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More defined roles ~Follow

#1 Jan 10 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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One of the really nice things about FFXIV is the ability to customize your characters equipped moves, however with that said a couple classes could use to have their roles be more defined~

For example Marauder and Lancer share similar roles, but marauder also sort of shares roles with gladiator.
Example:
Marauder does less damage than Lancer (Me and a lancer both having 140 strength and using rank 48 weapons the lancer consistently deals more DPS)
Marauder has the most HP in the game, and heavy armor, but no shield
Marauder has very heavy hate moves like Warmonger
Marauder has the highest parry rate
Marauder can't tank as well as a pugilist in terms of agro gain, and it can't tank as well as a gladiator in terms of durability
Marauder has more AoEs than other classes - A BAD THING UNFORTUNATELY.

Another one are the mages:
Con and Thm both have heals, nukes, and aoes in each, as well as revive. They buff in different ways, and nuke and heal in different ways, but the classes are still rather similar, you can usually swap one for the other. Right now they are kind of like Scholar and Red Mage. They even use the same kind of weapons ... come on
A main thing is looking at a CON and a THM is you can barely tell them apart in terms of appearance. In FFXI it was very obvious what job they were even with 20 jobs!



All classes do have their roles, but what I'm saying is they could be a little more defined -

Here's kind of what I'd like to see to change a few things -
Giving Marauder dual axes :D (Similar to how PUG hand to hand is two hits, would just be an Axe with two hits instead of one)
Increase marauder base damage and cone damage (This would make marauder more of an aoe/adds tank)
Allowing AoE offensive to be useful outside of levequests so that Marauder and mages can AoE
Give lancer a Jump ability so they can reset their agro in a cool way
Give pugilist their **** steal lol. You tricked them now live up to it!
Give marauder a provoke earlier on, they get AoE taunts and provokes but nothing to get newbie marauders used to agro. Their rank (46 i think) ability is an aoe taunt, and warmonger does a great job pulling in agro from other mobs. They also have Defender, so its obvious they intend on marauder doing some tanking, but what good is an aoe taunt when AoE is a bad thing?

There is a reason marauder is one of the least played classes according to lodestone and ffxivpro and that's because its role in the party is not very well defined. It's falling into the same hole Shadow Knight fell into in Everquest 2 where it's useful and powerful with good players, but doesn't have that "we need a marauder !!" feeling yet.


**** maybe the only way to fix the issue I'm commenting on is to separate classes from their weapons - IE allow a Thm to use a sword for example (which would make the addition of other classes much easier!)
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#2 Jan 10 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know about you, but I love having a Marauder in my group for their weapon skills. Since BRs seem to be easier (read: faster to set up) with DoW classes, some variety on the front line is always a good thing IMO. It helps to get those debuffs stacked with larger variations of weapon skill available.
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#3 Jan 10 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ehh...what I'm reading is, "classes are the same but different, so buff marauder."

When SE gave us the class information and made it clear that marauder was set to be an AoE melee class, I took that to be an indication that SE was actually going to make AoE friendly encounters. What they did instead was fill the zones with even non-aggressive monsters that like to follow you around making consistent use of AoE a difficult scenario. They restricted your ability to tag multiple mobs while solo or in a group to mobs that are in their own party. They excluded instanced content that they could have tuned to make AoE combat truly viable and entertaining. They built the classes with ample opportunity to be diverse on their own and then blended with other classes, they just didn't provide the content that would allow you to take advantage of it.
#4 Jan 10 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh I definitely agree with that. Marauder gains TP really fast and can queue up very quickly.

I'm not saying Marauder is bad, heck I'm at the last level of marauder. It's a fun class. However that doesn't mean it's role is very well defined.
You know a gladiator is a tank, you know an archer is a DD, you know a marauder is a xxxxxx
If people can have a discussion on what marauder is, it's not very well defined. It's kind of a DD, kind of a tank, but it's not a solid "marauder is this", and a few updates to the class would easily change that.

Mar also has good incapacitation power :D

But I'm getting the same feeling I got when I played Shadow Knight on EQ2 - which is I know why I enjoy the class, but other people don't know why they NEED it except to fill a party slot.

Some verification? www.ffxivpro.com look at the # of 50 marauders vs other classes.
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#5 Jan 10 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Ehh...what I'm reading is, "classes are the same but different, so buff marauder."

When SE gave us the class information and made it clear that marauder was set to be an AoE melee class, I took that to be an indication that SE was actually going to make AoE friendly encounters. What they did instead was fill the zones with even non-aggressive monsters that like to follow you around making consistent use of AoE a difficult scenario. They restricted your ability to tag multiple mobs while solo or in a group to mobs that are in their own party. They excluded instanced content that they could have tuned to make AoE combat truly viable and entertaining. They built the classes with ample opportunity to be diverse on their own and then blended with other classes, they just didn't provide the content that would allow you to take advantage of it.


I agree with this, MRD has cool abilities for content not yet implemented. Or they will just change its AOE abilities. Or change how AOE works.
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#6 Jan 10 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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I disagree,

Each class is unique because of afinity, armor type, weapon type/damage and class only skills.
Just because each class is "flexible" enough on its own, does not mean its not "defined" enough to stand on its own.

The reason Marauder stands on its own as a class and not just something all the other classes level for the skills it has, is that Marauder is the "best" at the skills it gets. Threat gain, steadfast, HP etc... all make it a very strong class on its own.

Leveling it for the skills to use on another class (even with afinity trait at 36) isnt nearly effective as being on Marauder to do those things you listed.

Marauder the best at threat gain, still has the most HP, and still does the most slashing damage because its weapons main damage type is slashing.

Conj/thaum are also "flexible" but Conjurer is better at healing due to the nature of how its AoE works, Spiritbind has a shorter cooldown on Conj than using it on Thaum, and Enmity reduction skills that are less useful on thaum and also have a longer cooldown.

If I had both Thaum and Conj leveld, I would be switching between them depending on the fight because each class is better for something different than the other class;

Thaum:
Debuffing
Astral and Umbral nuking
Healing with HoT's (conal ONLY!)

Conj:
Elemental nuking
Healing for larger numbers with no Hot


And even though all skills can be used on all classes, it defiantly does not make using those skills cross-class effective as being on the class they are intended for, even with afinity.

In the end, the class you choose as your "main" can be as defined or as broad as you want it to be, you just have to level other classes for the skills to make it that way. You won't be as effective as being on the class the skills were intended for though. Making each class "defined" enough for me.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:23pm by DoctorMog

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:27pm by DoctorMog
#7 Jan 10 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Ehh...what I'm reading is, "classes are the same but different, so buff marauder."

When SE gave us the class information and made it clear that marauder was set to be an AoE melee class, I took that to be an indication that SE was actually going to make AoE friendly encounters. What they did instead was fill the zones with even non-aggressive monsters that like to follow you around making consistent use of AoE a difficult scenario. They restricted your ability to tag multiple mobs while solo or in a group to mobs that are in their own party. They excluded instanced content that they could have tuned to make AoE combat truly viable and entertaining. They built the classes with ample opportunity to be diverse on their own and then blended with other classes, they just didn't provide the content that would allow you to take advantage of it.


That's kind of what I'm saying. Marauder sort of has a role, but I listed how I wanted them to really define it - One of the primary focus being to fix AoEs.

and I just want dual axes cuz it'd be cool and be like FFXI :P
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#8 Jan 10 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ever considered that it's up to you to add the skills that will define your role instead of SE adding MAR skills that define every marauder? If you want MAR to tank, add provoke, taunt, and war drum. If you want to play more of a support role, add some debuff spells, etc.

I know in my LS, we have pretty much unofficially given certain players roles rather than define roles by class. I think that's SE's real intention.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:27pm by Jefro420
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#9 Jan 10 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Well Mog I don't disagree with what you said, nor did I try to make that statement.
I was just saying that they could use a little bit more to make them apart. The classes all have their things that make them unique.

Defender II is a great ability for example, and Storm's Path is a great AoE/Taunt and Iron Tempest is one of the largest range AoE attacks in the game.

What good are those moves in an exp grind? On mosshorn is one of the few fights I get to use those abilities outside of leve NMs.


Look on the Marauder section of this forum, even other marauders aren't quite sure what this classes main role is. It's an adaptive class, and a powerful class.

I use it as a tank, and a dps, and on leves an aoe tank. That works for me, as it's a very flexible class.
Perhaps a good change to the class would be changing the conditions for Steadfast, right now it's stand still for about 6 seconds, which can be difficult. For example, running away from Moles when they go underground to avoid their AOE. Fights don't last very long in this game.


Don't get the wrong idea though, this isn't a qq thread it's a "this class has a lot of abilities that don't work with the current system the way its designed, heres a few ways it could be made better, and how other classes could use some moves to differentiate themselves more" thread.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:31pm by Eadieni
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#10 Jan 10 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Eadieni wrote:

Defender II is a great ability for example, and Storm's Path is a great AoE/Taunt and Iron Tempest is one of the largest range AoE attacks in the game.

What good are those moves in an exp grind? On mosshorn is one of the few fights I get to use those abilities outside of leve NMs.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:31pm by Eadieni


Not to sound rude, but this game isn't finished yet, and incorporating skills into a class that isn't good in an "exp grind" right now doesn't mean its not intended for the class at all. If the only skills we got were skills for exping, we would have standard attack and a weaponskill.

Those skills will prove useful down the road, and incorporating them now is a good idea rather than down the road.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:35pm by DoctorMog
#11 Jan 10 2011 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a marauder 27 and let me say, the system as it is doesn't support a job like marauder.
We can only attack grouped mobs at the same time if we want SP. Yet we can still hit mobs outside the group. We do leves with big mob groups at times, standing on top of enemies unrelated to the mission or with goats that follow you around.

I'm not sure wtf was SE thinking when desgining a completely AOE based job to then make every possible way to hinder its AOE capabilities possibly.

Marauder is basically a smoker locked in a smoke free room.

Then there's the set of skills... if you go and check the marauder forums you'll see a thread discussing how the job basically dies at 36. Its like the people who were designing it just got distracted midway through picking its skills and moved on to better things.

Also, marauder should get two handed swords because I say so.

But I do agree, roles should be more defined. Right now I sometimes forget whether I'm a con or a thm since both my jobs have the same level and both wield almost identical weapons.
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#12 Jan 10 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
Um Lancer has alot of enfeeblements, MRD benefits from standing in 1 place... I'm just saying.

IMO LNC and ARC are more similar than LNC and MRD. Not that I have alot of experience, but from parties and the little time I've spent with those classes that's how I see it.
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#13 Jan 10 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:

I'm not sure wtf was SE thinking when desgining a completely AOE based job to then make every possible way to hinder its AOE capabilities possibly.


Behest, levequests, NM's, Faction leves etc..


Everything except standard world grinding comes in groups of claimed mobs.

Aoe is useful, just not for world grinding.
#14 Jan 10 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Well what we discussed in LS one time was how it'd be cool to give Gladiators two handed swords for the times they aren't the main tank, and Marauders dual axes (and give em double the parry rate but lower damage, and take up 1 item slot like PUG weapons, thus being more of a tank build without giving them a shield and replacing gladiator).

Majidah Sihaam that was my general feeling though was that after 36 it was painful to level up this class because it didn't feel rewarding anymore. Once you get your Axemanship ability and stuff.

After 36 you gain only one ability you don't have already, which is an AoE attack / provoke. Useful in the current state of the game huh? (everything else is an upgrade to what you have already).


Maim is a very cool move, by far the most powerful. But guess what? other classes can use it and it deals more damage on a lancer lol.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 5:47pm by Eadieni
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#15 Jan 10 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Eadieni wrote:

After 36 you gain only one ability you don't have already, which is an AoE attack / provoke. Useful in the current state of the game huh?



If you are referring to full swing or storms path, (both are similar, but storms path is 360degrees)

And I can think of quite a few times
"Attack with your axe, dealing slashing damage to enemies in a cone before you and increasing enmity."
Would be very useful.

Especially in leves, behest, NM's...

Tanking adds when you have 1 tank, not being able to use warmonger because it is a shield skill makes those 2 skills extremely useful imo.
#16 Jan 10 2011 at 5:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eadieni wrote:
Oh I definitely agree with that. Marauder gains TP really fast and can queue up very quickly.

I'm not saying Marauder is bad, heck I'm at the last level of marauder. It's a fun class. However that doesn't mean it's role is very well defined.
You know a gladiator is a tank, you know an archer is a DD, you know a marauder is a xxxxxx
If people can have a discussion on what marauder is, it's not very well defined. It's kind of a DD, kind of a tank, but it's not a solid "marauder is this", and a few updates to the class would easily change that.

Mar also has good incapacitation power :D

But I'm getting the same feeling I got when I played Shadow Knight on EQ2 - which is I know why I enjoy the class, but other people don't know why they NEED it except to fill a party slot.

Some verification? www.ffxivpro.com look at the # of 50 marauders vs other classes.


Mrd may get the TP faster, but the Stamina bar seems to fill slower and the Abilities uses more of it. I fought along side a Pug the other day and it seem he was hitting three times for my every one swing, but I love playing Mrd.
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#17 Jan 10 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Eadieni wrote:

After 36 you gain only one ability you don't have already, which is an AoE attack / provoke. Useful in the current state of the game huh?



If you are referring to full swing or storms path, (both are similar, but storms path is 360degrees)

And I can think of quite a few times
"Attack with your axe, dealing slashing damage to enemies in a cone before you and increasing enmity."
Would be very useful.

Especially in leves, behest, NM's...

Tanking adds when you have 1 tank, not being able to use warmonger because it is a shield skill makes those 2 skills extremely useful imo.

Warmonger is a Marauder skill not shield skill and it's usable by everyone.

See http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/abilitylist.html?name=&rank_low=&rank_high=&class=4&equip=1&order_by= for verification. Rank 30.


Full Swing is an upgraded version of Broad Swing purchasable around rank 30 for marauder marks, and it has a huge stamina cost not really worth it.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 6:09pm by Eadieni
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#18 Jan 10 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry, meant the rank 30 shield skill.*
#19 Jan 10 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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Thornpaw wrote:
Mrd may get the TP faster, but the Stamina bar seems to fill slower and the Abilities uses more of it. I fought along side a Pug the other day and it seem he was hitting three times for my every one swing, but I love playing Mrd.


That.

My experience with mrd is that it is a slow class (that axe is frikken heavy), but doesn't show it in the damage we deal. AoE is great in very specific situations (already mentioned), and that seems pretty class-defining to me.

While I'd like to see more damage per strike so it actually looks like I'm doing something other than exactly what the guy next to me is, only slower, I can live with it for now if I know I'll be rewarded later on for it (better higher rank skills, abilities, so on). Marauder dabbles in several things and does them adequately, but to me only really stands out in its niche role as AoE physical attacker.

In the larger sense, I like the "build your own class" ethic within the armory system in concept. However I would still like to see things that let a class stand out more. I agree I'd like to see a steal ability for pugilists, jump for lancers (both of which I fully expect to see eventually), greatswords for glad (or possibly fencer, if that class gets implemented). And I would like a nice, big smash attack for Marauder in the higher ranks.

One last thing on MRD: looks like it's predominantly slashing and blunt. Sometimes more blunt than slashing (our r50 axe is 60 blunt/40 slash). That's why I keep pug WS as backup, they do decent damage even cross class.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 8:39pm by pigiron
#20 Jan 10 2011 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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^it was the same problem in FFXI, until they finally tweaked things a bit. the 2h weapon users hit for barely more then the 1h weapon users and also attacked much much slower. I always found it odd that a 1h weapon user could hit for 75%+ the damage of a 2h weapon user, but then also swing 4+ times faster. It's never really been balanced.

Personally, I would think that someone with a big weapon would hit for A LOT more then someone with a smaller weapon. Even when they do, it doesn't seem to matter when the faster person with a small weapon is still pumping out more damage with faster swings.
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#21 Jan 10 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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I don't agree with having more defined roles. I think they are very defined but remember the theme is customization. SE has stated that over and over. We're meant to specialize our characters. If you build a balanced build you can swing between specializations when needed. 

I follow a system similar to DrMogs point allotment explanation and find it allows me to swing between jobs and specializations fairly easily.

I also play MRD and I have found that the effectiveness of MRD depends on the party set up and my specialization. MRDs passive ability requires him to stay still while attacking and this is affected by hate management. If my party has a tank that is having trouble keeping hate I will switch to a back up tank role using the AoE and enmity abilities to keep the mobs up front with the melee and away from the mages and archer. If the tank can keep hate very well I'll switch to a dps role. Mind you I can do this with pretty much one reassignment of points because I start with a balanced build. I also reassign elemental points based on what we're fighting for the evening. 

This is also why MRD can wear str, dex or vit adding gear.

This specialization swinging is also very effective for the mage classes. Especially with the elemental point allotment.

It doesn't work as well with LNC, ARC or GLD because their roles are pretty well defined at this point. But they can swing their elemental points based on he mob as well.

As far as AoE being called a bad idea because of adds and mob congestion, either clear out mobs that will add or have archer pull mobs to a safe spot. This was pretty standard practice in ffxi.

Players need to also learn how to use their AoE abilities/spells. I find in most parties the mages or the archer will spam AoEs or huge damage nukes and attacks without care of adds or hate management. I had an archer die about 25 times the other night within about 2 hours because of this, even after explaining to him multiple time why he kept dying he continued to commit suicide. The reason for not caring about adds or hate management is because there is no death penalty.

I find that in this game, strategy hasn't taken hold yet and people are just huddling in a small area and attacking and nuking, paying no attention to support abilities, player positioning or any sort of strategy. This is in part due the lack of a fear of death. If you're afraid of dying you're more likely to start with a strategy and nit just zerg the **** out of mobs

Player position plays a HUGE role in fights as well. It affects accuracy, hate control and over all flow of a battle.

See this image

I believe once people start grasping the fundamentals of the game and establishing/understanding what each class can and can't do and learning the limits and effectiveness of the support abilities, people will see that there are in fact very defined roles and fights will start following a certain structure and strategy much like in ffxi.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 11:50pm by hungerforce
#22 Jan 10 2011 at 11:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a catch 22, sort of.

1. We need more content to define these roles (which will take time) and 2. There are a lot of possible combinations that dilute the individual classes.

I envisioned that in NM fights you'd stick with your classes main abilities, but in solo play you have the freedom to mix and match. Small parties could benefit from sharing abilities, but there's no reason to party or most of us just haven't got around to doing it.

I think SE wanted people to have their cake and eat it too; they wanted the NIN/THFs of the world to have their fun as well as the WAR/WHM. Unfortunately there's a cost there and that's the lack of definition.

In the end it's hard to say. I'm not fond of any of the classes at the moment so maybe this is a reason why I'm not feeling connected to my character; PUG is my favorite but only due to attrition. I think some definition of the classes will come in time but I don't think you'll have that sort of solid FFXI type classes, until more content is here, or there is some sort of limitation on abilities.
#23 Jan 11 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I think some of you guys are missing the point off the job system as it is currently laid out. We already have clearly defined roles.
LNC, ARC, MRD, PUG: DD
GLD: Tank
CON: DD Mage
THM: Support

That's it, it doesn't get any simplier than that. Now you can make a MRD a tnak but why? When a GLD is better. You can make a GLD a DD but why when there are other jobs that are better. The reason why there are Hate moves on both PUG and MRD and GLD is because SE doesn't want you to just level GLD to be a tank. To be the best tank you'll need to level both MRD and PUG probably past r50 if we ever get that high. If you want to be the best CON you have to have THM leveled as well and vice versa for the THM. Now the DoM can get away with this a bit more than the DoW, but...it's still the same. This system is a time sync. All the jobs have skills that benefit the others because SE wants us to level all the jobs. Imigane in XI is a level 75 RDM got refresh but once you got it any job could use it like this game, guess what...we ALL would have leveled RDM in XI.

GLD is a tank job in this game, those who want to make it something else you're doing it wrong. MRD can be an off tank but why do that when you could have another GLD off tank. Kind of like in XI when we had x2 PLD to tank. We didn;t have a PLD and WAR combo all the time, why because PLD was better at tanking. Same in this game, GLD is better at tanking. MRD will eventually be a big time DD, You'll probably see alot of MRD and LNCs in shells than you'll have some ARC and PUG thrown in the mix.

You want your MRD to feel like a MRD, rank upLNC, PUG, and ARC get all the atk buffs those jobs have to offer. For solo play rank up the mage classes to r20, maybe higher.

This class system is nothing but a time sync. Pure and simple.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 12:29pm by EzellLangor
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