult. Most players don't reach it and they do level off at a plateau before seeing it, but that doesn't mean they won't see it at all. Obvious example; in WoW most players plateau out in LFR raids that they can run on their own time a la duty finder. When the next tier of raids come out, the previous tier is 'nerfed' and becomes something that players who previously didn't have the time to dedicate can do because it's more casual friendly. I would imagine that is the reason why current raids in XIV are going to be watered-down come 2.1 and beyond.

I think Yoshi realizes that this was a major flaw in the design of XI. While they did add jobs and tweak abilities to add new content to the game, they didn't overhaul the main mechanics of(at the time) level 75 endgame. It stagnated and I think Yoshi and crew are going to try and move away from that regardless of where they settle in before levels are capped for good.



Great example. No, I wouldn't tell someone they could or couldn't buy a car, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. Look at it this way instead:

Your job doesn't dictate whether or not you can buy a car, but it does dictate what type of car you can afford. Now reapply that to raiding. Your hard work in raids will afford you the gear you need should you prefer the sports car over the economy coupe.

It's not about prestige, it's about the ability to set and measure your goals. Some people want to push to their limits and some just enjoy a casual challenge. By allowing for both, SE won't be catering to casual or hardcore; just gamers in general.



Most people, if given the option, will completely skip out on tiers of content if given the option to craft gear equivalent to the highest level raid drops. Take FATEs for example... Gear in FATEs is a non-factor. Why then would anyone bother gearing themselves out if they will still be just as efficient wearing stuff from 10 levels prior? Why would someone spend the time grinding through primals or early coils if they can craft equivalent drops in less time?

The only way I've ever seen it work well is in WoW where you have the ability to craft a few pieces of raid quality gear. It's not broken if you allow crafters to make a helm and gauntlets on par with top tier content, but allowing much more only promotes people skipping over content that they might otherwise enjoy; at the least they'd learn from it.

Just skipping on quoting since it's late for me and I'm getting tired. So tangential babbling will also result.

A lot of times I feel like the concept of working hard in MMOs is a bit too skewed. In my multiple MMO career, working hard is actually rarely what wins a battle, but simply understanding its mechanics and having the gear to make sure you push through DPS checks or don't get facerolled by hits as a tank both with mitigation and healing. I could argue this a fault of attacks largely never missing unless they're part of a "get out of the red" mechanic, but even in TERA or GW2 where combat was more reactive, gear was still pretty clutch. There's just no amount of skill to be had that changes the fact 2 is greater than 1.

Knowledge, nonetheless, accumulates. Maybe you lose a few times, then you win. Then you keep winning. Then it goes on farm. Then you're calling something stupid easy months later while someone else is grumbling about difficulty. That understanding may be a sense of progression, but I'd also propose that if you're someone looking up guides or watching videos, you're not so much developing your skills as it is borrowing the work of others. Fundamentally, I don't really have a problem with that. It's social interaction in what people tout to be social games. My issue, however, is when you see these rank and file sheep players who aren't the leaders of their guilds talking **** like they figured it all out and everyone must obviously be in the same position as they are. When I clamor for alternate progression, it's not because I believe the people that would take advantage of it have no skill. It's simply an understanding that the raiding game isn't for everyone for numerous reasons, but that doesn't mean the game has to be not for them on the whole once they finish their quests and level to cap. Overcoming those hurdles isn't as simple as just saying, "Start your own party!" or to wait for the nerf that may or may not come in the future. Wanting to play together in the now, not three months from now, isn't a bad thing!

But on the working hard thing, most often it'll be the healers that wind up genuinely taxed. It's why this role is often in demand because the pressure isn't something everyone can cope with and certainly don't enjoy when seeking their entertainment. I did my time in FFXI as the sub-optimal healer on RDM in Dynamis parties and all that jazz. It just wasn't fun and part of why I clamored so hard for RDM melee buffs so the job could actually break away from that fate. Right now, in XIV, I don't think I've actually fought anything truly hard. In examining the occasional failure, if it's a fight our group didn't know, it'd require pointing out some things that happened to avoid them. I've died on the Demon Wall because I derped and forgot it was the second goop cycle post-bugs and got bounced off the edge. **** happens. I laugh about it. Tried doing Garuda Hard tonight, and while I understood everything that was going on, our group just didn't have enough DPS to really handle her clones reliably, nevermind the secondary tank not understanding the fact that stacking the red one on the green really hurt the healers with the double cleaves going on. I have no doubt I'll beat her in the future, though. So when it does happen, there won't really be that rush for me that some seem to thrive on. I hear Titan horror stories, but I'm not exactly worried there, either. Maybe this is just my MMO vet-ness having "seen it all" in one form or another.

There's also a part of me that outright finds it insulting when people insist this stuff is work, too. When I think of work, I think to a month back when I'm helping my sister unload a U-Haul, carrying dozens of heavy boxes down a steep hill into her basement and then the eventual lugging of a 600 pound piano down a number of uneven steps. Or the job I had a decade back working at a dog track with 14 hour shifts going up and down steps the whole time. Or how my brother-in-law works in a coal mine. Sitting in a chair clicking buttons doesn't come anywhere close in comparison, so thee are times I sit here thinking when I see people defending this system of tiering that they're just kids with no actual responsibility and understanding for why people may think differently and want different things in their games. It's actually a bit maddening at times to even think I have to be typing things out like this, that it should be common sense that not everyone can throw countless hours into these games with no other obligations. But then I realize that some of the people making the flawed games a decade ago are still at it today, with some fresh blood who grew up on those games trying to recreate those glory days through their rose-tinted glasses. And too often it doesn't work. Not so much because of lack of innovation, but a simple lack of respect for the lives people live beyond the keyboard. It's why I tend to abandon courtesy when I see the same old tired excuses thrown out for why things are the way they are. It's those things that keep me from trying to get my brother-in-law into these games, or my sisters, or bluntly why I never actually tell anyone I play them unless I learn they play MMOs first. The bad mental exhaustion that can come with them is not a torture I believe all of them could endure. And I'm not blind to the fact it can make me a *****. I don't want to be, but as long as the genre's basically advocating caste systems, it's gonna be there by virtue of my white knight personality wanting to stick up for the little guy.

Of course, even if I did get my wish, I know there'd be some who'd take the path of least resistance just because they could. Doesn't bug me, honestly. Could see one person using mixed methods to max a job more quickly. The next could gear one job one way, then another the other. No dev will ever eliminate the reasons for why people can't or won't do dungeons, though. It's even a bit risky to tie them story content like they have here, too. Overall, there's a fine line between incentive and pressure, and pressure seems more the genre norm.

Well, I don't agree. If you can buy the best gear in game from a crafter, for whatever reason,
it will enable lame asses to simply buy their way to the top. I'm not o.k. with that. Call it fairness,
call it envy, call it what you want. I would be o.k. with crafted gear that is rare/ex so the crafter
gets something for his (mindless buttonpressing I wanted to say, but let's call it) dedication.

You cannot expect to obtain the "best" gear simply by pressing the same buttons over and over.
There's no "challenge" in crafting except the amount of time you are willing to invest; and games
have (luckily) progressed beyond the stage where trading copious amounts of lifetime = success.

If you want the best fighting gear, fight for it. It's actually that simple. And if you don't want to
overcome the challenges of a coordinated high-end raid: settle for the second best. Because
chances are you'll never need that uber-gear anyway.

First, let me just put this in: Once you beat a raid the first time, it's all mindless button pressing. Please don't feel special because your mindless button pressing involves virtually hitting stuff, where as a crafters involves virtually crafting stuff. Second, there are many instances where crafted gear can compete with certain tiers of end-game gear. The idea is to allow people the option on how they play. A person rocking crafted gear will still need to mindlessly press buttons and kill things for virtual currency to buy the virtual gear, so that's just another form of grind. If they grind crafting, there's another form of grind. Dungeons, farming, crafting, all three just mindless grinds to reach an end goal.



Actually, to make an HQ item in FFXIV, it's harder than you think. First, you need to gather your resources. That can mean either, again, farming/selling items to make gil to buy them, or going out and acquiring the items in-world, off of enemies or rare nodes that require you to be there at a certain time. Then you need to HQ those into materials, which can be tricky and takes some work to make happen. Then you have to roll the dice and risk NQing the item itself, blowing all that work.

It's not the FFXI craft and hope, it takes skill and prep. For example, I have several crafts leveled to 20 specifically because I get crossclass skills like Waste Not, Careful Synthesis, Rumination and Tricks of the Trade. It took a good deal of time to get those, and it takes some knowledge to calculatedly use them. Right now I'm working on CUL to get its level 15 ability. I'm sure if there are more cross skills that are equally as useful, my crafts will all have to level up accordingly.

In essence, I'm grinding my own "dungeon". In some ways, I'm more dedicated than some raider that might get lucky, fall in with a good group and get handed gear for being a good little monkey with a fixed playtime schedule. Just because I don't live my life around this game, that I don't literally book off hours of my week to go repeatedly bash my forehead into my keyboard running the same rote dungeon time after time until I am granted the amount of items that will allow me to get the next time to go off and repeat the whole ******** again in the next event.



Don't call it a challenge. It's not. If you are the first group, ever, to win, then it's a challenge. After that, it's just repeating what works.

This could be solved by allowing untradeable, unsellable HQ mats and materia to drop in dungeons, and allowing crafters to use those items to craft unsellable, untradable gear. This would add a tremendous incentive for people to level their crafting jobs, because they'd then have two pathways to good endgame gear... WITHOUT pulling people away from dungeons, but while also adding use to crafting.