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Targeting mobs in sequential orderFollow

#1 May 04 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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One in-game function I haven't seen people mention on these forums thus far is the ability to "paint a target".

Classic example: in FFXI Dynamis, you generally fought multiple mobs and you needed to designate a person who would select the order in which the mobs would be fought, and everyone else had to use an /assist macro in order to follow their instructions (or otherwise manually disengage, target, etc).

I think it was Aion which implemented the ability in parties for somebody to assign a numerical ordering on mobs so that everyone could tell what to target.

I think this sort of function would be very handy not just for leading events which involve multiple adds, but also situations like everyday partying for experience points when you get that addition on a pull.
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#2 May 04 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I think a lot of it comes down to making decisions inside the party, but it would be nice to have one person be able to set the order of which mobs are attacked when.

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#3 May 04 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually kinda like this idea. It would definitely make it easier to determine which mob is the current target, and also how to prepare for whichever target is coming up. Although, this is also something that is relatively easy to teach as well. As you run certain events on a regular basis (or similarly, partying in a certain "zone"), it would almost become second nature to know the proper target order.

In any case it would definitely help in situations when you might not trust everyone to follow the proper order, for instance in PUGs. I haven't played Aion but it makes me wonder if this idea was implemented as an auto-targeting system or more of just a call order that requires manual selection.
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#4 May 04 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Auto target is too easy (i'm talking it automatically attacks the next specified target, not some sort of assist macro those are ok). Visual recognition is extremely helpful and should be used, especially if we are going to be fighting as many mobs at a time as SE has mentioned. Even if it is as simple as WoW, where you could mark then with different colored/shaped icons. I think numbering is a little too easysauce as well.

Edited, May 4th 2010 7:02pm by burtonsnow
#5 May 04 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
Marking mobs is definitely nothing new to MMOs. Whether it's an explicit numerical marking system or icon based (ie. LOTRO/WoW) it can help to clearly indicate what was supposed to happen to which mob. Of course, time has shown that getting people to pay attention to the markings is another matter altogether, but for complex encounters with groups actually functioning as a team it can be an enormous asset. The main thing is that the application of the marks has to be fairly fluid. That's largely a function of the UI. It could be as simple as being able to bind certain marks to certain keys or something more intuitive. I can't imagine SE would release a game whereit's has been clearly stated (and repeated) that one of the facets will be "many vs. many" combat without some sort of marking system.

(I haven't played Aion so I've avoided making any specific references to their system of marking/etc, but the general principle holds true across the board current generation MMOs)
#6 May 04 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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You beat me to almost the exact thought. I'm figuring that with the party vs. party system that is being talked about by SE it would only be natural for the group to have some kind of order. I didn't mind the /assist macro too much, but if there is an improvement to be had I'm all ears.

I'd be all for the party leader, the tank, or even the puller (if they still have a place) being able to number the order with which you fight the mobs. But seeing as how people are already reluctant to lead and tanks are sometimes very difficult to find I don't know if giving them more responsibilities is the best idea.
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#7 May 04 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
ReiThor wrote:
You beat me to almost the exact thought. I'm figuring that with the party vs. party system that is being talked about by SE it would only be natural for the group to have some kind of order. I didn't mind the /assist macro too much, but if there is an improvement to be had I'm all ears.

I'd be all for the party leader, the tank, or even the puller (if they still have a place) being able to number the order with which you fight the mobs. But seeing as how people are already reluctant to lead and tanks are sometimes very difficult to find I don't know if giving them more responsibilities is the best idea.


As long as keybinds are user-assignable, I don't mind an /assist feature. It's what I'm familiar with. In terms of a kill order, it's usually easier to assist off the tank anyways, with marks just being a general guide (in case the moment you decide to bounce your target off the tank was the moment they had targeted something else to smack for a bit of extra threat to hold against healer aggro). For things like crowd control, that's where the marking system really shines because you can assign a mark/number/whatever to a particular target and assign one player to that target for CC. It's a lot more effective than, "So-and-so, CC the thing on the left," especially once you engage and things start moving around.
#8 May 04 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm beginning to wonder if groups of monsters might behave with a "hive" mentality. Such as the tank is tanking the whole group, and they respond to enmity as a group. Then, it's up to the DD's/Mages/etc. to focus on their AOE attacks, and attack the group like it's a whole, instead of it's individual pieces. If you're spreading your attacks around as AOE, perhaps the hate issue will resolve itself...

Edit: Of course with the ability to have 15 people in one party, it then becomes possible to have 2 or 3 tanks splitting the groups off... lots of possibilities anyway :)

Just a thought.

Edited, May 4th 2010 5:45pm by LebargeX
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#9 May 04 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
LebargeX wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if groups of monsters might behave with a "hive" mentality. Such as the tank is tanking the whole group, and they respond to enmity as a group. Then, it's up to the DD's/Mages/etc. to focus on their AOE attacks, and attack the group like it's a whole, instead of it's individual pieces. If you're spreading your attacks around as AOE, perhaps the hate issue will resolve itself...

Just a thought.


The cries and moans would be audible from North America to Japan. WoW has been heavily criticized for the way its most recent expansion turned into an "all AoE, all the time" scenario. As a result, they're planning on tuning encounters in the next expansion to get back to the selective CC/AoE scenarios from before. A lot of people find it rather dull when the tank charges in, rounds up a pack of mobs, and then everyone just drops AoE on them. Even in that case, every mob has its own individual threat table. If you're talking hive behavior with one linked threat table and heavy use of AoE, folks would get bored awfully fast.
#10 May 04 2010 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The cries and moans would be audible from North America to Japan. WoW has been heavily criticized for the way its most recent expansion turned into an "all AoE, all the time" scenario. As a result, they're planning on tuning encounters in the next expansion to get back to the selective CC/AoE scenarios from before. A lot of people find it rather dull when the tank charges in, rounds up a pack of mobs, and then everyone just drops AoE on them. Even in that case, every mob has its own individual threat table. If you're talking hive behavior with one linked threat table and heavy use of AoE, folks would get bored awfully fast.


When I first heard that XIV was going to be so much more distance related regarding your job and AoE attacks etc. I didn't like the idea too much. I was never a fan of games where your own team mates could hit you. But I can see where it has a place in XIV. No I still don't like it, but I completely understand why it might be there.

Edited, May 4th 2010 9:01pm by ReiThor
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#11 May 04 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:

The cries and moans would be audible from North America to Japan. WoW has been heavily criticized for the way its most recent expansion turned into an "all AoE, all the time" scenario. As a result, they're planning on tuning encounters in the next expansion to get back to the selective CC/AoE scenarios from before. A lot of people find it rather dull when the tank charges in, rounds up a pack of mobs, and then everyone just drops AoE on them. Even in that case, every mob has its own individual threat table. If you're talking hive behavior with one linked threat table and heavy use of AoE, folks would get bored awfully fast.


When I first heard that XIV was going to be so much more distance related regarding your job and AoE attacks etc. I didn't like the idea too much. I was never a fan of games where your own team mates could hit you. But I can see where it has a place in XIV. No I still don't like it, but I completely understand why it might be there.


I haven't seen any indication that friendly fire will be a potential issue in FFXIV. AoE was present in FFXI but hardly ever used because the tools to use it properly were never really implemented, and the need for it was never really all that significant. The distance aspect I would imagine is more a way for them to produce the "cerebral" aspect to combat. It's a little more to think about than simply plunking your character within striking range and wailing away unless your target moves. And while I'm sure there will be situations in many vs. many combat where AoE may not be practical, it is awfully fun as a damage class to watch numbers flying all over your screen when you land a juicy AoE on a large cluster of mobs.
#12 May 04 2010 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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SE wants to encourage AoE based fights though right? or well, at least attacking multiple mobs at once at least. Isn't Thaumaturge AoE attack based or something? well I just remember that cone shape range of attack it showed for them.

And Lancer has that 'skewer' though enemies with there lance. I mean, you have to have several forms of AoE attacks in this game if they really want to play up the 'party vs party' aspect of fights right?
#13 May 04 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The cries and moans would be audible from North America to Japan. WoW has been heavily criticized for the way its most recent expansion turned into an "all AoE, all the time" scenario. As a result, they're planning on tuning encounters in the next expansion to get back to the selective CC/AoE scenarios from before. A lot of people find it rather dull when the tank charges in, rounds up a pack of mobs, and then everyone just drops AoE on them. Even in that case, every mob has its own individual threat table. If you're talking hive behavior with one linked threat table and heavy use of AoE, folks would get bored awfully fast.


Ah, I never played WoW, so didn't know it worked that way... I've been away from MMO's (FFXI) for about 5 years now.

I can definitely see how what you're presenting would get kind of boring. Why bother making a group of mobs to fight if they all act like one big mob, right?

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Character: Urzol Thrush
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Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#14 May 04 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I haven't seen any indication that friendly fire will be a potential issue in FFXIV. AoE was present in FFXI but hardly ever used because the tools to use it properly were never really implemented, and the need for it was never really all that significant. The distance aspect I would imagine is more a way for them to produce the "cerebral" aspect to combat. It's a little more to think about than simply plunking your character within striking range and wailing away unless your target moves. And while I'm sure there will be situations in many vs. many combat where AoE may not be practical, it is awfully fun as a damage class to watch numbers flying all over your screen when you land a juicy AoE on a large cluster of mobs.


That was the other side of the argument, If it's a magic attack then you should be able to will your magic not to affect those on your side of the fight. If it's a physical attack.... I dunno, it's a RPG just pretend you're so awesome with your chosen weapon that you bent it around your teammate and hit your target.
Either way, I don't like the idea of being able to hit people in your group. It has too much potential to turn sour. "Why did you attack that goblin?!!? We barely survived! Everyone get that noob!"
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The more I train, the harder I get. The harder I get, the more lethal I am. The more lethal I am, the fewer opponents. The fewer opponents, the less to lose. The less to lose, the more I let up. The more I let up, the more room for mistakes. The more room for mistakes, the more I train.

#15 May 04 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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There is no way mobs will act with hive mentality because honestly like arelius said, it would get boring fast, and on top of this when you have a group of 15 people in a single party, I would imagine its for those large group vs. group fights in which you would most likely need 2 or 3 tanks and mages taking care to ensure certain people stay alive - i think AOE spamming with one tank is mindless and non-rewarding and I don't see this game taking that route, of course, however, I am speculating and if it did I wold be sorely disappointed. On a side note: this game uses "cone" shape AOE, is this the case with WoW or any other MMO if anyone knows? just curious.
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#16 May 04 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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And PS: there wont be friendly fire...where is this coming from? lol, it wasn't in FFXI and it wont be here and I can say this with 99.9% surity.
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#17 May 04 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
SolidMack wrote:
There is no way mobs will act with hive mentality because honestly like arelius said, it would get boring fast, and on top of this when you have a group of 15 people in a single party, I would imagine its for those large group vs. group fights in which you would most likely need 2 or 3 tanks and mages taking care to ensure certain people stay alive - i think AOE spamming with one tank is mindless and non-rewarding and I don't see this game taking that route, of course, however, I am speculating and if it did I wold be sorely disappointed. On a side note: this game uses "cone" shape AOE, is this the case with WoW or any other MMO if anyone knows? just curious.


FFXIV will use cone and full-circle AoE. WoW uses both as well. Cone AoE is a bit more difficult to use effectively because it has a much more confined area in which to work its destructive goodness, but that adds another component to the "positioning" layer of combat in the game.
#18 May 06 2010 at 5:37 AM Rating: Good
Since we are discussing full circle and cone. Have the devs or the leaks said anything about lances or anything else being able to pierce through a mob to a mob directly behind it like in tactics?
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#19 May 06 2010 at 5:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I think I read somewhere that Lancer has an attack(s) that will be AOE cone, I know Archer does for sure now where it shoots an arrow and damages all enemies in the arrows path. I think AOE and positioning will play a very huge role in this game.
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#20 May 06 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Lubriderm the Hand wrote:
Since we are discussing full circle and cone. Have the devs or the leaks said anything about lances or anything else being able to pierce through a mob to a mob directly behind it like in tactics?

Square-Enyx wrote:
Weapon skills (Lancer):
Skewer: Run your enemies through, increasing attack power and dealing piercing damage to all enemies between you and the target. Slows non-flying targets.

This one hits everything between you and your target, so it's a piercing attack that hits multiple enemies.
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