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Why was the AGI stat remove din 1.0 and do you think it will make a return in 2.0? I think thats an odd stat to get rid of in an RPG.. I love making extremely fast/highly evasive characters (which is why i loved thief so much... damage output wasnt very high but attack speed plus ability to hardly ever get hit made it worth it)
≪Parameters and Their Effects≫
Strength
Attack Power
Damage dealt by puglist, gladiator, marauder, and lancer arms
Vitality
Damage taken
Enhancement Magic Potency
Maximum HP
Damage dealt by marauder arms
Dexterity
Accuracy
Block Rate
Parry
Damage dealt by archer arms
Intelligence
Attack Magic Potency
Damage dealt by pugilist arms
Mind
Healing Magic Potency
Magic Accuracy
Damage dealt by gladiator, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms
Piety
Magic Evasion
Enfeebling Magic Potency
Maximum MP
Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms
≪Auto-attack Damage Bonus≫
Class Bonus 1 Bonus 2
Pugilist Intelligence Strength
Gladiator Mind Strength
Marauder Vitality Strength
Archer Dexterity Piety
Lancer Piety Strength
Conjurer Mind Piety
Thaumaturge Mind Piety
AGI probably wasn't in there because it wasn't needed. Extremely fast/evasive jobs weren't needed in the paradigm of current jobs. Future jobs it could be added, who knows?
Strength
Attack Power
Damage dealt by puglist, gladiator, marauder, and lancer arms
Vitality
Damage taken
Enhancement Magic Potency
Maximum HP
Damage dealt by marauder arms
Dexterity
Accuracy
Block Rate
Parry
Damage dealt by archer arms
Intelligence
Attack Magic Potency
Damage dealt by pugilist arms
Mind
Healing Magic Potency
Magic Accuracy
Damage dealt by gladiator, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms
Piety
Magic Evasion
Enfeebling Magic Potency
Maximum MP
Damage dealt by archer, lancer, thaumaturge, and conjurer arms
≪Auto-attack Damage Bonus≫
Class Bonus 1 Bonus 2
Pugilist Intelligence Strength
Gladiator Mind Strength
Marauder Vitality Strength
Archer Dexterity Piety
Lancer Piety Strength
Conjurer Mind Piety
Thaumaturge Mind Piety
AGI probably wasn't in there because it wasn't needed. Extremely fast/evasive jobs weren't needed in the paradigm of current jobs. Future jobs it could be added, who knows?
care to explain how "extremely fat/evasive jobs" can be "not needed" thats like saying only one type oif DD is needed (lets say pugilist) teh rest are technically unnecessary too (dragoon and whatever other DDs there are) yet they all exist right?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
care to explain how "extremely fat/evasive jobs" can be "not needed" thats like saying only one type oif DD is needed (lets say pugilist) teh rest are technically unnecessary too (dragoon and whatever other DDs there are) yet they all exist right?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I don't see an EVA based job there. Now if they brought THF in I could see the necessity, perhaps that will be in the works.
Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
care to explain how "extremely fat/evasive jobs" can be "not needed" thats like saying only one type oif DD is needed (lets say pugilist) teh rest are technically unnecessary too (dragoon and whatever other DDs there are) yet they all exist right?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I don't see an EVA based job there. Now if they brought THF in I could see the necessity, perhaps that will be in the works.
ok so an evasion job isnt a necessity yet if they brought thf in THEN it would be a necessity? no if an evasion job isnt an necessity then that would mean making a thief class would also be unnecessary thus no reason to ever nmake one unless something changed gameplay wise that would make an evasion job a necessity
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Wint wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
care to explain how "extremely fat/evasive jobs" can be "not needed" thats like saying only one type oif DD is needed (lets say pugilist) teh rest are technically unnecessary too (dragoon and whatever other DDs there are) yet they all exist right?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I mean whats the logic behind how a high attach speed and high evasion job can not be needed?
I don't see an EVA based job there. Now if they brought THF in I could see the necessity, perhaps that will be in the works.
ok so an evasion job isnt a necessity yet if they brought thf in THEN it would be a necessity? no if an evasion job isnt an necessity then that would mean making a thief class would also be unnecessary thus no reason to ever nmake one unless something changed gameplay wise that would make an evasion job a necessity
I don't even want to read your posts at this point, it's like a run-on sentence with no end in sight. I'm not even sure what you're saying here.
1. According to 2nd poster Evasion job doesnt exist because one isnt necessary.
2. According to you (wint) adding Thief would make evasion necessary.
However to me simply adding thief when evasion job isnt necessary, would be pointless and thus there would be no reason to add thief until such a job was NECESSARY
in order for "necessary" to occur then something gameplaywise would have to change.
so until that gameplay change occured an evasion job would never be necessary and thus Thief would never be made as it would be unnecessary
tl:dr adding thf would magically make evasion necessary as you said Wint... something gameplay wise would have to change and thus give reason for adding a job like thief to be needed.
Was that easier?
2. According to you (wint) adding Thief would make evasion necessary.
However to me simply adding thief when evasion job isnt necessary, would be pointless and thus there would be no reason to add thief until such a job was NECESSARY
in order for "necessary" to occur then something gameplaywise would have to change.
so until that gameplay change occured an evasion job would never be necessary and thus Thief would never be made as it would be unnecessary
tl:dr adding thf would magically make evasion necessary as you said Wint... something gameplay wise would have to change and thus give reason for adding a job like thief to be needed.
Was that easier?
I understand what Duo is getting at and I sort of see the point. The lack of a stat that directly effects evasion seems to go against some older MMOs, specifically FFXI. In WoW they don't have Dexterity but Agility covers pretty much both stats. But in FFXIV they have pretty much everything covered in Dexterity other than Evasion rate. Now I have no idea how evasion worked in 1.0, but I'm assuming it was built directly into Pugilist's kit. I'm guessing that items did/will have +evasion on them, so itemization will still be there for those that want it. Still, your character not growing more evasive as it gains levels seems kind of silly if they choose to add some of the more evasive jobs. Parry could easily offset this though, as most evasive jobs tend to dual wield anyway (But who knows if they even have the proper mechanics in place to allow dual wielding. Guess it's something we won't have to worry about for a long time anyway.)
I can see why they removed Agility from the stat list. Even in FFXI the only jobs that utilized this stat were RNG and NIN. A THF would rarely choose to take AGI over DEX and since they lumped Ranged damage in with DEX that would just leave AGI as a light tanking stat. And currently no job uses this stat in that way or as a primary damage stat. However I still don't understand why Pugilist/Monk use INT over PIE, but I guess everyone can't use PIE XD.
I can see why they removed Agility from the stat list. Even in FFXI the only jobs that utilized this stat were RNG and NIN. A THF would rarely choose to take AGI over DEX and since they lumped Ranged damage in with DEX that would just leave AGI as a light tanking stat. And currently no job uses this stat in that way or as a primary damage stat. However I still don't understand why Pugilist/Monk use INT over PIE, but I guess everyone can't use PIE XD.
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
1. According to 2nd poster Evasion job doesnt exist because one isnt necessary.
2. According to you (wint) adding Thief would make evasion necessary.
However to me simply adding thief when evasion job isnt necessary, would be pointless and thus there would be no reason to add thief until such a job was NECESSARY
in order for "necessary" to occur then something gameplaywise would have to change.
so until that gameplay change occured an evasion job would never be necessary and thus Thief would never be made as it would be unnecessary
tl:dr adding thf would magically make evasion necessary as you said Wint... something gameplay wise would have to change and thus give reason for adding a job like thief to be needed.
Was that easier?
2. According to you (wint) adding Thief would make evasion necessary.
However to me simply adding thief when evasion job isnt necessary, would be pointless and thus there would be no reason to add thief until such a job was NECESSARY
in order for "necessary" to occur then something gameplaywise would have to change.
so until that gameplay change occured an evasion job would never be necessary and thus Thief would never be made as it would be unnecessary
tl:dr adding thf would magically make evasion necessary as you said Wint... something gameplay wise would have to change and thus give reason for adding a job like thief to be needed.
Was that easier?
Somewhat, the punctuation, line breaks, and formatting help. I still don't see what your point is though. Right now there are no jobs that rely on Evasion in the game. This we know. If they added a job that did rely on evasion, then AGI would then become a necessary stat. Their party dynamic seems to revolve around a tank maintaining hate and everyone else performing their various functions in such a way as to not draw hate and get hit. The battle system is still being revamped as part of the beta so I'm guessing there will be more to come on this.
Of course the problem with evasion has always been (at least from my perspective of mainly ffxi and other mmo's) that anything worth fighting generally has capped/near capped acc against the char thus rendering Eva useless. I'd love to see it intelligently designed in some way to avoid this, but complete damage mitigation through dodged attacks could be a balance issue. When it suits them we know how SE loves balance. (Unless you're a samurai)
Tyka wrote:
Of course the problem with evasion has always been (at least from my perspective of mainly ffxi and other mmo's) that anything worth fighting generally has capped/near capped acc against the char thus rendering Eva useless. I'd love to see it intelligently designed in some way to avoid this, but complete damage mitigation through dodged attacks could be a balance issue. When it suits them we know how SE loves balance. (Unless you're a samurai)
tell tha tto thfs on ffxi lol
The way Pugilist used evading abilities is that it has an 90-100% chance of evading the next major attack. There was no real stat influence.
Edited, Mar 25th 2013 6:28pm by UltKnightGrover
Edited, Mar 25th 2013 6:28pm by UltKnightGrover
Agility can, and should, be wrapped into the dexterity stat. Being agile and dextrous kind of run hand-in-hand. Here's the the thing, taking evasion out via stats and leaving it as an independent stat found exclusively on tank gear means you can leave it as it is stat-wise. Otherwise you run into the scaling "rating problem" that a lot of MMOs have found. As you level, the value of the rating decreases. If you're stacking agility to become evasive, you end up becoming weaker down the road. Also if, a certain race has the highest natural agility, it will default to the most evasive tank. As damage reduction / health can only reduce so much, but evading an attack causes 100% damage reduction of said attack.
One argument could say you're making all the classes the same... And in a way you are, but also you're helping to avoid item design issues. If you have 10 core stats that are important, you end up having to design 10 well-designed pieces of armor for every slot, or you design 4-6 pieces per slot (PPS) and have cross stats that aren't useful on each piece of gear. So instead of designing a dex set and an agi set, you design a dex or agi set, and you cut out the number of sets in the game which simplifies loot tables and reduces the chance of piece of gear dropping that no one can use.
One argument could say you're making all the classes the same... And in a way you are, but also you're helping to avoid item design issues. If you have 10 core stats that are important, you end up having to design 10 well-designed pieces of armor for every slot, or you design 4-6 pieces per slot (PPS) and have cross stats that aren't useful on each piece of gear. So instead of designing a dex set and an agi set, you design a dex or agi set, and you cut out the number of sets in the game which simplifies loot tables and reduces the chance of piece of gear dropping that no one can use.
WoW Blackhand-US-Date of Retirement: 9/21/2010... /Sigh
Devari - 90 Rogue 85 DK Druid/Mage/Warrior 70+
FFXI - Shiva "Retired.... Or not? One more try, honest."
Desmar - 65 Sam 36 Mnk 18 Thf 12 War
FFXIV - Devari Garamond - Sargatanas 50 Paladin / Culinarian / Weaver / Armorer
Beta - Devaria Ariadne - Ultros - Pugilist
Devari - 90 Rogue 85 DK Druid/Mage/Warrior 70+
FFXI - Shiva "Retired.... Or not? One more try, honest."
Desmar - 65 Sam 36 Mnk 18 Thf 12 War
FFXIV - Devari Garamond - Sargatanas 50 Paladin / Culinarian / Weaver / Armorer
Beta - Devaria Ariadne - Ultros - Pugilist
I agree. It's strange to remove Agility, yet keep Intelligence, Mind, and Piety, which are all very similar stats with rather similar senses.
Since so many of the effects of current stats are counter-intuitive -- Intelligence affects my ability to punch sh*t in the face? -- there was really no reason not to retain Agility, if for nothing else than to allow future classes / abilities to make use of it. A stat is only "not needed" because SE decided to arbitrarily make it that way, and it could just as easily have been useful (like for punching sh*t in the face, perhaps?).
The way it is now, I never see SE adding in an entire new base statistic to the game: it would simply be too much work, especially after the second or third overhaul to battle equations already.
Since so many of the effects of current stats are counter-intuitive -- Intelligence affects my ability to punch sh*t in the face? -- there was really no reason not to retain Agility, if for nothing else than to allow future classes / abilities to make use of it. A stat is only "not needed" because SE decided to arbitrarily make it that way, and it could just as easily have been useful (like for punching sh*t in the face, perhaps?).
The way it is now, I never see SE adding in an entire new base statistic to the game: it would simply be too much work, especially after the second or third overhaul to battle equations already.
I agree KaneKitty, some of the attributes that are affected by Piety, Mind, and Intelligence are a little bizarre.
A common way to deal with the issues of piety/mind/intelligence is go the route that almost all RPGs go, even early versions of D&D. You tie one stat (usually mind/wisdom) to healing (conjury), and you tie one (usually intelligence) to damage (thaumaturge). In the event of the Arcanist/Summoner, you would give them 50% of both stats, as this would allow them to benefit from gear from both classes, and weapons will naturally have appropriate stat distribution for the level. Piety could be removed, or converted to a critical hit / MP regeneration stat that continually ticks in and out of combat.
WoW Blackhand-US-Date of Retirement: 9/21/2010... /Sigh
Devari - 90 Rogue 85 DK Druid/Mage/Warrior 70+
FFXI - Shiva "Retired.... Or not? One more try, honest."
Desmar - 65 Sam 36 Mnk 18 Thf 12 War
FFXIV - Devari Garamond - Sargatanas 50 Paladin / Culinarian / Weaver / Armorer
Beta - Devaria Ariadne - Ultros - Pugilist
Devari - 90 Rogue 85 DK Druid/Mage/Warrior 70+
FFXI - Shiva "Retired.... Or not? One more try, honest."
Desmar - 65 Sam 36 Mnk 18 Thf 12 War
FFXIV - Devari Garamond - Sargatanas 50 Paladin / Culinarian / Weaver / Armorer
Beta - Devaria Ariadne - Ultros - Pugilist
Personally I think base stats tend to create more design problems than make them worthwhile, all for the sake of numerically conveying the information that your character is getting stronger.
Monk's attacks did elemental damage. Fists of Fire, Earth, Wind, etc... That's probably why INT played a factor.
Of course, this is speaking 1.0's terms. The stats I also posted are 1.0 terms. Yoshi has said that that chart is completely moot for ARR.
Of course, this is speaking 1.0's terms. The stats I also posted are 1.0 terms. Yoshi has said that that chart is completely moot for ARR.
desmar wrote:
A common way to deal with the issues of piety/mind/intelligence is go the route that almost all RPGs go, even early versions of D&D. You tie one stat (usually mind/wisdom) to healing (conjury), and you tie one (usually intelligence) to damage (thaumaturge). In the event of the Arcanist/Summoner, you would give them 50% of both stats, as this would allow them to benefit from gear from both classes, and weapons will naturally have appropriate stat distribution for the level. Piety could be removed, or converted to a critical hit / MP regeneration stat that continually ticks in and out of combat.
Hopefully we get Charisma, so when you've a quest from Stingy McTightfist to go find 10 dragon toe nail clippings to exchange for a moderate sum of clink, you can crack a smile and a wink with such force that he simply hands over all his personal wealth, forgets all about dragons, and tells the rest of the chaps down in the tavern that same evening what an absolute gentleman you are.
Kordain wrote:
desmar wrote:
A common way to deal with the issues of piety/mind/intelligence is go the route that almost all RPGs go, even early versions of D&D. You tie one stat (usually mind/wisdom) to healing (conjury), and you tie one (usually intelligence) to damage (thaumaturge). In the event of the Arcanist/Summoner, you would give them 50% of both stats, as this would allow them to benefit from gear from both classes, and weapons will naturally have appropriate stat distribution for the level. Piety could be removed, or converted to a critical hit / MP regeneration stat that continually ticks in and out of combat.
Hopefully we get Charisma, so when you've a quest from Stingy McTightfist to go find 10 dragon toe nail clippings to exchange for a moderate sum of clink, you can crack a smile and a wink with such force that he simply hands over all his personal wealth, forgets all about dragons, and tells the rest of the chaps down in the tavern that same evening what an absolute gentleman you are.
I lol'd....at work....everyone stared
ETA: This really makes me want to roll on an RP server. Did SE ever say if they're going to have RP servers? I don't recall.
Edited, Mar 25th 2013 11:21pm by LebargeX
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