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Game Sessions Not ExpiringFollow

#27 Oct 08 2013 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Khornette wrote:
To be honest, even business banking security token has been hacked. So now the bank gives me physical device to go along with the physical token where you need the device plugged in to your PC to log into the account AND THEN enter the one time password from the token. Which probably will be hacked in the near future as well.


Back in school, one of my teachers said that the safest computer would be one not connected to any network, locked in a vault, and under constant armed guard... even then he'd not guarantee it. Basically, if someone wants something badly enough, they will get it. However, expiring sessions or denying a session once its IP changes are very rudimentary elements of security. Neither is all that hard, and the latter should be an absolute no brainer. "What, the client suddenly shifted IP ranges from a NA address to one in China? Oh who cares." That's.... very bad. Hell Facebook won't let you do that, it will make you jump through hoops to login on a non-recognized device from another IP range, and it alerts the user that all this is happening. I'd hope that a service I am paying for would do at least that.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
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#28 Oct 08 2013 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
The funny thig is, I am sure I remember getting locked out of beta once when trying to log in from a different ip.
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#29 Oct 08 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
The funny thig is, I am sure I remember getting locked out of beta once when trying to log in from a different ip.


So this was the solution to the problem. It's a feature, not a bug!
#30 Oct 08 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
The funny thig is, I am sure I remember getting locked out of beta once when trying to log in from a different ip.


Pretty sure that would still happen. Running the game with a session ID doesn't require logging in, you only need to call the game's exe with certain command line options set. That's why this is so annoying. Token or no token you can log in to the game with only the session ID.
#31 Oct 08 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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It didn't. In the original post, the guy gave his session ID to another person on another ISP in another part of the country.

Quote:
I was able to give only an old, supposed to be expired, session ID to a friend and they were able to log into my account and characters from an entirely different location in the world.


From the summary of the article you posted.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#32 Oct 08 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
It didn't. In the original post, the guy gave his session ID to another person on another ISP in another part of the country.

Quote:
I was able to give only an old, supposed to be expired, session ID to a friend and they were able to log into my account and characters from an entirely different location in the world.


From the summary of the article you posted.


I'm not talking about logging in, I'm talking about running the exe for the game with the old session ID as the parameter. SE ID, password, and one time ID not needed. I would guess that the act of logging in with those credentials to get a new session ID would cause the issue Thayos is describing but not using just the session ID as the argument.
#33 Oct 08 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm, I would assume would happen. I could try to login using my fiancee's account up here. I could get her to give it to me. I wasn't able to sort out how I'd copy my session ID (mainly because.... well I wanted to play last night XD), but this test could be quick...
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#34 Oct 08 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default
Makes me wonder if the seesion ID was/is behind the infamous 3102 error? Perhaps their fix is what created this mess?
#35 Oct 08 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Pawkeshup the Meaningless wrote:
Hmm, I would assume would happen. I could try to login using my fiancee's account up here. I could get her to give it to me. I wasn't able to sort out how I'd copy my session ID (mainly because.... well I wanted to play last night XD), but this test could be quick...


If you have a token the test won't work, somehow using a one time token skips the IP check. You can get the session ID using Process Explorer, it's a free download from Sysinternals/Microsoft.
#36 Oct 08 2013 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Her account doesn't have a token as yet. Mine does. I play on PS3 so... yea... I can try to get the client running on my PC but last time I tried, it was not going so hot. My aging notebook just isn't going to have the power to keep up.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#37 Oct 08 2013 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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This is like someone taking your concert ticket out of the garbage and seeing the band play the next night, not only that but they tell everyone at the show that they're you...and they can do this indefinitely. The security guards don't even ask to see the ticket, they just get to walk in because they have one.

Now to you or me, unless our PC is compromised, it probably doesn't mean much...until (or unless) someone's figured out the algorithm used (unless it's random) to make the Session IDs. In which case they can generate a valid ID you were given, log into your PC, spam your contact list for gold sites, sell all your items and ship off all your gil...all without ever knowing your password, your account name, email, or having broken token auth.

Why this matters is because if your PC was otherwise compromised by a keylogger or somesuch your account should be safe because you have the One Time password--so external entities could have your password and do other nasty things, but not get into your account.
#38 Oct 08 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Krycis wrote:
This is like someone taking your concert ticket out of the garbage and seeing the band play the next night, not only that but they tell everyone at the show that they're you...and they can do this indefinitely.


I don't think the concert ticket analogy really emphasizes the gravity of the situation. It's way worse than that. It's total identity theft. With a session ID someone could take over your account and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. No amount of password obscurity can save you. Worse, any shenanigans the perpetrator performs (from advertising RMT to duping gil) is done in your name, and you're the one who'll get the lifetime ban from SE's online games, not the thief.

Depending on the computing power the attacker has (such as a botnet) and the length of the session IDs, it's possible they aren't compromising their victim's computers in any way. They could just be guessing the session IDs by running every combination completely unchallenged by any authentication.

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 5:53pm by Xoie
#39 Oct 08 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
I'd hope SE would notice the same IP generating session IDs that don't actually work and lock out any computer spamming them after a few attempts. Won't help anyone with a legit session ID who gets hijacked, but would significantly hamper anyone trying to brute force it.
#40 Oct 08 2013 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I'd hope SE would notice the same IP generating session IDs that don't actually work and lock out any computer spamming them after a few attempts. Won't help anyone with a legit session ID who gets hijacked, but would significantly hamper anyone trying to brute force it.


They have to know the problem exists and IS a problem first.
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#41 Oct 08 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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So is it time to panic yet, or stay calm?
#42 Oct 08 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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It's a problem, but can be prevented via the normal methods.

Don't let a virus get installed on your computer and the session ID can't be stolen in the first place.
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#43 Oct 08 2013 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho wrote:
I'd hope SE would notice the same IP generating session IDs that don't actually work and lock out any computer spamming them after a few attempts. Won't help anyone with a legit session ID who gets hijacked, but would significantly hamper anyone trying to brute force it.


Doesn't sound like it:

Quote:
I was able to give only an old, supposed to be expired, session ID to a friend and they were able to log into my account and characters from an entirely different location in the world. I did not provide an account name, password, or one time password.
#44 Oct 08 2013 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Xoie wrote:
I don't think the concert ticket analogy really emphasizes the gravity of the situation. It's way worse than that.

My analogy wasn't to belie the weight of the vulnerability, I wrote it to create an alternate narrative that someone might understand when the subject matter is technical and the audience may not necessarily understand. The point is that with little effort (removing a stub from the garbage) the person can impersonate you indefinitely.

Anyhow, you know what I meant. You know I wasn't making light of the situation and the implication otherwise is posturing. It's a software vulnerability they have to fix--if it's indeed true (as the originator has explained he or she can prove through replication). It needs be fixed, but the actual threat to the general populace is relatively unknown, hopefully low due to the variance in each SID generated, but the knowledge of the potential exploit does perhaps shed some light to the perceived increase in account hijacks outside the normal vectors of infiltration.
#45 Oct 08 2013 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
On the "it's a bug, not a feature" note, you don't have to log back in to the game if you get disconnected due to inactivity. It kicks you back to the character selection screen. The non-expiring session ID is probably what allows that.
#46 Oct 08 2013 at 10:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Catwho wrote:
On the "it's a bug, not a feature" note, you don't have to log back in to the game if you get disconnected due to inactivity. It kicks you back to the character selection screen. The non-expiring session ID is probably what allows that.


Yep, a small boon, at least you don't have to use another token ID to log back in Smiley: thumbsup
#47 Oct 09 2013 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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This whole keeping the session active and working does save your spot in a party, dungeon or instance when you disconnect however. Still feel there should be a way to disable this upon a proper /shutdown for sleep or so.
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