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#1 Dec 22 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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Was just reading Lovestospoon's post on guides when it got me thinking about if FFXIV will have a PC windowing facility and preferably a better one than FFXI. I remember when I first started playing FFXI, I had no guides and didnt even think that there would be so much information out there on the internet. I very quicky found Alla and then Wiki but I had to have my laptop next to me if I ever wanted to follow quest instructions 'live' or, and some of you will believe me here, actually print out web pages! (Recently I found two very large A4 spiral bound folders the other day packed with Sandoria quest information, maps and all sorts of things- it made me laugh). Eventually I heard about Windower - not legal and it contravened the user agreement, so I never liked to use it - but I did try it and it was way better than the one (eventually) provided by SE. I hope SE bring out a quick and easy windowing piece of software so that I can check online whenever I need to check a guide or map etc. I think following guides really did make me enjoy the game even more than I would if I had just been relying on trial and error or from in-game friends.
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#2 Dec 22 2009 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think the chances of SE using windowing software are pretty high. As for if it'll be any better...we can always hope. >_>
#3 Dec 22 2009 at 3:38 AM Rating: Good
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I'm positive SE learned their lesson from last time.
#4 Dec 22 2009 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd die from happiness if SE hired the windower team to make a windower and plugins for ffxiv <.<; They better not **** up though.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 7:40am by Deadgye
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#5 Dec 22 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Good
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I'm guessing SE have learnt from the past - the unofficial windower sprung up at least initially because people wanted that alt-tab ability, if they make things windowed from the outset - that demand's not going to be there for the unofficial.

No doubt things will be developed anyway.
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#6 Dec 22 2009 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
I'd die from happiness if SE hired the windower team to make a windower and plugins for ffxiv <.<; They better not @#%^ up though.
Allow fanmade plugins would make me giddy. There is no way the company itself can figure out everything that'd make the game more enjoyable, so they should just concede that point and let us do some of the work for ourselves to create a better overall experience.

It won't happen since its on a console as well, and God knows they'd whine about not having access to the same plugins and such. Oh well. SE shooting itself in the foot before even leaving the proverbial gun store, as it were.
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#7 Dec 22 2009 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It won't happen since its on a console as well, and God knows they'd whine about not having access to the same plugins and such. Oh well. SE shooting itself in the foot before even leaving the proverbial gun store, as it were.


Which is why I'd die happy if they hired the windower team, they'd no doubt be able to easily implement any of the plugins on the ps3 version when given the tools.
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#8 Dec 22 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quote:

It won't happen since its on a console as well, and God knows they'd whine about not having access to the same plugins and such. Oh well. SE shooting itself in the foot before even leaving the proverbial gun store, as it were.



Which is why I'd die happy if they hired the windower team, they'd no doubt be able to easily implement any of the plugins on the ps3 version when given the tools.


I really don't think anything more than what SE did for the FFXI windower is gonna happen. A windower with plugin support will make it easier to hack the game to make bots/cheats.

#9 Dec 22 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember reading in an interview that the default would be windowed. Who knows whether this is the official FFXI windowed(ie having the border) or the unofficial.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2009 1:00pm by valid
#10 Dec 23 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I really don't think anything more than what SE did for the FFXI windower is gonna happen. A windower with plugin support will make it easier to hack the game to make bots/cheats.


Just like being able to window the game makes it easier to hack/cheat amirite? Stop being ignorant.
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#11 Dec 23 2009 at 4:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cyiode wrote:
A windower with plugin support will make it easier to hack the game to make bots/cheats.
Not if it goes directly through the UI in an official check sort of way. I don't like to use the "World of Warcraft does it" excuse, but the template is right there. The argument is moot, though. Even before releasing the game the Playstation 3 is holding back it's potential. It isn't so much machine limitations, but limited accessibility. Even then, if they used the PSN and made it free downloads, we'd avoid that speed bump ...

...

But we know better than that.
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#12 Dec 23 2009 at 4:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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But we know better than that.


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#13 Dec 23 2009 at 5:23 AM Rating: Good
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as long as i can alt tab without it being buggy.. and maybe have something equivilant to the TP showing plugin of FFXI.. i'm happy.. the rest isnt really required.. (though a meter of some sort could be fun...)
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#14 Dec 23 2009 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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I think the problem with "Windowing" initially was that DX8 had problems with it, or rather that SE didn't want to spend the time learning how to unsync from fullscreen mode. There were games way back when that required you to load in fullscreen from the get go and Alt-Tabbing would not correctly refresh your default monitor settings. Lazy programming.

I have yet to find a modern MMO that does not let you Alt-Tab out of it and from I understand DX9+ makes it quite easy. Theres no reason why SE would not do this.
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#15 Dec 23 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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If the Windower provided by SE isn't good enough, I have no doubt in my mind someone will make one that is good enough.
#16 Dec 23 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm expecting that, if the windowed mode isn't acceptable, beta people will scream bloody murder so it is. Either that, or they'll keep it a secret so it'll launch v2.0 of "we wanted to window it better, but then we made these 86 unrelated plug-ins too."
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#17 Dec 23 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see plugins popping up for FF14 in no time at all if SE doesn't aggressively start combating hackers. Heck, I would write some myself if I found some things in FF14 that could easily be automated.
#18 Dec 23 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum wrote:
I can see plugins popping up for FF14 in no time at all if SE doesn't aggressively start combating hackers. Heck, I would write some myself if I found some things in FF14 that could easily be automated.


If FF14 has windower support from the get go, I'll probably be making some actool or autohotkey scripts right away to automate tasks. It's a pain to do that without windower support because every time you want to make a change to the script you have to alt-tab causing the game to close and probably log you out.

Also, I'm sure many hackers will be searching for memlocs using artmoney or a similar program, which is also easier to use when you can alt-tab out of the game. If the windower already has plugin in support that allows people to get information such as HP, MP, TP, the equipment they are wearing etc., it will make it even easier to find the memlocs because the plugin itself has to be able to have access to the memlocs. So if you find where the code for the plugin is stored, you can find out how it gets its memory addresses for all that information.

I'm not really sure how SE can combat this. Even if they don't have a windower, people will eventually make their own windower and also find memlocs for all the key data. All it does is slow people down a little.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 3:22pm by Cyiode
#19 Dec 23 2009 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Well, you run something like Wow's warden program that searches your memory for programs trying to access Wow's memory and then flag those people for human review or automating banning. Next, you remove the amount of information stored client side: in FFXI you had a hard-coded list of mobs that spawn in a zone stored client that included information when they last died, etcetc. You also want to remove how much you trust the client. The FFXI servers trusted the clients to tell the servers where they were -- this means that client can 'lie' and the server goes 'ok!' and then teleports a player to a new position that they couldn't get to by themselves (ie: anywhere that you had a stupid terrain puzzle). Similarly, a player's speed is stored client side and the player could set themselves to have chocobo speed or what have you. Finally, you remove incentives to cheat by removing things that could be easily scripted and taking away (or at the very least.. adding very many new types) grinds that make people want to script away instead of doing manually.
#20 Dec 23 2009 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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InsideTheAsylum,

Just to make it easy to read, these are the 3 things InsideTheAsylum suggests:

- Make a warden program to find any application that is running that is trying to access the game's memory locations. The warden program itself will eat up some resources and can probably be fooled, but its still better than nothing.

- Don't store anything on the client that can be used for cheating and that the server can't verify for correctness. Such as player position and speed.

- Don't make things in the game so tedious and boring that they can easily be automated. For ex. FFXI crafting.

All of those are good ideas. I hope SE actually does implement that stuff, but we'll see if it actually happens. They could have added that stuff to FFXI over the years, but never did (apart from patching up vulnerabilities to specific hacks). But this is a new game so maybe they will get it right this time.


#21 Dec 23 2009 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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That's all well and good, but considering they allow botting in XI, I doubt they'll care about it (and lesser/other forms of cheating) in XIV.

I'd love it if they did try to rid the game of cheaters, but sadly it's just not realistic when looking at the track record.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2009 9:13pm by Carrilei
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#22 Dec 23 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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You have to design anti-cheating things from the ground up (ie: how warden is built into the core of WoW) instead of trying to patch them later. Since they released it first for PS2 (and hacking the PS2 is far more difficult) and since it was their first online game, I can see how they weren't prepared to deal with 3rd party programs from the get go. (Actually I can see how they weren't prepared for a lot of stuff in FFXI -- it felt like they were shooting from the hip most of the time.) Hopefully they'll correct these issues with 14.
#23 Dec 23 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it's probably best to accept from the outset that someone somewhere will attempt to hack the game. And probably be successful. I doubt the people who do that sort of thing care if it is windowed or not.

I doubt SE would ***** up so badly and not make this game windowed this time around.

They don't really need to hire the Windower people, although I do think that is an excellent idea. All they have to do is figure out which of the plugins were the most popular, such as the on-screen timers and distance ones, and incorporate them into the UI they construct.

SE does learn from its mistakes, but I dunno, I think that they are very slow to implement anything from that learning.
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#24 Dec 24 2009 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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Dont forget about your ps3 fellow players. Yes ps3 has a browser, but i doubt window workso n ps3. Just a brady guide would be cool to have, yes info will be out on the internet, but whos honestly gnna sit at the release typing the guide on the internet....
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#25 Dec 24 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Good
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Lovestospoon wrote:
Dont forget about your ps3 fellow players. Yes ps3 has a browser, but i doubt window workso n ps3. Just a brady guide would be cool to have, yes info will be out on the internet, but whos honestly gnna sit at the release typing the guide on the internet....


You underestimate the fanaticism of Final Fantasy fans.
I expect to see people writing guides during Beta, and then releasing those guides to the public as soon as the game is released!
#26 Dec 24 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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Indeed. Look at Thottbot and WoW: BC beta. By the time the game was released, thottbot had almost a complete database for the game :P
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