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where is the jumpFollow

#1 Nov 22 2009 at 9:11 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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i think that a 3d game wun feel so 3d if theres no jumping
so wat if u can walk up a slope
i prefer jumping up a slope
#2 Nov 22 2009 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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#3 Nov 22 2009 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd prefer an "action button" that lets you jump over fences, use ladders, jump across gaps, etc. that's only used in specific areas that need it over just a jump wherever you want button.
#4 Nov 22 2009 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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valid wrote:
I'd prefer an "action button" that lets you jump over fences, use ladders, jump across gaps, etc. that's only used in specific areas that need it over just a jump wherever you want button.


Yah this is honestly a excellent idea for a mmorpg. FFXIII will have something like that right? I don't see why they shouldn't bring that over to this game.
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#5 Nov 23 2009 at 12:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't see the whole point of the jump function in a slow paced game like FFXI. I see jumping as a feature of an action game, like God of War. It has its places, just not in MMORPGs.
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#6 Nov 23 2009 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
This is for FFXIV, not FFXI. I think the action idea's not bad. It should make the person just do a small hop though. Not the BOUNCE of wow, but a prepare and jump, like people in the real world do from time to time.
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#7 Nov 23 2009 at 4:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Pluelf wrote:
I don't see the whole point of the jump function in a slow paced game like FFXI. I see jumping as a feature of an action game, like God of War. It has its places, just not in MMORPGs.


Yes jumping would not work in FFXI, however this game is not FFXI (though from all SE has told us it could be FFXI-2 with HD grapics (Red Lotus blade and the same races?)). I'm pretty sure the new battle system will defiantly be more faster paced than XI and for a jumping feature they just have to implement it better, mmos like WoW have jump but they don't really make you have to jump and its more like "its just there" feature. But yea like I said before I prefer a Action button thats there just to let you jump across rocks when they get in your way and such but also it could do much more actions based on situations presented.
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#8 Nov 23 2009 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Pluelf wrote:
I don't see the whole point of the jump function in a slow paced game like FFXI. I see jumping as a feature of an action game, like God of War. It has its places, just not in MMORPGs.


Just to add something a little fresh to the game. Something to add just that little extra hint of realism in the ingredients. Instead of looking at my character just /run everywhere, it's appealing to the eye to see somethin a little different every now and then. Just for aesthetics. Obviously it's not essential for gameplay, but c'mon, you know it's not that horrible of an idea......

GIVEN that it's just an obstacle-specific action command, or something like in the Ocarina of Time.

If you were referring to a jumping system like WoW's however, then yeah, I agree, it's pointless.
#9 Nov 23 2009 at 7:53 AM Rating: Default
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i agree with the action button jump.
kinda reminds me off how u jump and climb in resident evil or FFX when u needed or was it FFX-2 i forget anyhow it would be nice instead of having to run around obstacles

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 8:54am by Tazblackferret
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#10 Nov 23 2009 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Pluelf wrote:
I don't see the whole point of the jump function in a slow paced game like FFXI.
I don't see the whole point of a game where all levels of testers failed to account for characters being hung up by faulty environment clipping issues. Walking up and down stairs in Ordelle's Cave shouldn't cause you to stop, regardless of race. A small dent shouldn't cause minutes of anguish to step over, like in the Horutoto Ruins. The infamous "stone" in Qufim shouldn't be an impossible hurdle, either. This is a perfectly good excuse for the inclusion of a jump function. Its a simple remedy to possible unforeseen clipping problems, like the three I mentioned.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 12:07pm by lolgaxe
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#11 Nov 23 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I want to point out jump function or no, I still got "stuck" in **** in WoW and had to wait and hearth. The lesson they should learn from FFXI is 1) test things better and 2) fix reported errors.
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#13 Nov 23 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Angstycoder wrote:
I personally support a jump function. With WoW, iirc, you actually need to use it to get one or two places (LBRS or something over there?)

The one thing I will always hold dear to my heart from WoW, was watching people try to jump over something in a dungeon, and fall to their deaths.

Wailing Caverns, Lower Blackrock Spire, AQ40, Slave Pens, and Naxxramas, all stand out in my mind as a dungeon which had a platforming jumping segment. And it was so much fun watching people mess it up :P

I may be forgetting one or two.

lolgaxe wrote:
Walking up and down stairs in Ordelle's Cave shouldn't cause you to stop, regardless of race. A small dent shouldn't cause minutes of anguish to step over, like in the Horutoto Ruins. The infamous "stone" in Qufim shouldn't be an impossible hurdle, either. This is a perfectly good excuse for the inclusion of a jump function. Its a simple remedy to possible unforeseen clipping problems, like the three I mentioned.

This is true too. And it's true of every MMO I've ever played, including WoW. Sometimes you just get stuck. With a jump button, more than 9 times out of 10, you can use the jump button to get unstuck, and save yourself waiting several hours for a GM to come and move you.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 3:08pm by Karelyn
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#14 Nov 23 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Walking up and down stairs in Ordelle's Cave shouldn't cause you to stop, regardless of race. A small dent shouldn't cause minutes of anguish to step over, like in the Horutoto Ruins. The infamous "stone" in Qufim shouldn't be an impossible hurdle, either. This is a perfectly good excuse for the inclusion of a jump function. Its a simple remedy to possible unforeseen clipping problems, like the three I mentioned.


Since when is it a good idea to include a gameplay mechanic solely for getting around something broken or glitched? I'd rather the time be spent on making sure all the maps are ironed out and made hangup free so the necessity of jumping becomes nullified.
#15 Nov 23 2009 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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TraumaFox wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Walking up and down stairs in Ordelle's Cave shouldn't cause you to stop, regardless of race. A small dent shouldn't cause minutes of anguish to step over, like in the Horutoto Ruins. The infamous "stone" in Qufim shouldn't be an impossible hurdle, either. This is a perfectly good excuse for the inclusion of a jump function. Its a simple remedy to possible unforeseen clipping problems, like the three I mentioned.


Since when is it a good idea to include a gameplay mechanic solely for getting around something broken or glitched? I'd rather the time be spent on making sure all the maps are ironed out and made hangup free so the necessity of jumping becomes nullified.


Do you realize how incredibly tedious and such a waste of time it would be to go through every single map and try to iron out all of the little glitches in terrain? Especially since you can avoid it all by adding a simple function like jump? I honestly don't see how people can become so terribly **** that they would rather force hundreds of hours of work, delaying release, to avoid seeing people jump. Get over yourself.
#16 Nov 23 2009 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Do you realize how incredibly tedious and such a waste of time it would be to go through every single map and try to iron out all of the little glitches in terrain? Especially since you can avoid it all by adding a simple function like jump? I honestly don't see how people can become so terribly **** that they would rather force hundreds of hours of work, delaying release, to avoid seeing people jump. Get over yourself.


Hundreds of hours? You are clearly out of your mind. If testers don't catch it during beta, players eventually will after release, and little things like geometry hiccups can be sorted out on a case-by-case basis and rolled out with simple patches. Lord knows why this was never done with FFXI, but the fact that most players know exactly what problem spots we're talking about shows that they wouldn't go unnoticed in FFXIV either. On top of that, I'm pretty sure the devs don't make an entire map and only check for problems after the fact; simple logic tells you that this sort of error-checking is done throughout the building process, because in the final product it's rather rare to have an issue. FFXI has a huge number of maps, yet the list of terrain hangups is tiny ("all the little glitches in terrain" makes it sound like the number is so huge that it's not worth the time to fix them). There are no places you can get permanently stuck in, either. If that happens, it's because of a physics or connection glitch, like falling through the docks in Kazham or Windurst, and I'm pretty sure jumping wouldn't help in any of these known situations anyway.

If you're going to be apprehensive, don't do so after putting words in my mouth; I never said I was opposed to jumping, I was making the case that if you have something that is very clearly a problem/bug/glitch/issue, it should be fixed rather than saying "Oh well now we can ignore it because we have jumping." If the devs want to add jumping as a wholesome gameplay mechanic rather than as an excuse to sweep glitches under the rug, then I'd be glad to have it. But that leads me to my next point:

Do you not understand that by adding a different gameplay mechanic, the devs would actually be creating more work for themselves not only in implementation, but by guaranteeing themselves a completely separate host of issues? Do you actually think that after maps have already been made without jumping in mind, the devs can just add jumping without having to go through each map and make sure players can't jump into places they're not supposed to and get caught on walls/ceilings/other terrain? Nevermind how jumping would factor into battles; can you jump during battle? If so, new problems are sure to come up that hadn't existed before. Will distance from the mob count vertically as well? That's a new button to map onto controllers and keyboards as well. The list goes on, and no doubt a significant amount of time would have to be devoted just to considering all the possibilities, let alone implementing solutions.

If anything sounds like it's going to take hundreds of hours of extra work and cause delays, it's the addition of jumping, not the forgoing of it.

Edited, Nov 23rd 2009 5:39pm by TraumaFox
#17 Nov 23 2009 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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TraumaFox wrote:
If testers don't catch it during beta, players eventually will after release, and little things like geometry hiccups can be sorted out on a case-by-case basis and rolled out with simple patches. Lord knows why this was never done with FFXI, but the fact that most players know exactly what problem spots we're talking about shows that they wouldn't go unnoticed in FFXIV either.

"It's so easy"

Yet, terrain glitches are rarely fixed, unless it gives the player some sort of advantage over other players... such as glitching yourself on top of a building and attacking mobs without the mobs being able to attack back.

How many thousands of bugs show up during an MMO's lifespan? Terrain bugs tend to be very low on the list of priority of a developer to fix.

World of Warcraft has been around for 5 years, and has had nearly 200,000 bugs during it's lifespan. Around 40,000 bugs a year that have been fixed or are waiting to be fixed. Blizzard also has 4,600 employees. A lot more than Square-Enix, which only has 3,275 employees spread across a lot more games than Blizzard.

These aren't trivial numbers. And while Square-Enix isn't as open with it's numbers as Blizzard Entertainment, you can rest assured that the number of bugs in FFXI is undoubtably comparable.

Less important bugs get ignored, simply because it isn't feasible to handle everything. Non-game-breaking terrain bugs are one of those things that get ignored.

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Nevermind how jumping would factor into battles; can you jump during battle? If so, new problems are sure to come up that hadn't existed before. Will distance from the mob count vertically as well? That's a new button to map onto controllers and keyboards as well.

If it was programmed the same way as Blizzard's game, that would be a negative. Jumping, for all intensive purposes, is a teleport in World of Warcraft. It's an animated event, during through the entire animation, your character is considered as standing in one spot, until it's feet hit the ground, at which point the character is considered teleported to the new location. There are no updates to a character's coordinates for the duration of a jump.
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#18 Nov 23 2009 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Karelyn wrote:
TruamaFox wrote:
Nevermind how jumping would factor into battles; can you jump during battle? If so, new problems are sure to come up that hadn't existed before. Will distance from the mob count vertically as well? That's a new button to map onto controllers and keyboards as well.

If it was programmed the same way as Blizzard's game, that would be a negative. Jumping, for all intensive purposes, is a teleport in World of Warcraft. It's an animated event, during through the entire animation, your character is considered as standing in one spot, until it's feet hit the ground, at which point the character is considered teleported to the new location. There are no updates to a character's coordinates for the duration of a jump.
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There's more to the story than that though. I do not know how Blizzard has handled their jumping, but I do know that your character doesn't teleport or jump straight through walls; that means we're talking about collision detection. Every game using a 3D environment has to deal with collision detection, but if you can jump, you have to take into account a third axis of possible collision points. Having smooth 2D environments with no unintentional snags is hard work, but handling jumping is equally hard. It is by no means a quick fix.
#19 Nov 23 2009 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Karelyn wrote:
If it was programmed the same way as Blizzard's game, that would be a negative. Jumping, for all intensive purposes, is a teleport in World of Warcraft. It's an animated event, during through the entire animation, your character is considered as standing in one spot, until it's feet hit the ground, at which point the character is considered teleported to the new location. There are no updates to a character's coordinates for the duration of a jump.
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There's more to the story than that though. I do not know how Blizzard has handled their jumping, but I do know that your character doesn't teleport or jump straight through walls; that means we're talking about collision detection. Every game using a 3D environment has to deal with collision detection, but if you can jump, you have to take into account a third axis of possible collision points. Having smooth 2D environments with no unintentional snags is hard work, but handling jumping is equally hard. It is by no means a quick fix.


It's hard to tell exactly how WoW handles jumping. Obviously the game isn't running a super robust physics engine, but I can say that I've seen other characters turn and move while in air; you can't change direction mid-jump, but if you jump straight up you can move forward or back mid-jump. This shows that mid-air position must be tracked and sent to the server to some degree. No doubt trajectory and other calculations beyond a simple static jumping animation (I know specifically what Karelyn is talking about here, but it seems not to be the case) are being done too, since falling does incorporate acceleration, and obviously falling damage is relative to how far you've fallen. It's probably fair to compare it to flying mounts, except instead of free air movement, gravity applies. In fact, IIRC, some flying mounts and/or druid flight form behave differently when in contact with the ground, which should show the level of detail put into the world's collision model.

This is all a bit of a side track, but it should hopefully drive home the point that jumping is not something developers can add to a game on a whim, unless they want shoddy results.
#20 Nov 25 2009 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
I'm guessing that for the most part, it's handled client side, but you can hit your head on things while jumping, so it definitely takes into account your vertical position. I doubt it takes into account any diagonal position, but you can jump to shoot over something that would otherwise be blocking your line of view. If you have an addon that checks distance though, and you jump, the distance doesn't momentarily increase.
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#21 Nov 25 2009 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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meltfire wrote:
where is the jump


In WoW.

I really don't get all this hype about jumping. Why do we need it? The only reason I can think of is getting unstuck, but taking time to put up invisible walls or a simple /unstuck command or such could fix that.
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#22 Dec 01 2009 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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lol, there used to be a terrain glitch in Valkurm Dunes that allowed you to walk through the trees in the beach to go under water. You could attack monsters from in the water and get them half way killed with ranged attacks or magic before they could get even close to you. Then, you just walk away a few steps and the monster would run back toward the beach. I lvled rng, blm, thf, war, sam, and rdm this way up to like lvl 25 without even needing to touch a party hahaha. It was fantastic, I'm pretty sure they fixed that glitch by now I did it on PS2.
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#23 Dec 01 2009 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually would welcome a jump if the game actually used it other than just getting unstuck or moving up stairs faster (which would still be nice). Maybe add platform aspects to dungeons or boss fights? If they don't actively use jumping then at least an action command would suffice, but god forbid should we have something similar to ordelle's cave (spelling?) where you have to find the magical tiny path to walk up steps.
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#24 Dec 03 2009 at 1:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Karelyn wrote:
for all intensive purposes

I believe you mean "for all intents and purposes"...
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